Is this the end of Muzzeload season as it's been?

[Bowfin]

Have him hunt shotgun zone with it during regular firearms season! He can even scope it too!

I know more than one trophy hunter who long ago went to using a scoped muzzleloader for sniping long range rut stupid bucks in farm country during regular firearms because the modern muzzleloader was legal but a 30/06 wasn't.

Everyone can still use their inlines, scoped even. Just will be during regular firearms season. This is an option that has been available to everyone for decades.

lakevet

Muzzy in a shotgun zone is a no go. We spend rifle season north of your neck of the woods in the "Chip" sitting with our centerfires. My son is fifth generation in the family deer camp which started in the 1930's. When they made it legal to hunt both the rifle and muzzy season, I bought a T/C Encore and my dad, brother, and sister-in-law all bought T/C Omegas. We now have a 9 year tradition of spending muzzy season in the woods north of Duluth.

Hunting for me isn't about the particular weapon I use but the fun of the hunt and tradition. It doesn't matter if it's bow, rifle, muzzy or spear season. Yes, I'd probably buy a spear license if they made one in order to extend the season. If they would have restricted us to flintlocks in the first place, that would have been fine, but they didn't. I don't appreciate politician's being able to effect my pocketbook on a whim by suddenly changing the rules.

[lakevet]

Muzzy in a shotgun zone is a no go. We spend rifle season north of your neck of the woods in the "Chip" sitting with our centerfires. My son is fifth generation in the family deer camp which started in the 1930's. When they made it legal to hunt both the rifle and muzzy season, I bought a T/C Encore and my dad, brother, and sister-in-law all bought T/C Omegas. We now have a 9 year tradition of spending muzzy season in the woods north of Duluth.

Hunting for me isn't about the particular weapon I use but the fun of the hunt and tradition. It doesn't matter if it's bow, rifle, muzzy or spear season. Yes, I'd probably buy a spear license if they made one in order to extend the season. If they would have restricted us to flintlocks in the first place, that would have been fine, but they didn't. I don't appreciate politician's being able to effect my pocketbook on a whim by suddenly changing the rules.

Bowfin,

2011 hunting regulations handbook p.78

"Rifle-Shotgun Boundary

In the shotgun zone (see map on the back of the large, deer zone

map, available separately), deer hunters may use only legal shotguns

loaded with single-slug shotgun shells, legal muzzleloading long guns,

or legal handguns."

So those with inlines can still use them, even scope them if they want, in shotgun zone.

There are basically two sides or approaches, in my opinion, to the muzzleloader season opinions.

1) Have a separate distinct season defined by the weapon (cap or flintlock, open sights) and a low hunter density hunt experience that is a step back to a different era and experience

2) Have a season that allows me to basically extend my regular firearms season experience in every way with a weapon of long range and reliability of the best possible technology.

As to traditions, especially family traditions, they are core to our hunting also. Glad you guys have the long tradition you have. Ours started in the 1880's in Minnesota on the same land we hunt today.

Again muzzleloaders ARE legal in shotgun zone. Your investment can still be used in regular season. Those that want scopes have a season where they can use them. It just is a little more of a crowded season .

lakevet

[Spike76]

Lakevet, whats wrong with the regs the way they are? Why are a few trying to change the regs for themselves? The inlines, and the regs for them, have been working great. If the inlines were hurting the deer herd, then maybe we could look into ways to improve it. If you are a deer hunter like me, you will realize that we have to work together to keep deer hunting, and not fight amoungst ourselves, but against the non hunters. Use your primitive ways and be happy. If you had to use inlines in the muzzle season, then you can complain. What if they banned all motors over 10 horse for fishing? It might be too late because so many have bought larger motors.

[lakevet]

Lakevet, whats wrong with the regs the way they are? Why are a few trying to change the regs for themselves? The inlines, and the regs for them, have been working great. If the inlines were hurting the deer herd, then maybe we could look into ways to improve it. If you are a deer hunter like me, you will realize that we have to work together to keep deer hunting, and not fight amoungst ourselves, but against the non hunters. Use your primitive ways and be happy. If you had to use inlines in the muzzle season, then you can complain. What if they banned all motors over 10 horse for fishing? It might be too late because so many have bought larger motors.

