Deep trolling raps

[Wadinator]

I've read a little bit here and there, but haven't been able to get the jist of this type of fishing yet. Can someone explain to me how you troll a rap in 20-25' of water?

Specifically, can you run a shallow running (or floating or husky jerk or whatever) rap behind some sort of bottom bouncer? If so, how long of snell? How big of a bouncer? How far behind the boat? etc...

Thanks in advance!

[Dave B]

Yes you can. There are many factors that go into what you need to do to get down, but a general standard is 1 ounce for every 10 feet of depth. 6-10' of the leader is good. You can run any crank-divers are good because you can feel them tick bottom. There are also cranks that can run down to 20+' without any weights. Stick to thinner superlines for more depth. Leadcore is another option.

[walleyeking#8]

I found two ways that work well to get even the smallest raps down to them eyes. First way is using a bottombouncer 2-3 ounce with a 8' snell tied directly to the rap. The only problem is the time it takes to retie a new rap on. By adding a snap swivel to the end of your leader you can make changing the raps a little faster, but your presentation isn't quite as good. The other way is by using snap weights. They make these from 1/2 ounce up to I think 5 or 6 ounce. These work really well for fishing with raps. I hope this helps a little.

[Wadinator]

6-10' of snell!?!? WOW. And a 2oz bouncer for 20' of water. That's a bigger bouncer than I'm used to using for pulling spinners.

But as far as what type of rap works best, I should just try and figure that out depending on the situation, eh?

Thanks guys!

wade

[can it be luck?]

When trolling or harness fishing, spinning rods dont even ride in the boat with me. 7 1/2-9' rods and level wind reels will handle the extra weight.

[walleyeking#8]

Wadinator, I'm not sure what your using for bottom bouncers, but in my arsenal I have nothing smaller than 1 ounce. I usually use a 1 1/2 ounce when fishing 15' or less depending if I'm fishing current or depending how fast I'm trolling. In deeper water (15' to 35'), a 2 ounce or bigger. As far as raps to use, thats a tough choice being there are so many. I have trolled original floating raps on bottom bouncers all different colors, have also run #5 shad raps jointed with a 1 ounce snap weight. There are many different options and all work in different conditions and different circumstances. Like Dave B said they make raps that will run down 20+ ft. I hope this helps a little.

[Tour. Pro 175]

By using 10/4 fire line and long line trolling I can get a #5-#7 shad rap real close to that 20' depth the key is a lot of line, I don't know what type of structure your fishing and if it will allow this technique. If your fishing tight structure it will not. If thats the case I like to use a three way system, it consist of a three way swivel I use a 3oz weight with 16" of line tied to one of the rings on the three way swivel, attach 7' of line to one of the other rings, your floating crankbait gets attached to that. Your main line gets attached to the final ring. I like to spool fire line on my reel when doing this type of fishing, I like the strength and sensitivity. Let out enough line at trolling speed so that when you drop your rod back you make bottom contact with your weight, I dont like to drag the weight on the bottom. Good luck!

Good Fishing!

[This message has been edited by Tour. Pro 175 (edited 08-07-2003).]

[Wadinator]

quote:

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If your fishing tight structure it will not. If thats the case I like to use a three way system 3oz on the dropper 7' of line to my floating crankbait. Good luck!

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Could a guy get away with using a 3oz bottom bouncer with a 7' snell running to a #7 floating Rap, or is the 3-way swivel a must? How far behind the boat are you trolling when you do this?

I can't imagine I have enuf line in my spool to get a #7 deep runner downs near 20' using my 6/30 spider wire trolling rod.

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Wade

[Tour. Pro 175]

I must have been editing as you were reading I hope it clarified things a little. It's not that a bottom bouncer won't work, this is just what I use and it's worked well for me.

As far as long line tolling, there is a 125 yds. of fire line on a spool. With a mono backer I can easily put all of that on the curado reels I use. When I'm trolling I've got about 200' of line out. 10/4 fire line really cuts the water. I've run 14/6 fire line and I've noticed a difference in that I needed to increace the amount of line to achive those depths. Give the 10/4 a try.

Good Fishing!

[Wadinator]

But with a 3oz weight/7' snell setup, is a floating rap the way to go or can you use other kinds like shallow runners, deep runners, shad raps, husky jerk, etc...

[92python]

Try looking for a book called "Precision Trolling" or somthing like that. It sells at Gander and Galyans. It gives you the dive charts relating to how much line you need out with various cranks to achieve different depths. It gets into lead core and Snap weights as well.

Also, there is no way you can get a #5 or #7 BALSA Shad Rap down to 20' with no added weight using 4/10 Fireline only. The bigger BALSA shads will get there. The Plastic Rattling ones run deeper.

[Tour. Pro 175]

Any floating style crankbait works well with three ways. Deep diving crankbaits do not work with with three ways as earlier described.

Good Fishing!

[Tour. Pro 175]

92python,

I didn't say I could hit 20', I said close I was on the water Wendsday pulling shad raps at 2 mph I would tick bottom every once in a while at the 17' mark I had alot of line out.
If I'm fishing walleyes in 20' of water and my lures running at 17' I guess I'm close.

Good Fishing!

[can it be luck?]

Most active fish will be off the bottom. Walleye on the feed have no problem comeing up for a bait. If in 20' of water 10-15' down maybe all you need to catch the aggressive ones.

[Wadinator]

quote:

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If in 20' of water 10-15' down maybe all you need to catch the aggressive ones

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You may be right, but in my neck of the woods the walleyes haven't been agressive since the beginning of May. So I think I could could get more fish in the boat if I could get that rap within 6" - 1' of the bottom, running it right past their noses.

wade

[can it be luck?]

