Frustration!

[fishinchicks]

I don't have time to wade through all of the posts to find my answer, so if this has been talked about before, feel free to let me know where to find it.

I have a Canon Rebel XT, and a Tamron 17-50 2.8 lens. When I am attempting to shoot danceline photos, I get a lot of soft images, even though I have the focus supposedly locked on the person I am trying to take photos of. I typically have the ISO set at 1600 (the highest for this camera), and the lens set at 2.8.

I know it is 99.9% operator error here, but what can I do to get the images a little sharper? I will say, I don't think I have the best copy of this particular lens. No matter the setting, I tend to get softer images with this one than what I would like.

Thanks!

[MN Shutterbug]

Flash? What shutter speed? Maybe that lens is real soft wide open. Sometimes, if the light is less than desirable, the lens is incapable of acquiring a sharp photo. Low light equals low contrast which equals soft images.

[Steve Foss]

Any time you are shooting indoor action with ambient light, you need to pay close attention to your shutter speed. If there's not enough light for fairly fast shutter speeds, even at iso1600 and f2.8, you won't get sharp photos from any lens or camera. I've photographed sports in plenty of high school gyms that were too dark to get adequately sharp images at iso1600 and f2.8.

If the shutter speed is too slow, not only does the subject movement contribute to blur, but your own hand shake adds to the problem. How slow is too slow? Depends on your technique and how fast the action is, and whether you can keep a very solid steadying technique and time the shutter for when the subject is frozen, like at the apex of a danceline kick when the leg/foot is frozen for an instant.

So if you feel willing, post a photo you are dissatisfied with, but don't use the "save for web" option if you normally do. Just resize to 800 pixels across and save as a jpeg. That way we can see all the exif data and can help you pinpoint the problem. As it stands right now, we really don't have enough information to narrow things down, and are just making suggestions "in the dark," so to speak.

My experiences with the lens you mentioned were very good ones. Mine was nice and sharp wide open. It's possible you have a "soft" copy, but much more likely it's a shutter speed issue.

[finnbay]

I'm assuming you have focus set on AI servo. A couple of things. At f2.8 and it's very narrow DOF, even the slightest movement from when you press the shutter to when it actually exposes means a little bit of movement that might take is slightly out of focus. Also, most lenses are not at their sharpest when pushed to their f-stop limits. Usually the sharpest photos will be had at a stop or two over the minimum. Each individual lens also varies, so practice is needed to find your lens' "sweet spot". My 100-400 f/4-5.6 is sharpest at f/7.1.

[finnbay]

Agree with Steve and Mike on shutter speed. If I can't get at least 1/320th of a second, I lose a lot of shots to softness.

[finnbay]

Also, I've shot danceline indoors a lot, and lose a lot of photos when they wear dark costumes. As mentioned, focus is made by contrast, and when they wear dark or black, it may tell me I'm focused, but the images don't always come out that way.

[fishinchicks]

Thanks for the replies so far. I should have posted a couple of examples right away. Sorry about that.

Here are two examples. The first one is when the girls are relatively still. The second one is when they are spinning. (German exchange daughter is in the first one, my daughter is looking at the camera in the second one)

What settings should I be using to make these better?

[MN Shutterbug]

Carolyn, either you saved for web or edited and saved too many times because there is no exif data on these. However, at this size, they look pretty good to me.

[Dbl]

Carolyn, could you e-mail me the original shots that you posted. I would like to look at the Exif and examine the photos at full resolution. I think I can help you with the problems you are experiencing.

dbleitch at aol dot com

[Steve Foss]

If we could get that original posted here, Dan and Carolyn, with the exif data available, then all who view this thread will be able to see how things unfold.

[MN Shutterbug]

Wouldn't the original be too large of a file to post here? Wouldn't the forum resize the photo, which would defeat the purpose of the original?

[Steve Foss]

If it resizes the photo but preserves the exif, that would serve just fine.

It was posted on the forum as a question that many can learn from, so it's natural to want it to stay on the forum. But that's a small matter. Most important is getting Carolyn's question answered, not that it's answered publicly.

[CFRay]

I have that same lens and also have been disappointed in its results indoors. I am hoping that Carolyn's question is discussed here on the forum. The lens has many glowing reviews and I'm hopeful I can learn how to obtain those good results.

[fishinchicks]

Shoot. The only thing I did with these was upload to flickr and choose the medium size. They have not been edited in any way. I was able to look at the data in flickr, so I thought I would be okay.

I'll send them to Dbl

[fishinchicks]

I uploaded these through photobucket - again not touched in any way as far as editing.

[MN Shutterbug]

Shutter speed should be fast enough on these 2 pics. I don't detect a lot of subject movement. Dan should be able to enlarge the originals and better see if it's a focus problem or just the narrow dof.