Two thoughts.

1) There are always a few wanting to change things for themselves. Some of those want to change the season to allow scopes. Bills to ban "modern" muzzleloaders having regularly appeared as a legislative tactic and counter to the persistent and repeated bills to scope muzzleloaders during muzzleloader season. So far, in past years it has resulted in a "I'll drop my bill if you drop yours" outcome. I venture that if the "I wanna scope" crowd stopped introducing bills then the "I want it super primitive" would also stop. However, each time that shooter buck walks out at 200 yards, the "gotta get a scope" guy gets frustrated and pushes for change. The fact that he already had the regular firearms season to use a long range scoped weapon and the buck survived doesn't mean squat. He wants "opportunity" like he sees year round on the hunting shows. He wants another 16 days with a 250 yard weapon to tag that animal that outwitted him during regular season. This is one time where SOME QDMA guys have trouble saying "let em go, let him grow"! They already successfully changed some of the long standing original regulations by being able to hunt that buck all seasons, thus dismantling the "choose either regular firearms or muzzleloader". This regulation was established and regarded as critical by the previous DNR managers to prevent muzzleloaders from over harvesting the herd, even in SW MN where Lou C says the herd is "vulnerable" to over harvest by muzzleloaders. No other regulation/lotteries/permits were needed. Simple, effective and functioned perfectly for YEARS. New generation of managers come in and it has been constant change and tinkering and overharvest in the SW , additional restrictions on what can be harvested, with talk of possibly more restrictions if scopes are allowed,etc.

2) Many would love to fish the BWCA with a fully rigged Ranger boat with all the bells and whistles after sleeping in a waterfront cabin with indoor plumbing and air conditioning. Some want a place and time when they can get away from the modern world. While technology still has crept in (kevlar canoes, goretex raingear), it still is no motors period. Even then the BWCA is way more crowded than I was a kid, and the experience is lessened. Point being, some of us desire a low people experience in our sport, and see limiting technology as a legitimate way of keeping the experience intact as possible. Taking a BWCA style trip with BWCA type equipment on Lake Mille Lacs is not the same as being in the BWCA. You have to have limits to get the BWCA experience. Opportunity for all, just have to do without a few things, like scopes on muzzleloaders. Many want all options, all the time, everywhere in the state, with the latest greatest technology. That creates a crowded experience in my opinion. And often pounds the snot out of the resource.

At this point, as a practical matter, I hope things stay unchanged (no scopes, no ban on inlines) and keep the season late so on the years that we get a real Minnesota winter, the draw of first ice and snowmobiling draw away those who see muzzleloading as a "backup" option, results in the woods being quieter, like they were many years ago. At least for a few days.

My gut feeling is that in my lifetime muzzleloading will continue to morph into an extension of the regular season with all it's harvest restrictions and hunter competition for prime spots. Hope I am wrong. However, with the DNR pooling the muzzleloader only guys (about 7,000) with the rest of the multi-season hunters in competing for doe permits, the DNR already is basically considering it an extension of the regular firearms season. They feel no obligation for the original intent of the season and those hunters who pushed for the original formation of a muzzleloading season. Money and numbers speak very loud these days.

lakevet

[Musky Buck]

I hear both sides and I don't know the answer, what I do know some is in some areas like mine, many successful rifle season people are still armed with a buck tag for the muzzy season. I hear the DNR when they say it's a way to extend the season for unsuccessful hunters, that isn't the case so much where I hunt, it's don't use your rifle tag or you'll be sol for the muzzy season so many guys or groups tag the deer with you don't muzzy hunt so come tag mine, etc. so like lakevet said the woods are still full of orange, I'm talking my area in particular that has the highest number of muzzy hunters in the state and highest muzzy kill in the state also, I know the % of deer taken by muzzy is low, but in my area it is the highest there is, so it has taken a toll on the deer some, some meaning those deer in my view should be left for the next fall as per acre we must have about the highest # of deer hunters per acre in the midwest, lets leave Wisc. out of that statement as apparently they have the ultimate in habitat or they couldn't support the herd sizes they can. I'm unclear exactly where I stand but the pressure in my area is extreme, not to mention how many bow hunters in our area connect and they're still holding a buck tag at rifle and muzzy season somehow and when you realize they aint party bowhunting how does that happen ? I wish some of these people would just start doing their hunts by the book.

