Which breeder?

[duckbuster]

I know the dollars involved to do a breeding. I paid $1,500 for the stud fee, I paid for an AI procedure, I left my dog with Dr. Rice for 5 days, I did 5 progestrone tests. To comment on the last thing you said there at the end, Really breeders do nothing to make the litter healthy. You do the hips, the elbows, the eyes, the EIC well before you decide it's time to do a breeeding. So before the breeding ever takes place hopefully you have done your due diligence. After that it is in Gods hands.

I say puppies today are over priced because of what I've seen over 30 years in and around the field trial game. 30 years ago we paid $300 for a FC/AFC to FC/AFC breeding. Today that would cost you 4-5 grand.

I will preface what I'm about to say next with this, I mean NO disrepsect to those owners who run the Hunt test arena. With that being said do you have an idea of how easy it is to put a JH or SH title on a dog? The MH title isn't that much tougher. A JH or Sh means your dog can go out and make a 100 yard retrieve. WOW!! The MH can do that and run a 100 yard blind. To those who run that arena god bless them. However that arena is not where I'm at. The dogs where I am are WAY over priced and unfortunately because of that it trickles down to everyone else.

That's why I believe that if you are looking for a gun dog look into litters for sale thru the paper and NOT a kennel where you will surely OVER PAY. Just one man's opinion is all but because I have been around long enough I have seen the evolution of things and where the prices have been and where they are now.

I agree. i'm just throwing out there what it takes to breed a dog. and what breeders have to do to produce healthy dogs.

[Bryce]

Some good points but probably wrong forum. I think most of the readers on this forum would be tickled pink to know their hound could consistently nail a 100 yard mark. Vast majority of them would have a real tough time getting a single leg on JH title. Yet the owners are rightfully happy as they have a perfectly good meat dog that smacks everything inside of 50 yards which is realistic to even stretching it in a real world hunting. They talk up the occassional long retrieve and talk off the more numerous unretrieved birds at that range as not realistic and fido tried real hard.

As far as hunt tests being easy. Have you been lately? I was surprised at the difficulty the couple chances I had to watch our young girl this year at an SH event. I'll give you the range factor but at what level of trials do they throw pinched marks or momma/poppa marks? Really two different types of dogs that only the very best can excel at both. Let's take that open dog that gets big excitement out of a 150 yard go bird and throw it in a MH event with a 40 yard flying eraser and see how things go.

That said, our little girl just got confirmation she is through the third series and runs tomorrow for a derby ribbon.

[duckbuster]

Is she in Louisiana with Tim down on the spillway @ the triple D/Q? I heard Tim was getting out of the HT side and was going to do yound dogs (D & Q) only. Is this true?

I'm not sure I did a real good job there of explaining the OP's question/concern. However, I was trying to point out how puppies today are over priced. Going thru a "kennel" I believe for a gun dog you will over pay.

Good Luck with the finish tomorrow!!

Some good points but probably wrong forum. I think most of the readers on this forum would be tickled pink to know their hound could consistently nail a 100 yard mark. Vast majority of them would have a real tough time getting a single leg on JH title. Yet the owners are rightfully happy as they have a perfectly good meat dog that smacks everything inside of 50 yards which is realistic to even stretching it in a real world hunting. They talk up the occassional long retrieve and talk off the more numerous unretrieved birds at that range as not realistic and fido tried real hard.

As far as hunt tests being easy. Have you been lately? I was surprised at the difficulty the couple chances I had to watch our young girl this year at an SH event. I'll give you the range factor but at what level of trials do they throw pinched marks or momma/poppa marks? Really two different types of dogs that only the very best can excel at both. Let's take that open dog that gets big excitement out of a 150 yard go bird and throw it in a MH event with a 40 yard flying eraser and see how things go.

That said, our little girl just got confirmation she is through the third series and runs tomorrow for a derby ribbon.