[Steve Foss]

Here's the exif data

Quote:

Image Orientation: Top, Left-Hand

Horizontal Resolution: 72 dpi

Vertical Resolution: 72 dpi

Image Created: 2011:01:08 16:35:51

Exposure Time: 1/250 sec

F-Number: f/2.8

Exposure Program: Aperture Priority

ISO Speed Rating: 1600

Lens Aperture: f/2.8

Exposure Bias: 0 EV

Metering Mode: Partial

Flash: No Flash, Compulsory

Focal Length: 85.00 mm

Color Space Information: sRGB

Image Width: 3456

Image Height: 2304

Rendering: Normal

Exposure Mode: Auto

White Balance: Auto

Scene Capture Type: Standard

Other Properties:

Resolution Unit: i

Chrominance Comp Positioning: Centered

Exif IFD Pointer: 2264

Compression Scheme: JPEG Compression (Thumbnail)

Horizontal Resolution: 72 dpi

Vertical Resolution: 72 dpi

Resolution Unit: i

Offset to JPEG SOI: 4872

Bytes of JPEG Data: 6012

Exif Version: 2.21

Image Generated: 2011:01:08 16:35:51

Image Digitized: 2011:01:08 16:35:51

Meaning of Each Comp: Unknown

Shutter Speed: 1/250 sec

Comment:

Focal Plane Horiz Resolution: 3954 dpi

Focal Plane Vert Resolution: 3958 dpi

Focal Plane Res Unit: i

Carolyn, I don't have a lot of time just now to comment, but on the face of things 1/250 in that situation should be plenty of shutter speed to get good sharpness, if you are holding your camera as steady as possible and not punching the shutter button. However, it looks to me like focus is the issue, since the signs and front edge of the stage, behind the subjects, are noticeably sharper than the subject.

So are you focusing manually on the static danceline and taking your photos, or are you using Ai servo or one shot mode?

And what lens did you use for these last two? Your OP mentioned the 17-50, but these were shot at 85mm. BTW, I think the two images you posted first on this thread have adequate sharpness for the iso and circumstances. Not so much these last two.

[fishinchicks]

I sent Dan the first two photos, so we'll see what he has to say.

I must have used my Canon 85mm 1.8 at this competition. Most competitions I used my Tamron 17-50 - that is what was used on the first photos I posted.

I used AI Servo, which is one setting I rarely change. Since the girls are moving all over the floor, I use auto focus. I'm not quick enough to adjust focus while keeping up with the movement. It is all hand held.

Thanks for taking a look at things and helping me out! I have one more year of dance line to shoot, but the info will help me in all areas.

[Dbl]

Carolyn,

First thanks for sending the full resolution photos, it makes a huge difference to be able to see a full resolution photo when you are looking for any issues related to technique or equipment. The EXIF in the first photo posted is;

ISO 1600

f2.8

1/60s

50mm

in the second shot;

ISO 1600

f2.8

1/125s

50mm

I blew each shot up to 100% to 200% and both look as sharp as can be expected. There are a number of issues at play and everyone has pretty much touched on them. Shutter speed, low light, high ISO, focal length, lens sharpness, aperture settings, and camera capabilities. If I might discuss each briefly.

Shutter speed – As mentioned 1/60s and 1/125s are at the very bottom of acceptable shutter speeds when trying to stop action. In fact as Ken mentioned like him I find 1/320s at the bottom end of my acceptable shutter speed. That can change based on the camera used. I find my 7D with its high pixel count that I need closer to 1/500s to get sharp results. So frankly your keeper rate should not be expected to be much better than say 50%, in fact you would be doing very well if you had that keeper rate.

There is not much that can be done to get a higher shutter speed given your equipment. You have shot the 85/1.8 so that is doing the best you can do at this point.

Low Light – Low light places a lot of demands on your equipment, even the best equipment! Focus speed, focus accuracy, and the ability to track a moving subject are all pushed to the limit in low light. If you take a sport and shoot it indoors and then move it outdoors your outdoor shots will have a considerably higher keeper rate using the same camera settings! Cameras operate much better in better light! No surprise there but many people underestimate the effect poor indoor lighting has on equipment.

High ISO – High ISO is a detail killer! Our cameras are getting better and better shooting at high ISO's but again don't underestimate the effect the loss of detail at high ISO. Your camera does OK but you are limited to 1600. Any camera at its upper limit of ISO even top of the line cameras that shoot 100,000+ ISO show a considerable loss of detail at there highest settings.

Focal Length – Again a detail killer if you don't shoot within the capabilities of the lens. A good rule of thumb is you should try and fill your frame as close as possible with your subject at the focal length you are using. At 50mm if only half of your subject is occupying the frame you are going to start losing the ability of the lens to resolve. There are many other factors involved but I am keeping this one simple. Follow the advice above and you will be staying within your lens resolving ability, especially any lens that does not have top of the line optics.

Lens Sharpness – I touched a bit on this but quality of the lens is an obvious factor. A top of the line lens will give you the best results under poor conditions. Ken mentioned a sweet spot that in any lens is not going to be wide open. Most lenses stopped down a step or two will give sharper results. In your case that lens will do better and be sharper at f4 or f5.6. Not really an option when shooting low light. But a lens with great optics will still outperform a lesser lens even shooting wide open. The old adage you get what you pay for is very prevalent in selecting a lens. Don't get me wrong the Tamron lens you are using is a well regarded lens, but it will not be in the same class optically as say a 17-55 that is twice as expensive. That is not always the case but often times that will hold true.