[Bowfin]

[quote name='lakevet)

Bowfin' date='

2011 hunting regulations handbook p.78

"Rifle-Shotgun Boundary

In the shotgun zone (see map on the back of the large, deer zone

map, available separately), deer hunters may use only legal shotguns

loaded with single-slug shotgun shells, legal muzzleloading long guns,

or legal handguns."

So those with inlines can still use them, even scope them if they want, in shotgun zone.

There are basically two sides or approaches, in my opinion, to the muzzleloader season opinions.

1) Have a separate distinct season defined by the weapon (cap or flintlock, open sights) and a low hunter density hunt experience that is a step back to a different era and experience

2) Have a season that allows me to basically extend my regular firearms season experience in every way with a weapon of long range and reliability of the best possible technology.

As to traditions, especially family traditions, they are core to our hunting also. Glad you guys have the long tradition you have. Ours started in the 1880's in Minnesota on the same land we hunt today.

Again muzzleloaders ARE legal in shotgun zone. Your investment can still be used in regular season. Those that want scopes have a season where they can use them. It just is a little more of a crowded season .

lakevet [/quote']

Lakevet,

I'm not disputing the "legality" of using muzzy's in the shotgun zone just the point its not an option for me as I'm not willing to give up the tradition of rifle season and the sound of my '06 piercing the silence of a quiet northern Itasca County morning.

As for scopes, if they ever become legal, I'd use one but if not, so be it. I just hope the laws don't flip flop back and forth.

I've often thought a "primitive only" season the first 2 weeks of October would be nice. Restrict it to open sights, flintlocks, etc from the start. Make individuals have to choose either the early primitive muzzy season or the late muzzy season where in-lines are legal. Many in-liners would stick to the late season. This would get me thinking as an October season with a primitive smoke pole would be neat (It might cause me to take up primitive muzzy hunting and take turns between the muzzy seasons each year). I suppose it would upset some bow hunters and rifle hunters who don't want "their" woods disturbed but if you have gun/season restrictions, it may not get so popular.

Stick to allowing 1 buck tag per hunter per year no matter what and how many seasons they hunt and work with differing doe limits to control the herd. Need to stick to allowing party hunting as it's deep tradition. I know some are going wild with this but most are having to limit themselves if they abide by the law in that the party has to be afield at the same time. I've had to restrict myself in what I shoot many times to stay legal with the party hunting rules.

[Jameson]

...There are always a few wanting to change things for themselves. ..

..They feel no obligation for the original intent of the season and those hunters who pushed for the original formation of a muzzleloading season....

Agreed.

[harvey lee]

It all comes down to one idea.

The DNR decided to allow the inlines and now that a huge number of deer hunters have purchased one, this is NOT the time to say you cannot hunt the ML season unless you have only this kind.

It would be like saying for all the archers who now use compounds, go back to a recurve.

Total nonsense.

[lakevet]

It all comes down to one idea.

The DNR decided to allow the inlines and now that a huge number of deer hunters have purchased one, this is NOT the time to say you cannot hunt the ML season unless you have only this kind.

It would be like saying for all the archers who now use compounds, go back to a recurve.

Total nonsense.

Harvey,

Even the DNR has said that this happens yearly in response to the bills wanting scopes and happens year after year. Both bills get dropped and things stay unchanged....til next legislative session, or the scopes get passed. Just as those with in lines would be upset if they were banned, those who believe in preserving existing law that you can only use open sights get upset about scopes and the resulting increased effectiveness, which Lou C and the DNR says could result in INCREASED restrictions on what muzzleloaders can harvest, EVEN though they harvest the lowest number of deer of any season.

