Change???? maybe a little.

[FCspringer]

I've been scrounging the internet to see if I could find out where these incidents took place, and so far what I've found is 1 east of Hinckley, 1 in White Bear Township, 1 near Brainerd, and 1 near Lake City. Couldn't find any more information, but from what I've found, all reported incidents took place from Brainerd south.

So once again, it looks like we in the north get drug into the problems down south....

If someone has any better information, please feel free to correct me.

LOL, many would consider Brainerd and Hinkley north. I think the thought is that Grouse are a northern bird. And there for, consider the North Zone the Grouse range. Once you get north of Alex it basicly starts. Those areas you mentioned are popular areas for the metro folks to Grouse hunt. So that could explain some of the reason for any encounter. I did not see any of these encounters that were south of Brainerd..

[FCspringer]

And also with the couple nasty posts recently, perhaps it was pointless to think that like minds could come togeather and come up with some good thoughts. I guess we should just write this off and go fishing. LOL

[swamptiger]

Quote:

LOL, many would consider Brainerd and Hinkley north. I think the thought is that Grouse are a northern bird. And there for, consider the North Zone the Grouse range. Once you get north of Alex it basicly starts. Those areas you mentioned are popular areas for the metro folks to Grouse hunt. So that could explain some of the reason for any encounter. I did not see any of these encounters that were south of Brainerd..

The only encounter that was north of Brainerd was the one in Emily, unless the 6th one was in the north.

Quote:

Those areas you mentioned are popular areas for the metro folks to Grouse hunt. So that could explain some of the reason for any encounter.

Yes, that's basically what I'm getting at. The areas that are heavily hunted and trapped at the same time are naturally where the problems are going to be, and those areas are generally from Brainerd south.

Not making nasty comments in my mind - simply stating the facts. Those of us who live in the northern areas of the state are used to this sort of thing - it's nothing new to us. Other examples would be ATV access/trails and wetlands management - southern solutions to non-existent northern problems.

[swampman]

I guess you can look at it however you want from where I am sitting it was the one incident in the north where the guy went to the media and opened this whole wasp's nest. I can see why the trappers assoc decided early on to deal with this in the legal and legislative route,dealing with this in a public format is counterproductive I think the threads here the last month prove that. I know I am guilty as anybody, push comes to shove and most people look out for number one.

[9339za]

No matter what any of us think as long as dogs are being killed regardless of the circumstance trapping will be the center of public attention. I don't think that is good for trapping. I like to just do my thing and be left alone.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

No matter what any of us think as long as dogs are being killed regardless of the circumstance trapping will be the center of public attention. I don't think that is good for trapping. I like to just do my thing and be left alone.

I agree with that, and I also believe it will be the trappers who will need to compromise in the end. This is a simple mathematical reality. That doesn't necessarily make it right, however.

I referred to southern solutions to non-existent northern problems earlier, but in a broader context it amounts to urban solutions to non-existent rural problems. We are seeing this all over the country, so this just a continuation of an ongoing trend with the end goal of banning trapping as a sport altogether.

Bird dog hunters should keep in mind that they also are in a definate minority with the overall urban-based population, so beware of the trend. You could be next.

[Saw557]

Read in the Star this morning what the DNR proposal is it makes no mention of compromise by anyone other than trappers...imagine that and it goes on to quote Sen Chuck Wiger of Maplewood (a metro suburb) one of the authors of the original proposal as saying "its a start but I am not sure it adequately protects dogs" I think the DNR's proposal is reasonable although it doesnt help bobcat trappers.

DNR PROPOSAL

All 220's on public land elevated 4 feet except for vertical sets which would have the opening no more than 6" off the ground

Cubby opening limited to 50" sq. in

trigger of the trap recessed 7" from opening unless its a vertical set than its 4"

there is no mention of water sets being completely submerged

If this is not "adequate" enough to protect dogs what does Sen Wiger have in mind and what are his real intentions. Its funny how all this stuff originate from Metro area law makers that have more than likely never set a trap in their life.