[Todd Caswell]

Some good points but probably wrong forum. I think most of the readers on this forum would be tickled pink to know their hound could consistently nail a 100 yard mark. Vast majority of them would have a real tough time getting a single leg on JH title. Yet the owners are rightfully happy as they have a perfectly good meat dog that smacks everything inside of 50 yards which is realistic to even stretching it in a real world hunting. They talk up the occassional long retrieve and talk off the more numerous unretrieved birds at that range as not realistic and fido tried real hard.

As far as hunt tests being easy. Have you been lately? I was surprised at the difficulty the couple chances I had to watch our young girl this year at an SH event. I'll give you the range factor but at what level of trials do they throw pinched marks or momma/poppa marks? Really two different types of dogs that only the very best can excel at both. Let's take that open dog that gets big excitement out of a 150 yard go bird and throw it in a MH event with a 40 yard flying eraser and see how things go.

That said, our little girl just got confirmation she is through the third series and runs tomorrow for a derby ribbon.

Your right, good points but wrong forumn perhaps, but I'll give my input as well, as long as it's free

HT were designed for dogs and handlers that could not or did not want to compete at the FT level period. Years ago the 80's most clubs had informals, then came along the HT, the feel good arena according to the old timmers. I run some HT but I personaly hate the pass/fail venue.

I love the competition and would much rather have my dog fail than pass and get a ribbon. Tim'S bread and butter is HT and I don't see him getting away from that, right now.... As long as he has the people and the dogs he will continue.....,...

[wormdunker]

I am a british lab owner. I have owned several labs in my life, previously all American. I have bred labs as well and had great success producing what the owners called quality dogs in all areas. That said, my experience with Royalty British Kennel was fantastic and actually worth every penny of the price I paid for the dog. Today my dog is 1.5 years old and has been the perfect companion and hunting dog.

It is easy to sit back and talk about Hype and so forth when you have never owned one. While I agree the price is steep, I was provided with piece of mind drink the decision process. John allows you the freedom to meet every dam and sire in his kennel. You get to see pups (of all ages) that came from the various litters he has produced.

When John shows you a dam/sire combination he can tell you all about the characteristics the pair will create. During the decision making process you never know if they are blowing smoke or if they truly know what they are talking about. Everything John told me about my pup came true.

LAst summer I was at a dog jumping competition put on by Cabelas. IF you have ever bee to one of these you know what kind of dogs are there, usually high energy and VERY vocal dogs. The kind of environment that would cause any dog to fall out of line. Well as we watched Auggie sat by me, watching the event, looking at all these dogs barking and going crazy. I did not think anything of it because he is always calm and obedient. Eventually another owner came to me to ask me about Auggie, he could not believe the dog was so calm. I told him all about the auggie and he eventually complimented me on the dog and walked away. Next another guy comes over with another black Lab. They both sat down, he looked over and said," I have to ask you, is that dog from Royalty British Kennels?" I was shocked, I told him it was and asked how he knew.....He said because it is obvious he is a special dog. I looked and his dog was laying next to him as if nothing was going on around. I then said I assume yours is from royalty as we'll? indeed.

I have had coutless (and I mean a lot) of people at summer kids sports activities comment on how well behaved the dog is. I test Auggie by walking in and around people (with and without their own dogs) without a leash on. We play catch, we kill time prior to games training in grass around the paling fields. Never does the dog ever leave me, never does he run off to see other dogs. People see the obedience and comment at how impressed they are. Some have even asked me to train their dogs for them believe it or not.

Training plays a part for sure but this has been the easiest dog to train I have ever had. I have not mentioned his performance in the field but he is as god if not better in the field. Impressive considering his laid back demeanor.

Piece of mind is why i will never buy a dog any place else. I have never felt for one second like I paid too much or regret the purchase for that matter. Hopefully you own a dog for 11-14 years. It is a huge decision. I decided to limit the risk by going with this breed of dog from this breeder. Never regret it and I will be back.

