hydrogen generators- do they improve mileage?

[waxworm09]

I am looking into a hydrogen generator for my 2001 Tahoe. With gas prices expected to hit 4 bucks a gallon or more this summer im afraid im gonna have to sell the Tahoe and get something smaller. Are these the deals where you run water in the system somehow? And does anyone know if they work, what they cost, and any shops in the state that install them? I have heard you can buy all the parts yourself for under 50 bucks but im hoping someone on here knows more about them and has some input for me before I look any further into it. Thanks

[flyfisher03]

It is a scam. Comes down to if it sounds to good to be true it probably is.

[pushbutton]

here is some info i found......copied and pasted....dude seems like he knows what he is talking about, flyfisher just did not need to use as many words

Due to alot of recent complaints from frustrated HHO buyers, I have updated this guide.

With the surge in gas prices, came a surge of people and "companies" selling hydrogen boost generators, systems and devices to increase your fuel economy. The amount of sellers gets bigger with every day. This alone puts up a warning flag.

Included is a brief on the Performance chips, Air Razors, Turbonators, Throttle body spacers, and other "bolt on performance and fuel economy"

This message is for all looking to purchase something of the matter.

Most all of these sellers here on HSO-Classifieds and elswhere on the net state that they have been researching for years and that it is now available to the public. Most all of them say their technology is patent pending and that their system is better than others. Most all of them claim huge "up to" increases in fuel savings.

I have been researching the Economy and Hydrogen world for sometime now. Being a auto mechanic and being not only booksmart but streetsmart, I have decided to try to evade people from throwing away their hard earned cash.

First the Hydrogen deal:

Lets get the facts straight. Water is H2O aka- 2parts Hydrogen, 1part Oxygen combined together. When put under electrolysis or electrosis these molecules split forming a gas known as HHO which is a very explosive and powerful gas. The smallest of sparks can ignite the gas and if stored into container which for some reason caught fire the result could be fatal. No need to get scared though, if the proper precautions are made, no danger is to be seen.

HHO is about 3 times more powerful than gasoline vapor. Meaning 1L of HHO would give your vehicle 300% more power than 1L of gasoline vapor. But feeding an engine pure hho would destroy it due to the fact timing is advanced(spark before TDC) on most vehicles but needs to be retarded(spark after TDC). Also the temperature at which HHO Burns is melting point of the metal it touches. SO...your valves and head would burn through in a matter of weeks. Also in diesel engines if you completely remove diesel from an engine the upper cylinder gets no lubrication and will wear out your piston rings FAST.

Getting enough HHO to power a car is pretty hard if not impossible. Explanation: a 2 cylinder 1L engine uses 1L of air per 4 revolutions (rpm). Gasoline is injected as a mist which turns into a vapor instantly at a ratio of 15 parts air to one part vapor. Which is .07 L. At 2000 RMP the engine uses 1/2L of vapor per SECOND. HHO is already one part oxygen to two parts hydrogen so too much air would thin it out too much and give no explosion. SO, even at a ratio of 10:1 that would require .85 L per second of HHO to power that same engine at 2000RPM. Kinda alot. NO generator I have seen or made can come close to the requirements.

So we use HHO to Boost the efficeincy of our gasoline engine, giving it pure hydrogen and oxygen to let the fuel burn better. This is where the good part starts.

Most sellers are selling systems that give less than 1/2 LPM of HHO. When mixed with the air going to the engine that makes NOTHING. 1/10-1/2 LPM of HHO will do some good for a small engine like 50CC-2.0L again more HHO to the bigger engine. Any engine over this size needs 1+ LPM. Alot of the sellers dont even know how much their system makes! They say "ALOT" but in reality all the cells I have tested that seemed to make alot, made 1/4-3/4 LPM. If the kit supplies gas via an aquarium air line, the system makes nothing, trust me. LOOK OUT FOR THE GAS OUTPUT. I recommend .5-1.0LPM per Liter of engine displacement. Example: 2.0L vehicle should have a 1-2LPM generator for good increase in economy.

Second, if a system uses alot of AMPS, it will fry your alternator and battery in no time which no one will tell you though. Look out for systems that draw over 15AMPs but put out less than 1LPM. This is not a wise investment. A full size truck can handle 25 AMPS but I dont recommend going over 20. Again, putting 20Amps on a 1.8L car, will make the alternator, which is usually 85AMPs, run at a high load and burn out.

MORE EXPENSIVE DOESNT MEAN GOOD!

Upon testing, I find that without proper circulation of air around a unit (which is impossible under the hood of the car where it is already HOT) the unit boils over in a matter of minutes. So it starts drawing more amps, if you start at 10 you will get above 20 at boil. NOT GOOD.

Any system made out of PVC(white) plumbing pipe that draws over 15 amps is likely to boil. That pipe is not made to withstand that kind of temperature. It turns soft and flexible at that temp. It will warp, deform and likely leak in short time if there is any connections below the water line. Watch out for these types of systems.