One way is to find a different lake. Good luck in your efforts to keep your bait in a 6" window without hitting bottom. When you get the answer please let me know, I would love to hear how you achieved this remarkable feat! If you need to put the bait in "front of thier noses", you shouldn't be fishing cranks. Inactive lethargic fish will only hit a fast moving crank on an instinct strike or you getting lucky enough to foul hook one in the face. Change your tactics and fish a live bait rig . You can then put your bait in "front of thier noses" 6"-1' off the bottom.

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 08-09-2003).]

[Wadinator]

Point well taken, but I don't think bobber fishing with live bait is the right thing to do either, unless you know they're there and they're finiky (not really aggressive).

Ah, I'm not sure what would be the best thing to try, I guess. Trolling raps in the 20' flats was the next thing I was gonna do, but maybe that won't change the results either. All you can do is try one thing after another until you figure something out, right?

[Dano2]

knowing Can it be Luck, he was probably talking about lindy rigs and not bobber fishing.
Weather he is or isn't, it doesn't matter, but makes great sense.
If your like I was, all you do is pull crank baits and if you cant catch em on those, you keep pulling them anyway.
This year I have finally learned to not be lazy and start doing what the others are doing to put fish in the boat, and that ofcourse is live bait rigging.
I have ALOT to learn yet, but in the last 3 weeks or so, I have caught some decent fish, so the homework and practice is starting to pay off, and thats a pretty good feeling considering the time of year it is.
Pulling cranks in the shallows at night has alsways been pretty good for me though.
thanks

[This message has been edited by Dano2 (edited 08-10-2003).]

[can it be luck?]

Wadinater, Dano was right in the referance to Lindy/bait rigs. Bobbers are GREAT when the fish are on a fast, and even slow bite. Leaving the bait hang in front of them is the only way to get them at times. The key to this is knowing or having confidence in the area your fishing. Somedays the fish dont seem to bite regardless what you throw at them. A Lindy rig can be fished slow for inactive fish while at the same time covering water in a slowed down search mode. You mentioned 20' flats. Have you ever trolled bottom bouncers and crawler harnesses? This is ideal structure to try this. A trolled crawler at .8-1.5 mph will cover ground, and also trigger even the inactive fish to bite. Along comes a bottom bouncer to get thier attention, followed by a spinner/crawler. You will be able to control your depth this way enabling you to key in on small windows at percise depths. Cranks trolled in shallow water at night as Dano said can be effective. Why?.... The fish are there to feed. A lot of crank bites come from lakes which have a good food fish forage base. Smelt,shiners,minnows,alewive,cisco, and even YOY gamefish such as perch. Fish will follow the food or find it when the dinner bell rings. Forage fish will suspend off bottom, and draw up even the bottom loving walleye to chase them. I've caught walleye 5-10' down over 30-40' of water. This however is somewhat of an unusual bite, but fish can do funny things at times. The real key to fishing IMO is experience, and REMEMBERING those experiences. Certain conditions,times,lakes,hatches,cover,etc., can all be referanced from the knowledge you've acquired and tested on other bodys of water. Soon you will have TOO MUCH information, but even so, never enough! Good luck to all. can it be luck?

[Wadinator]

quote:

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I've caught walleye 5-10' down over 30-40' of water.

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That reminds me...a couple years ago when we were in Canada, a buddy and I were trolling big raps (like 12" long!) for muskies. We happened to troll over a large rocky drop-off and ended up in about 47' of water. In that area we cought a 4lb walleye on that huge rap! I think that fish was about 20' down in about 50' of water! You're right...sometimes fish do uncharacteristic things!

I am very familiar with pulling crawler and leech harnesses. That's the first way I learned how to fish walleyes. We'd pull those harnesses while drifting most all the time, cept when the wind was too weak to sufficiently move the boat then we'd troll. I've also cought walleyes trolling spinners (harnesses), and raps, and also on minnows and leaches under a bobber, jigging leaches and minnows, and casting twisters (tipped or not tipped with leaches and minnows). But I have never trolled raps behind a bouncer on a 7' snell in 20' of water, and I'm just trying to learn how to do this to add to my arsenal of walleye-catching techniques...so I can try this the next time I'm out getting skunked!

Like with every technique, you have to get out there and catch some fish so you become confident in it.

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Wade

[can it be luck?]

YEP, You said it!!!

[walleyewacker]

All you need is a precision trolling book.

[bigeyes]

BTW- no chance a #5 shad rap will even get close to 17 feet without weight.

[walleyeking#8]

Last friday night I was trolling a #5 deepdiving perch colored jointed shad rap in 15' of water along the weedline and it was quite often that I had to clean off weeds so 17' isn't way out of line. . This applies to Wadinator, if your interested in trolling bottom bouncers and raps heres what I do. Connect a 2oz. bottom bouncer to your swivel or directly to your line, I use 10lb. berkley XT to make my snell, which is about 6ft. Make a loop on one end just like a snell and tie a #5 or #7 original floating rap on the other end, hook it to your bottom bouncer and walla your ready to fish. I have used this method in 8'to 30' of water. I'd troll about the speed I troll spinners. Like tourpro175 mentioned anything that doesnt dive will work. Hopefully this helps, give it a try. GOODLUCK!!!!!!

[bigeyes]

Sorry walleyeking I thought we were talking about shad raps. I do not use the jointed raps, so I can't say what there depth curve is.