All i can say is go visit and see the dogs. Listen to what John has to say. Can you get a great $300 dog from a backyard breeder? YES. But in my opinion you do take a risk, especially in todays economy where people are trying to make a buck anyway possible.

[Bryce]

No idea what Tim has planned for the future. I do know they just got Lauren a trailer so they can do multiple events in a weekend and more efficiently train different levels of dogs. Don't question them much when we get results like this.

Second place derby dog Madison - Anderson,TX.

[duckbuster]

CONGRATS on the 2nd!!!

What I had heard was that he was going to do the young dogs as a feeder to the rorem truck. It would be a very good move if this is true.

[Todd Caswell]

I am a british lab owner. I have owned several labs in my life, previously all American. I have bred labs as well and had great success producing what the owners called quality dogs in all areas. That said, my experience with Royalty British Kennel was fantastic and actually worth every penny of the price I paid for the dog. Today my dog is 1.5 years old and has been the perfect companion and hunting dog.

It is easy to sit back and talk about Hype and so forth when you have never owned one. While I agree the price is steep, I was provided with piece of mind drink the decision process. John allows you the freedom to meet every dam and sire in his kennel. You get to see pups (of all ages) that came from the various litters he has produced.

When John shows you a dam/sire combination he can tell you all about the characteristics the pair will create. During the decision making process you never know if they are blowing smoke or if they truly know what they are talking about. Everything John told me about my pup came true.

LAst summer I was at a dog jumping competition put on by Cabelas. IF you have ever bee to one of these you know what kind of dogs are there, usually high energy and VERY vocal dogs. The kind of environment that would cause any dog to fall out of line. Well as we watched Auggie sat by me, watching the event, looking at all these dogs barking and going crazy. I did not think anything of it because he is always calm and obedient. Eventually another owner came to me to ask me about Auggie, he could not believe the dog was so calm. I told him all about the auggie and he eventually complimented me on the dog and walked away. Next another guy comes over with another black Lab. They both sat down, he looked over and said," I have to ask you, is that dog from Royalty British Kennels?" I was shocked, I told him it was and asked how he knew.....He said because it is obvious he is a special dog. I looked and his dog was laying next to him as if nothing was going on around. I then said I assume yours is from royalty as we'll? indeed.

I have had coutless (and I mean a lot) of people at summer kids sports activities comment on how well behaved the dog is. I test Auggie by walking in and around people (with and without their own dogs) without a leash on. We play catch, we kill time prior to games training in grass around the paling fields. Never does the dog ever leave me, never does he run off to see other dogs. People see the obedience and comment at how impressed they are. Some have even asked me to train their dogs for them believe it or not.

Training plays a part for sure but this has been the easiest dog to train I have ever had. I have not mentioned his performance in the field but he is as god if not better in the field. Impressive considering his laid back demeanor.

Piece of mind is why i will never buy a dog any place else. I have never felt for one second like I paid too much or regret the purchase for that matter. Hopefully you own a dog for 11-14 years. It is a huge decision. I decided to limit the risk by going with this breed of dog from this breeder. Never regret it and I will be back.

All i can say is go visit and see the dogs. Listen to what John has to say. Can you get a great $300 dog from a backyard breeder? YES. But in my opinion you do take a risk, especially in todays economy where people are trying to make a buck anyway possible.

This is a never ending battle with me, untill one of these so called gentlemans gun dogs that are laid back in the house, in the field, and at the fair, ect. can compete at the same level as our dogs in our HT and more importantly FT games I will have my reservations. A few of them have achived HRCH and MH titles but I don't know of any that can compete in our FT game.. I really wish they could, but when you put that laid back image with what we demand of our dogs the numbers just don't add up and may never add up. For the average hunter that wants a dog that will pick up 25 birds a year and sit on the couch the other 355 days a year it works but to train and perform the rest of the year they have to have a HUGE desire to get it done every day.... And these G gundogs just don't have it..