[Tinkhamtown]

I hunt Dora Lake/ Squaw Lake area and went up December 2009 to hunt grouse. I know two trappers in the area one Bob Marketer 71 at the time and Arnie Carlson 74 at the time. After a couple of inches of fresh snow I started hunting grouse knowing how hard it was going to be to find the birds. First area down by the Bowstring River I run into Bob who warns me he has conibears in the area and if my springer gets into them they will get killed. Moved a mile and a half and was just going to start hunting a trail when Arnie drove up and warned me about large conibear set on left side of T a half mile down trial. Out of respect for older friendly trappers I packed up and went home to protecting my two dogs from fatal run in with conibears. I also do not hunt grouse during deer hunting season because I don’t want dogs or I accidently shot. Could we have grouse season end November 30 and trapping start December 1 with a special conibear season during the days of deer season? Cannot see punishing all good trappers because of six dead dogs just need to figure out how we can share the same resource- public land and make it safer for hunting dog. I am sure all trappers agree one dead dog is one too many. Let’s find a good answer! As Arnie said fur prices were down at the time but how could he quit doing something he loved at 74 how many years do I have left? I know as Bob told me several times he would trap for free he loves it so much. I am 66 and love to hunt grouse with springers but I don’t think a grouse is worth the chance of my dogs getting killed. WE HAVE A PROBLEM!

[Todd Caswell]

Here is the proposed bill

[Random guy]

I see some common sense about water sets, private land and 110/120 conibears finally came into play. Also the baited cubby with a 50 sq. inch opening is not bad. Very doable deal for the bucket setters. Simply cut a 7x7" opening in a bucket lid and two 7" slots to recess the trap. Place the trap in the bucket and install the lid over the trap. Easy peasy lemon squeezey.

I am sure some deabte will occur aas a seven inch hole and seven inches back will increase misses on racoons

I also notice it is a 100% give from the trappers and zero from dog owners. Where are the bills and proposals for keeping dogs under control? I think if the trappers have to give a little so should dog owners, solidify the safety of these dogs? Correct?

[SneakAttack]

I see some common sense about water sets, private land and 110/120 conibears finally came into play. Also the baited cubby with a 50 sq. inch opening is not bad. Very doable deal for the bucket setters. Simply cut a 7x7" opening in a bucket lid and two 7" slots to recess the trap. Place the trap in the bucket and install the lid over the trap. Easy peasy lemon squeezey.

I am sure some deabte will occur aas a seven inch hole and seven inches back will increase misses on racoons

I also notice it is a 100% give from the trappers and zero from dog owners. Where are the bills and proposals for keeping dogs under control? I think if the trappers have to give a little so should dog owners, solidify the safety of these dogs? Correct?

I have to use the 50sq. inch opening bucket set with a 160 in the permit area i trap coons, Have taken many big boars with this set by using bait that can be secured to the back to keep them working. Not the greatest set but it works and is the only way to trap coons in this area on a 3 day check

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Could we have grouse season end November 30 and trapping start December 1 with a special conibear season during the days of deer season?

This would have been a simple solution in the grouse zone, but as I said, the compromise will be on the trapping end, not on the other end.

All I can say is I'm sure glad I didn't order those new 220 Belisles I had on my wish list....

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

also notice it is a 100% give from the trappers and zero from dog owners. Where are the bills and proposals for keeping dogs under control? I think if the trappers have to give a little so should dog owners, solidify the safety of these dogs? Correct?

And how does a gundog owner kepp his dog under control while quartering looking for birds? Trust me mine are under control but there still "hunting" with there nose thats alot more sensitive than yours and mine. Flushers labs, goldens, and spanials typically hunt close, but what about the setter people, alot of times these dogs range quiet a bit more often times out of sight, with a beeper collar on, exspecialy if there is folage on the brush, I certainly wouldn't say because there out of sight there out of control, it's just the way they hunt..

[Saw557]

Hmm foliage on birch trees in December. I've said it many many times here I run two pointing dogs the possession limit is 10 grouse season opens mid September close grouse season Dec 15 you've had 90 days to harvest your 10 birds. How many people are really hunting grouse in Dec. not many so now you are in the minority just like trappers make a compromise like we have. Now give me some time to harvest my fisher and bobcat. Fair is fair as a dog hunter and a trapper I don't think this asking too much. Problem solved

[Random guy]

Quote:

I certainly wouldn't say because there out of sight there out of control, it's just the way they hunt..

Well a 220 is just the way I trap then, I can’t help it.