Aperture Settings - Again I touched on that above so I won't beat it to death. This post is already too long! But keep in mind depth of field will come into play here. At the distance you are shooting you have a fairly wide DOF but get closer to the action and start filling your frame and now the dancers in the second and third row will not be sharp. Generally and I know in your case you are focusing on your daughter so if you are shooting tight I wouldn't worry about the other dancers. Keep her sharp. Many folks underestimate DOF and its effect. “Shoot wide open to isolate the subject and blow out the background” is often repeated. But if I am very close to the subject I can still blow out backgrounds stopping down to f5.6! In fact I need to keep facial features with in the DOF.

Camera Capabilities – I also mentioned a bit about that in the above paragraphs. There is a reason why cameras that cost a lot of money will outperform a lower priced camera. Everything mentioned above comes into play. Focus speed is average on your camera coupled with an average focus speed on your lens and....average results which isn't bad under these difficult shooting conditions!

So looking at all these factors what is the conclusion? You really are doing the best you can do with what you have. Shooting dance is a difficult sport that tests your camera, lens and technique. Your shots have a good white balance, you are trying to shoot action at its peak. I know you can't likely get closer to the action but with the 17-50 you are shooting at the outer distance of optimal settings. At your distance you might find the 85/1.8 to be better suited to your shooting. It is definitely harder to shoot a prime lens but I am guessing you are shooting your 17-50 at 50mm the majority of the time.

Ken mentioned uniform colors as well. I find in low light dark uniforms test even the best autofocus systems! That will have a big factor in your success. I would expect a keeper rate in the 35% to 65% range. I would guess that is about where you are. So short of a major equipment upgrade keep doing what you are doing. You can make up for a lower keeper rate by shooting more photos! If you get 50 good shots of your daughter during a competition I would be satisfied. I think you are right on track, that may not be what you want to hear but keep on shooting!

Please to let me know if you are in town for a competition and I would be happy to let you use some equipment that might help you out.

[fishinchicks]

Thanks, Dan! The breakdown is very helpful! While I have loved the camera that I have (thanks, CFRay!), I am thinking that what I want to do in the long run may require an upgrade. I can try out my niece's 7D with my 85mm lens and see what I can do with that combo. She is a graphic design major in college, with an emphasis in photography...she tried shooting a competition with me, but hers didn't turn out much better. Now I think I know why.

Our girls haven't attended a competition in the Cities for a couple of years. The closest they get is Alexandria now.

I really appreciate the time you guys take to help out the posters on this forum!

[finnbay]

Wow!

[Dbl]

I hope I provided some help, I know everyone that posted provided you with good information. It is a great forum for folks looking for advice and the people that participate are the reason why!

The 7D is a difficult camera to shoot well. I should clarify that a bit but the high pixel count on a crop sensor seem to magnify every little mistake to a large degree. When I first got the camera I tried shooting the same as with previous cameras and was a bit disappointed with some of the results outdoors and in! Once I began to experiment with settings and in general upping my shutter speeds the results started to fall more in line with what I was hoping for.

My belief is the 7D requires great glass and high shutter speeds to obtain optimal results. I couldn't get a sharp shot with mine shooting basketball until I upped my shutter speeds to 1/500s to 1/640s. Of course being able to shoot at ISO 5000 or 6400 makes that possible. The Mark IIN at 3200 and 1/320s still produces slightly better results but not by much.

Outdoors in lower light the 7D suffers as well, it just doesn't focus as well. In good light it shines! Even in bright conditions with low contrast subjects it struggles a bit. But again I found I need to shoot at least triple the focal length of the lens to get good results. For instance a 300 (480mm on a 1.6 crop) I need 1/1600s or more to get tack sharp results. A 70-200/2.8 indoors you can see why I need a bit higher shutter speeds.

So there really is no such thing as a perfect camera, they all have their idiosyncrasies and it sometimes takes a bit to figure those out and get optimal results. I think you are doing that with your set up.

[finnbay]

Dan,

I agree on your observations as far as the 7D. Early on I was having difficulty getting consistent results, but by experimenting I have done much better with it. Using increased ISO, along with a faster shutter speed was also the fix for me.

[Dbl]

Ken,

I think just about everyone who is happy with the 7D has had to figure that out! Those that follow conventional techniques don't seem to happy with their results. I am looking for a lightly used Mark IV and will use both that and the Mark IIN as primary and the 7D for a third or sometimes second camera if I need a bit more reach.

[CFRay]

Dan, Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I was trying indoor shots of my granddaughter w/ the 17-50 at 2.8 & 3.2 and had in my head the 1/focal length shutter speed rule. I use a 50D and would up the ISO to see 1/50 or 60 in the viewfinder, (usually ISO400). Next time she's here I'll up that ISO for 1/125. I wonder if the AutoISO setting would have adjusted that for me? Guess I may have forgot that a crop camera is a 1.6 multiplier for focal length.

Thanks Again! Cliff