The biggest concern is that most none of the sellers tell anyone that if you own a EFI (fuel injected) car which most people do, that you will need either an EFIE on your Oxygen sensor, or a resistor on your MAP or MAF sensor. These are fairly easy to build and install but it is a MUST and you will not see much difference in fuel savings without one, you even might see a loss of economy. It is used to trick the computer into thinking that the fuel mix is richer than it is. You want LEAN mix if you are running HHO boost. But too much oxygen in the exhaust will tell the computer to add more fuel which would cancel any HHO boost. Moving the Oxygen sensor out of the pipe but still mounted on the pipe will work on some vehicles (1996o or older). BE WARNED: too lean of a fuel mix WILL burn your valve seats and valve heads! Diesel cars do not suffer from this. I have found that vehicles newer than 1996, are close to impossible to trick. They have too many sensors and emissions systems which trip the CEL and put the vehicle into "safe" mode aka: full rich.

COLD WEATHER PROBLEMS:

As most of us in this country, we get below freezing temperatures in the winter. This causes another problem, Generator Freezing. If you have a sealed unit, once frozen, it will no longer be sealed. Also, a frozen generator does not produce gas until it is thawed, you also must be aware that if the water freezes in the lines, it obviously wont permit the gas from going anywhere. Water expands as is freezes and will break all water tight seals. The only way around this is adding anti-freeze or alchohol. Both of these have their drawbacks. Anti-freeze causes glycol buildup on the plates which hinders HHO production and is very hard to clean off. Alchohol severely lowers the HHO output while keeping the amps about the same but keeps the plates clean.

CONCLUSION!

I have tested many systems and put over $5000 into it all, I have built many different cells and tried many electronics. I have come to a conclusion that as of yet, there is no system out there worth "investing" into just yet. The reason for this is that the energy your car has to spend turning an alternator at full load is equal to running your a/c compressor full time and the fact that your battery suffers from this is even more costly. Add it all up and this "investment" isnt quite that. The cleaning of the cell and the measuring of electrolyte is also time consuming. Keeping it from freezing is also a hassle.

I have run a "Smacksbooster" cell in a Jeep Cherokee 4.0L. I was able to maintain a steady 25-30% increase in economy with a MAP enhancer. If you want to build a cell, build this one, it is fairly cheap and requires no special parts best of all if you use KOH (potassium hydroxide) and distilled water it typically requires no cleaning or maintenance except for adding water. UPDATE: I have tried the Smacksbooster setup on a 1998 Subaru Outback 2.5 DOHC. My trip was from Salt Lake City, UT to Portland, OR, 1600 miles roundtrip. I was unable to get an increase in mileage at all. In some cases, I saw a drop of my usual mileage. I have made this trip without the generator before and recorded all mileage readings. My conclusion is either it is impossible to trick the engine ECM or that the load put on the small engine is equal or more than the efficiency obtained.

I recommend not wasting your money or valuble time on this so called technology.

The Performance economy chip SCAM:

Alot of sellers selling these "performance chips" many have closed doors and opened new ones due to bad feedback.

Stay away from the "performance chips" as they are only a resistor, usually 33K OHM (5pack at Radioshack for $1) that goes on your air intake temperature sensor and give the car a little boost. Whether $40 or $.99 on HSO-Classifieds, they are the same and dont do anything for gas mileage as the sellers state. The shipping is outrageous too.

The AirRazor or Turbonator or anything of the sort will not do anything for fuel economy as they restrict the air flow to the engine. Especially at high RPM. They state it makes a Vortex and mixes the air and fuel better to let it burn but what really happens is it makes Turbulence which slows down airflow which is exactly opposite of what we want. Chrome the inside of your intake manifold and install a smooth intake if you want performance with economy.

Fuel magnets do not work on gasoline cars as I have tested several different vehicles. They do help diesel engines. Several people for whom I have installed my magnets, say increases of 5-20% in economy. Stay away from Fuel Master (cheap ceramic magnets).

Fuel heaters do not do anything for fuel injected gasoline cars as the gasoline is already heated hot enough. They do work wonders on diesel as the fuel always returns to the tank and cools again never getting a chance to heat up hot enough for proper combustion.

Throttle body spacers dont do anything for a vehicle unless it is in full throttle position which is obviously not the point of saving gas. I have heard from two people that the AirRaid spacer increases economy 2.5-4 MPG on Chevy trucks.

Most economy devices only do good for the sellers and their fat wallets.

A good investment is a nice set of sparkplugs every 75K(Bosch 2 or 4, Iridium, e3), a new set of ignition wires every 50-75K miles, a new fuel filter, a high flow air filter (K&N, AirRaid, Fujita will last longer than your car) dont go for the China "cold air intake filter" Cheap foam will let ALOT of dust through.

Proper inflation of tires is a must. You can lose 10% for every 5PSI your tires are under-inflated. Extra junk has to go. A 100LBs will drop you 10% on a smaller car.