Let’s stop the talk and call it what it is, dog owners want a free pass to fully unrestricted rights to ALL lands, I am so tired of fricken dogs.

I don't think it’s very fair we as trappers have to give, give and give some more and dog owners have ZERO change or impact to their way of life. I have been bitten by three dogs (these incidents are actually documented unlike what is it now? Couple dozen mystery dogs the 220 got last year?)Maybe I'm scared for my safety, I do not want to have dogs by me when I am on public land, I could be bit again. I think I should push for mandatory leash laws in concern for public safety. Far more people are killed by dogs every year then traps kill dogs, "This is a problem!"

Bottom line I am saying is enough from the dog crowd; ya got what ya wanted so enough is enough. Or is there really more on the anti trapping agenda?

[Random guy]

Ya know the more I think about it I should push for leash laws. I bet if I round up everybody that has been bit, threatened or even think they might have been bit or threatened I would have a good case to put these uncontrolled killers on a leash. It only took a few dogs to get the 220 laws done I bet I could gather a couple dozen people with bite wounds to get behind the leash law. I even bet I could get some of them to cry on TV!

Quote:

Dog bites on the rise

by Lorna Benson, Minnesota Public Radio

July 19, 2007

Public health officials say the number of hospital-treated dog bites is growing. From 1998 to 2005, the rate of bites requiring an emergency room visit or hospitalization rose 40 percent in the state.

St. Paul, Minn. — The Minnesota Health Department is out with its first report on hospital-treated dog bites in the state. From 1998 to 2005, the rate of bites requiring an emergency room visit or hospitalization rose 40 percent.

The Health Department says the largest growth was in the number of dog bites treated in emergency departments, and children between the ages of 1 and 4 had the highest rate of dog bites requiring hospital treatment.

Minnesota Department of Health investigator Heather Day says officials aren't exactly sure why the rate has increased. But they have some theories.

"Part of it may be that there are more dogs, and therefore, more dog and human contact. Some of the increase could possibly be through more hospitals reporting this information to the hospital association. But it looks like the increase is certainly a real one," Day says.

Quote:

The dog bite epidemic: a primer

The number of dogs

There currently are 74.8 million dogs in the USA. (American Pet Products Manufacturers Association (APPMA) 2007-2008 National Pet Owners Survey.)

The number of victims

The most recent USA survey of dog bites, conducted by CDC researchers and based on data collected during 2001-2003, concluded that dogs bite 4.5 million Americans per year (1.5% of the entire population). Sacks JJ, Kresnow M. Dog bites: still a problem? Injury Prevention 2008 Oct;14(5):296-301.

Almost 800,000 bites per year -- one out of every 6 -- are serious enough to require medical attention. (Weiss HB, Friedman D, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments. JAMA 1998;279:51-53.)

Dog bites send nearly 368,000 victims to hospital emergency departments per year (1,008 per day). Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Nonfatal Dog Bite–Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments — United States, 2001, MMWR 2003;52:605-610. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report is published by the CDC.

The number of Americans who had to be hospitalized as a result of dog bites went up 86% in the past 16 years, from 5,100 hospitalizations in 1993, to 9,500 in 2008. The average cost of treatment was $18,200 per patient. The patients generally were kids under 5 years old and seniors over 65. (US Dept. of Health and Human Services.)

16,476 dog bites to persons aged 16 years or greater were work related in 2001. (Ibid., Nonfatal Dog Bite–Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments — United States, 2001, MMWR 2003;52:608.

Every year 2,851 letter carriers are bitten. (US Postal Service.)

Getting bitten by a dog is the fifth most frequent cause of visits to emergency rooms caused by activities common among children. (See Weiss HB, Friedman DI, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments, JAMA 1998;279:53; also see US Consumer Product Safety Commission, Injuries associated with selected sports and recreational equipment treated in hospital emergency departments, calendar year 1994. Consumer Product Safety Review, Summer 1996;1:5.) Note that this comparison is limited to activities that children more or less voluntarily engage in, such as playing sports, playing with animals, etc. Dog bite injuries are not specifically set forth in Federal Interagency Forum on Child and Family Statistics, Child Injury and Mortality, pp. 36, 37, 136 and 137, which states that the leading causes of emergency room visits overall are falls, being struck by or against an object, natural or environmental causes, poisening, being cut or pierced, and motor vehicle accident.