To quote myself:

"There are always a few wanting to change things for themselves. Some of those want to change the season to allow scopes. Bills to ban "modern" muzzleloaders having regularly appeared as a legislative tactic and counter to the persistent and repeated bills to scope muzzleloaders during muzzleloader season. So far, in past years it has resulted in a "I'll drop my bill if you drop yours" outcome. I venture that if the "I wanna scope" crowd stopped introducing bills then the "I want it super primitive" would also stop. However, each time that shooter buck walks out at 200 yards, the "gotta get a scope" guy gets frustrated and pushes for change. The fact that he already had the regular firearms season to use a long range scoped weapon and the buck survived doesn't mean squat. He wants "opportunity" like he sees year round on the hunting shows. He wants another 16 days with a 250 yard weapon to tag that animal that outwitted him during regular season. This is one time where SOME QDMA guys have trouble saying "let em go, let him grow"! They already successfully changed some of the long standing original regulations by being able to hunt that buck all seasons, thus dismantling the "choose either regular firearms or muzzleloader". This regulation was established and regarded as critical by the previous DNR managers to prevent muzzleloaders from over harvesting the herd, even in SW MN where Lou C says the herd is "vulnerable" to over harvest by muzzleloaders. No other regulation/lotteries/permits were needed. Simple, effective and functioned perfectly for YEARS. New generation of managers come in and it has been constant change and tinkering and overharvest in the SW , additional restrictions on what can be harvested, with talk of possibly more restrictions if scopes are allowed,etc."

Again the world is not simple, especially the world of law making and our law makers in St. Paul, and this bill is not a simple "I want to ban inlines" bill, but a counter to get the legalization of allowing scoping of muzzleloaders dropped.

So Harvey if you want to be sure this goes away, contact the your lawmakers and ask them to vote no on BOTH issues. Season stays unchanged. I personally like stability in the regulations if possible. Hopefully we can both agree on that.

lakevet

[Spike76]

I love deer hunting and anyway to extend the season I will do. I also think that a reddot or scope would help me be more accurate with my shooting. I don't shoot over 40 or 50 yards, but the end sight is hard for me to see in low light situations. I'm having a peep sight put on for next year, and hopefully that will help me. I'll be 66 next month and the bifocals make it hard sometimes. It sounds like every thing will stay the same with the regs, and that will be fine. Just remember that any changes to help the elderly, could be enjoyed by us all. I don't want to get a docter's exception, although it would help a lot of older hunters to use scopes.

[harvey lee]

Lakevst

I call or e-mail my state reps all the time.

I could care less about a scope for ML hunting. But, since they allowed inlines, I would like to keep using mine right along with all the others.

[cavalierowner]

... yards, but the end sight is hard for me to see in low light situations. I'm having a peep sight put on for next year, and hopefully that will help me. I'll be 66 next month and the bifocals make it hard sometimes. ...

I'm 63 and I had exactly that problem. I tried all kinds of things but ended up putting fiber optic sights with a lime green fiber in both front and rear sights. That made all the difference in the world. The only problem is that I have a traditional caplock and the fiber optics look ridiculous!! Imagine Davy Crockett with fiber optic sights on his rifle But sometimes you do what you have to do.

[lichen fox]

Update...there have been no further actions on this bill since it was introduced on Feb 29th...I also have not seen this wording in any of the current bills that are going forward...therefore, I would assume it is dead in the water!