Use a fuel injector cleaner once in a while. I use 1/2oz. of ATF per gallon of gas at fillup. It cleans and lubes the entire fuel system and adds a couple mpg's. Change your oil on time with the proper viscosity oil. Install an oil filter magnet to go longer between oil changes. Fill up at a quality gas station ALWAYS. I tested fuel from various "cheap stations" and you dont want to know what I found.

Here is a list of wasted money courtesy of ME.

Water4Gas (no NEW technology here, just FREE info from the web, a pathetic electrolyser design and a waste of time) These are the glass jar generators selling on HSO-Classifieds.

RunYourCarwithWater (Hydrostar manual for $50)

RunMyCarwithWater (Same Bull)

Thermo1 (you want a leaky system, this is the way to go)

Protium Fuel Systems (Selling things they dont have and dont want to return your money)

HydroStar Manuals for sale on HSO-Classifieds (the MOST EXPENSIVE and hardest system to TEST your money on. Based on his theory and no proof. Dont waste your money and time.)

Hydrocar is the hydrostar

GEET (I find it possible for it to work only on a fixed RPM engine)

mybetterworld (the system seems to work for a few days at a time before cleaning needs to be done @ $1050, I dont think so. Try it if you wish)

HHO Express (the systems make little HHO output, their biggest system would work well for an engine up to 6.0)

Turbonator $89

RedLine Performance chip $25 (closed store)

Fuel Master Fuel Magnet $30 (cheap ceramic magnets)

Throttle Body spacer $50

Orgone Generators $89 (mega bull)

I put up all the info a person needs to know to make an informed decision on where to put their hard earned money. Best off, use your common sense, if a system costs $1000, you wont pay it off in savings before you get rid of the car probably.

Email me with questions and comments to matlashevsky_85-yahoo.com (replace - with @)

If this was helpful, vote yes please. If not let me know what I missed. Thanks everyone!

[Jeremy airjer W]

I can tell you how to save about a $100 a month in gas and you'll have the investment paid off in about 10 months if you drive more than 200 miles a week.

[delcecchi]

If using your engine to generate electricity to make hydrogen to burn in the engine to make electricity to make hydrogen actually worked you would get rich from the nobel prize since you would have achieved the PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE and overthrown the current laws of Physics.

If any of these cheap gadgets worked, wouldn't the auto companies have incorporated them to raise the CAFE and make more money?

[croixflats]

I can tell you how to save about a $100 a month in gas and you'll have the investment paid off in about 10 months if you drive more than 200 miles a week.

It only works car pooling otherwise how do you get the car up a hill.

[Jeremy airjer W]

Nope. You will have room for a family of four, still have all the comforts (heat, A/C, etc). No games no gimmicks. This is my third year doing this and the savings are great. It's amazing how easy and cheaply you can double your mileage.

[311Hemi]

I can tell you how to save about a $100 a month in gas and you'll have the investment paid off in about 10 months if you drive more than 200 miles a week.

?

[Powerstroke]

Well, Airjer?

[croixflats]

You got me wondering now because I thought it might be a riddle.

The answer to the riddle in my head was; If you bought 8 gallons of fuel at $3.12 a gallon that makes $25 spent and if the average car gets 25 MPG, 8 gallons X 25 MPG makes 200 miles traveled multiply that by 4 is $100 spent and by pushing the car you save $100.

Now of course that was in my head and who knows how that works.

[Powerstroke]

Well, Airjer?

[Jeremy airjer W]

There is no secret.

If you get 17 with your truck than find a smaller car that gets double the mileage. Not that hard to do. The trick is to find a good one for under a thousand bucks. I drive 200 miles a week just to bring my kids to school and easily put on 275 miles a week total.

275 miles at 17mpg = 16 gallons at $3 a gallon = $48 a week

275 miles at 34mpg = 8 gallons at $3 a gallon = $24 a week

The amount saved is $24 a week. The first week pays for the insurance. The other weeks pay for the car 10 - 12 months.

For those of you that argue maintenance you would be paying for maintenance if you where driving the 17mpg vehicle so its a wash since you will be paying for much less maintenance on the vehicle you don't drive.

You can spend all your money on the hydrogen generators (we open the hoods on a couple of our customers cars and see them) or you can double your mileage in the real world.

The other thing you can do is build your own still and convert your car to alcohol. The government will pay you to do this. The permits are free, you can make it from cattails (free on the side of the road) and fire the still with the cattails or wood (may or may not be free). There are a few things you need to do to the vehicle to make it work and the cost of the equipment to make the still. After that the government sends you a check for every gallon and you save $3 for every gallon you make. If your vehicle is already E-85 compliant you won't have to do nothing to it!

This is a more likely and reasonable avenue to pursue rather than the hydrogen generator!

[croixflats]

The simple riddle explanation busted buy ingenuity .

[Jeremy airjer W]

Quote:

Sorry for going there but PBC is to be cut.

PBC ?

[croixflats]

I deleted my bull never mind me. This is not the place, as you asked Public Broad Casting. OOPs PBS Please delete this.