An American has a one in 50 chance of being bitten by a dog each year. (CDC.)

[Todd Caswell]

You know I read and reread both of you last 2 post, and I can't one intellgent, or realistic comment in either one of them. I asked you a simple question " How do you control a hunting dog? " So you want a leash law in the woods? I'm going to try and make this as ,simple as possible almost as if I was explaining it to a very young child. The reason for having a canine partner in the wood or marsh is to first scent, flush or point then retrieve downed game. Now how efficient is that dog going to be on a leash? I don't think I need to tell you this but maybe I do NOT VERY. It's kinda like me telling to you I'll let you put your traps out but you can't set them.

Iv'e backed you guys in almost every disscussion Iv'e had with other dog people, agreeing that there needs to a change of some sort but don't take the trap away. Fortunatly the vast majority of the trapping community that I have spoke with regarding this issue, is open to a change and understands the other side as well.

[Random guy]

So what you are saying is it is not ok to change YOUR way of life or restrict your dog to the point of inefficiency but it is ok to force the trapper into yet another change?

Hypocrisy hy•poc•ri• the false claim to or pretense of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings • It would be sheer hypocrisy for them to turn around and do what they criticize in others.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Now how efficient is that dog going to be on a leash?

About as effective as putting a conibear 4 feet off the ground, I'm thinking..

Same argument, different words..

[Todd Caswell]

You know I could be wrong but I can't seen to find anything that has to do with gun dogs in the woods, trappers being bit, other hunters being bit, if I missed it please feel free to point it out to me. You say youv'e been bit a couple times, Iv'e been around them all my life, trained, or helped train a bunch of them and not once have I been bit, see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

[Random guy]

Quote:

see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

Quote:

Getting bitten by a dog is the fifth most frequent cause of visits to emergency rooms caused by activities common among children. (See Weiss HB, Friedman DI, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments, JAMA 1998;279:53; also see US Consumer Product Safety Commission

Ya makes sense, most children are just jerks.

Really, oh and the second time I was bitten It was the neighbors dog charged me walking back from my deer stand on my property. Should have shot it instead I gave it the benefit of the doubt and figured it would recognize me as the guy that let him have full range of my yard.

I don't make that mistake anymore.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

You know I could be wrong but I can't seen to find anything that has to do with gun dogs in the woods, trappers being bit, other hunters being bit, if I missed it please feel free to point it out to me. You say youv'e been bit a couple times, Iv'e been around them all my life, trained, or helped train a bunch of them and not once have I been bit, see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

I think you're missing the point.

All it takes is for someone to go on a crusade like what just happened with the traps. All they have to do is get some graphic photos and take it to the media and tweet it over the internet, and you will find yourself in a defensive position. After all your dogs are used for hunting, so they must be killer dogs, right? And we let killer dogs run around loose on public land?

Just saying...

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

So what you are saying is it is not ok to change YOUR way of life or restrict your dog to the point of inefficiency but it is ok to force the trapper into yet another change?

The part that you fail to realise or admitt is that a guy and his dog walking down a trail isn't putting any one or thing in harms way, now you on the other hand, by lazily putting a baited 220 10 yards of that very same trail are, in fact putting dogs in harms way, and you can't say your not. I watched a guy this past fall setting fox/ coyote scent post sets along the paved Paul Bunyan hiking/bike trail, within eyesight of the parking area, you can't tell me that guy wasn't asking for trouble, those are the type of people that got you in this position...

[Random guy]

A while back a West Virginia news broadcast aired a segment about a dog caught in a BEAR TRAP! I seen the headline and though holy hell a bear trap!? A huge bear trap and a cute little dog! Ya it was a #2 coil set for something or West Virginia had really small bear.

Also the dog was a long ways from home when it got in the "bear trap".

All about the media and Todd it sure stinks to have to defend your way of life against ridiculous and irrational claims doesn’t it?

Now make your hunting dog hobby your living and see how it feels knowing some sob story on the news is about to take away your income.

[Random guy]

Todd I will agree that right away laws and ethics do need to be addressed. Nobody should be trapping by a paved trail and bird hunters should not have shot the front of my house either.