[DaSwede]

This is a never ending battle with me, untill one of these so called gentlemans gun dogs that are laid back in the house, in the field, and at the fair, ect. can compete at the same level as our dogs in our HT and more importantly FT games I will have my reservations. A few of them have achived HRCH and MH titles but I don't know of any that can compete in our FT game.. I really wish they could, but when you put that laid back image with what we demand of our dogs the numbers just don't add up and may never add up. For the average hunter that wants a dog that will pick up 25 birds a year and sit on the couch the other 355 days a year it works but to train and perform the rest of the year they have to have a HUGE desire to get it done every day.... And these G gundogs just don't have it..

I'm not concerned with titles. I want what wormdunker has. I also know that John's girls all average 8,000 birds a year.

[Bryce]

That's 22 birds per day. Each and every day of the year. You confident with that number?

[wormdunker]

Not looking to get into a [PoorWordUsage] match, ribbons for you seem to be important. Me? I shoot a good bit more than 25 birds per year. I have guided in the field and on water. When the day is over my dog gets the compliments.

Oh and I am NOT a gentleman hunter, no offense to the over under toting, filson/orvis crowd. If your statement about "gentleman hunter" is referring to another breeder in town that blames the demise of the american lab on women? I get your angst and will agree with.

I like obedient dogs, intelligent, calm dogs. There are American labs that match that description. I have had them. I am simply saying that John Pesak is a passionate caring breeder that does a very ce job.

[Todd Caswell]

No chit nice call.. Not sure even a British lab with supurb qualities and line manners could hold it together with those numbers.....

22 flyers a day is very expensive and very troublmentale ( if thats a word) for the dog.

[CigarGuy]

I hunted behind John's dog's a few times and got to know him a bit. His dog's are truly special and like I said earlier, he's as passionate about his dog's and the breed as can be. With that being said, I got my girl from labs4me and couldn't be happier. I couldn't ask for anything more in a hunting dog and family companion. I'm your average Joe hunter, if I get out 25 to 30 times per year, I'm happy(lucky). When John had the game farm, he did shoot a fair amount of birds. Here's a photo of a good day we had. Before you give me heck for being a game hog, we had others with us during this hunt.

[hamie]

So breeders don't make the breed healther.HMMM I would guess by doing all the test eic,pra,cnm , hips eyes elbows. Would make the breed better. Thanks to all the great new test out there this is helping us make the breed healther also.There will never be a perfect dog but we are trying. I do agree dogs are more expensive then they have been in the past but what isn't. (besides houses).There are some great dogs that are sold out side of kennels I agree with that. And there are kennels that sell dogs for reasonable prices. I do respect your Opinion.

[DaSwede]

Ok, thanks guys. I think I have all the input I need on breeders. This topic is going in circles now. If you want to continue the merry-go-round, by all means start a new thread on whatever it is that you want to talk/argue about.

I appreciate all opinions, but think I have my mind set on what I want and what will fit my and my family's needs.

[duckbuster]

Swede, glad to hear you are set to go. GOOD LUCK with your new friend!!

[duckbuster]

People talked about how expensive it is to do a breeding and they included the expense of the tests. My point was that the test are done well in advance of doing a breeding so one should not factor those test into the expense of having a litter of puppies. If you are going to include those expenses into the cost of your litter then be sure to add your vet bills for the time you have owned the dog plus food and any other expenses that were incurred before the litter, ie training. Expenses that go hand and hand with producing a litter of pups are the stud fee and the vet bill.

I was told that an excellent starting point to price your puppies is what you paid for the stud fee. $500 stud fee, $500 puppy price. Unfortunately, that is not how it works. People pay $1000 for the stud and ask 2,000-2,5000 for their puppies. How often do you hear someone say, "I'm not looking to make any money on the litter I just want a puppy out of XYZ dog". Really? Then why are you asking so much then.