[Bambito]

Good! I used to hunt the regular firearms season in SW MN back when I was in high school. I hunted with family members on family land. Until one year we took the 2nd weekend and no one could hunt Monday or Tuesday. So I decided to go out by myself on public land. Not such a good idea. I walked into a state wildlife area that was almost a complete section and had 3 different parking lots. To my knowledge no one else was in there. As i was walking through I met a guy on my way to where I wanted to sit for the evening. He asked my why I was in here if they were and I told him I didnt know they were in there and he told me to get out. I asked how many there were and he said 3. I told him no way they could cover all this and told him i was gonna go and sit down. Well luckily I knew who he was cause about 30 minutes later I hear a truck start up and about 5 minutes later they come down the road. As they drove past me (im sitting about 150 yards off the road in a bottom where they could see me and my blaze orange) I see the window of there truck roll down and a gun come out the window. They shot once and it was directly at me. As soon they took off I packed up and headed back to my truck. When I got home I threw my gun on the kitchen floor and my mom said I thought you were gonna go hunting. I told her what happened and she and I went to the Sheriffs department. I filled out a report and told them who the one guy was that i had encountered in the woods. From what I found out two sherrifs went to his house. All three guys were still there. They took all three of there guns, they took the truck and all three lost hunting privlages for 5 years. To me that wasn't enough, they should have been charged with attempted murder. Anyways from that day on I told myself I will no longer hunt during the regular shotgun season. So I got into muzzleloading, and I have done it now for the last 13 years. I have been pretty successful as well! I am not a trophy hunter by any means. Infact, This past year I got a real nice doe and am just as proud of that as any buck I have gotten. 3 years ago I met my now wife and for the past 3 seasons she has hunted with me. We hunt together on my uncles land in sw mn and although she has yet to get a deer she certainly loves being out in woods. We dont care if we get a deer we are just out to enjoy the outdoors and if we get one or even two then hey meat in the freezer for us! We always take a week of vacation and we definatly have a good time together and have pics and memories to share with our family and kids someday. We hardly ever see more then a couple other hunters and its very quite and peaceful where we hunt and thats the best part!

Whats a scope gonna do on a muzzleloader for ya? Instead of shooting a 100 yards you can now shoot 200 yards? If you cant get within 100 yards of a deer then why are you shooting anyways? Look at bow hunters. Flintlock or In-line.....is there really that big of a difference? You still only get one shot!

Instead of looking at making changes to the muzzleloading season why dont they look at making changes to the regular firearms season. Especailly in the south where you use a shotgun and have atleast 5 shells to fire. These parties of 15 guys that push and post land and all these deer run out in to the plowed feilds. That 4th and 5th slug is shot at a running deer that is now out there about 100 yards or more. Not only are you just "lobbing" them out there to shoot but your putting people on the roadways at risk of getting hit by what you call a "stray". Maybe slug hunters should only be allowed to hunt with one in the chamber and one in the magazine? Last year during the slug season I wouldnt even let my wife travel to her parents place cause Im afraid of what has already happenend in this state due to careless people. (I'm not trying to harp on regular firearm hunters because a lot of them are just there for "guys weekend" and to get out of the house and are responsible when it comes to safety)

However how many deaths or injuries have you heard of during the regular firearms season? muzzleloading season? My point exactly! Sometimes I wish I was born 50 years earlier. People back then werent so worried about dump that didnt matter like in-line or flintlock or to scope or not to scope? Pathetic.

[lichen fox]

"Whats a scope gonna do on a muzzleloader for ya?"

HogWild...I hate to burst part of your bubble, but the scopes on muzzleloaders is still alive in the scemes they're cooking up in the legislature...best thing to do if you are against it is to contact your representatives and urge them to vote no...

[Musky Buck]

My personal experience, 3 bucks taken by open sight muzzleloader. I'm pretty sure I'd have 2 more if scopes were allowed if I wouldn't have missed them, I had to let the 2 go as I couldn't in low light before dark no snow on the ground conditions tell if they were decent or not. I'd hate to shoot and pray, then walk up to a yearling so they walked off and I tried to put plan B into action and leave my stand for a close range downwind of their trail set up, but no luck. My binoculars weren't all that effective with gloves on trying to zoom in on a moving deer in and out of the willows, the best view I had of either was the first look I got and then it was tough from there, if I had a scope I could've whistled them to stop check the head and fire shortly after. When you've taken as many as I it's almost the hunts I don't get him on that are the best memories that keep me at it and hoping to cross paths with him the following year if he survives that long and is in the area. Scopes or not, whatever they decide is ok with me, I'll be open sights forever unless my vision goes on me.