Your opinion is respected as well. I hope I might have cleared up my thoughts.

So breeders don't make the breed healther.HMMM I would guess by doing all the test eic,pra,cnm , hips eyes elbows. Would make the breed better. Thanks to all the great new test out there this is helping us make the breed healther also.There will never be a perfect dog but we are trying. I do agree dogs are more expensive then they have been in the past but what isn't. (besides houses).There are some great dogs that are sold out side of kennels I agree with that. And there are kennels that sell dogs for reasonable prices. I do respect your Opinion.

[DaSwede]

Swede, glad to hear you are set to go. GOOD LUCK with your new friend!!

Unfortunately, I might be living with the dog in the crate if I don't get the boss's (wife's) approval first! Lord help me...lol!!!

[Todd Caswell]

Unfortunately, I might be living with the dog in the crate if I don't get the boss's (wife's) approval first! Lord help me...lol!!!

[Todd Caswell]

No idea what Tim has planned for the future. I do know they just got Lauren a trailer so they can do multiple events in a weekend and more efficiently train different levels of dogs. Don't question them much when we get results like this.

Second place derby dog Madison - Anderson,TX.

Bryce,

Cograts on Madison and her Derby carreer, she looked good last fall and apparently better now, but who is the ugly mutt next to her with the visor?? Maybe when he gets back up here next spring he'll realise there on there way out. Looking forward to seeing Tim with a Ball Cap on his head..........

[DaSwede]

Thats too bad, the best advise I ever got when I first got into dogs was, get your wife involved, in the dogs training and you will never have a issue when it's time for a new pup either as a new member of the family or just a pup to start and sell. It has worked for me so far, My wife helps throw birds, does her daily OB with the puppy's so they also listen to her, also works with them during collar conditioning. ect. I'm pretty sure she'll never handle a dog at a trial but she does enjoy training them trully enjoys every puppy we start, because she's been part of the entire process from the begining.

Get your wife involved in training your older dog thats sitting in the crate, and then you'll be set, for a new puppy.....

She loves dogs and training. The only thing is convincing her of the price that I want to pay. I was just saying it tongue in cheek!

[walleye34]

I have a dog from John at Royalty. I am a very satified customer. He was great to deal with and he loves his dogs. I am not going to say anything about my dog because if a guy says anything positive somebody always has to chime in, and they already have about until you dog is a FTC or FT or whatever your dog is nothing...well congrats to you that you can train your dog to run in straight lines and retrieve plastic bumpers!!! I was more than impressed with her first year of bird hunting this year and I am very happy...thats all I will say! Good luck on your decision.

[Bryce]

Another JAM for Maddie my little straight line running wonder They use live birds in field trials by the way but sure you knew that from all your knowledge of the event.

[DaSwede]

Just thought I'd update those of you that recommended lab breeders for me. We ended up going with Old Oak Retrievers out of Blooming Prairie. We visited Royal British Kennels in Milaca, and John is a great guy with beautiful dogs. If we lived a little closer, we would have gone with him. We visited Whispering Pines Labs, and the owners were super nice, but the dogs just weren't quite what we were looking for. Don't get me wrong, they were quality dogs, but I had a specific look in mind, and it wasn't what we wanted.

The last kennel we visited was Old Oak. Rick has a FANTASTIC set-up out there. His dogs were exactly what I was looking for, and the kennel is practically right out my back door. My family is very excited to be getting a dog again. We can't replace our Kody, but we are excited to start a new relationship with our British Lab!

Thanks for all that helped!

[WildFan10]

I have one of Rick's dogs. She turned 4 yesterday and was my first hunting dog. I could not be happier with her. Unbelievable desire to hunt in the field and nice and calm at home. British labs are the way to go. Rick was VERY helpful in selecting a pup and just talking to my wife and I about the breeding and British dogs in general. I would give Rick a call if you haven't already!