Thoughts on Pike regulations (40"+)

[walleye101]

.....or ad a different statement of your own that you think most can agree on.

[AWH]

Excellent list to focus on, Walleye101! I'm curious if there are any studies out there that show the effects on a fishery that hammer handles can have. For those that have seen lakes change from healthy pike populations to ones with a large population of small fish, I think most of us realize that this change can have a significant effect on all species. It would be interesting to see some actual data that shows these effects. It could be an eye opener to help folks see how important the northern pike (specifically a healthy population) is to our fisheries.

Aaron

[AWH]

The below is an excellent article that was published in the Minnesota Conservation Volunteer. It touches on a lot of great talking points. One significant thing missing is discussion on the effects that a stunted population have on our fisheries. But overall, an excellent article

One quote that I found very interesting in the article:

1) Studies of pike population density in Minnesota lakes show that pike 24 inches or longer make up a very small part of a typical population, according to Pierce. For every 100 acres of water, researchers found pike less than 20 inches are very abundant—more than 800 on average. That same water probably holds only 60 pike longer than 24 inches.

Given these numbers, less than 6% of a typical pike population (the above numbers don't estimate the number between 20" and 24", so it could be significantly less than 6%) is over 24". This shows why that lower end of the slot is most often down to 24" and why it's so important to protect those fish.

Aaron

Below is the article.

------------

In Pursuit of Prize Pike

Lunker northern pike are as much a part of Minnesota's oversized lore

as Paul Bunyan. But what is the true story of big pike in Minnesota waters?

by Michael A. Kallok

At age 57, Lyle Swanson caught the trophy northern pike he had been chasing for most of his life.To do it, he hiked for hours through deep snow, drilled ice holes with a hand auger, and endured two nights of subzero temperatures in a tent.

"I was getting old. I wanted to catch that 20-pound fish, a 40-incher," Swanson says. After decades of striking out on easier pike waters, Swanson joined a group of younger men, including his son, Shane, on a trek seven miles deep into the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. There, Swanson hooked his trophy on Basswood Lake.

Trophy pike aren't intrinsically hard to catch. The challenge in Minnesota is finding one, according to Rod Pierce, a DNR fisheries biologist who has studied Esox lucius for more than two decades.

Since the 1940s, large pike have become increasingly uncommon in the state's waters. The reason for their scarcity is simple: Trophy pike end up on the wall. Large pike (fish longer than 24 inches) end up in frying pans. And to produce trophy-sized pike, a lake needs large pike.

A 15-year DNR study of 23 lakes with special regulations shows that protecting some pike from harvest can maintain or restore a lake's population of large pike.

Big and Vulnerable.

Like any long-lived, slow-growing fish species, northern pike are vulnerable to overharvest. It takes three to five years for a pike to reach 24 inches. If a pike is really lucky and survives for 10 years, it can grow to 35 inches or longer, says Pierce. Studies of pike population density in Minnesota lakes show that pike 24 inches or longer make up a very small part of a typical population, according to Pierce. For every 100 acres of water, researchers found pike less than 20 inches are very abundant—more than 800 on average. That same water probably holds only 60 pike longer than 24 inches.

Big Contest

A long-running big-fish contest sponsored by Fuller's Hardware Store and Tackle Shop in Park Rapids illustrates the steady decline of large northern pike in Minnesota. DNR researchers examined contest records including 29,541 pike entered from 1930 to 1987. They discovered the average weight of those pike entered in the contest shrank from 10.1 pounds in the 1930s to 6.8 pounds in the 1980s.

The liberal 25-pike-a-day limit of 1920 had been reduced to a three- fish bag limit by 1948. Despite this stricter limit, big pike entries began a decades-long nosedive after the 1950 season, when close to 300 trophy pike were measured and weighed at Fuller's store. By the 1980s, fewer than 100 big pike were being entered in the contest annually.

Big Fish, Little Fish

Healthy fish populations are comprised of fish of a wide range of ages and sizes. Because pike generally reach sexual maturity by age 2, the absence of older, larger fish in a population doesn't limit natural reproduction—as long as the lake has adequate spawning habitat. With angling pressure focused on fish longer than 20 inches, a lake will have an overabundance of small pike. Special regulations are designed to protect older, larger northern pike. But because pike are slow-growing, increasing the population of larger pike takes time. These graphs compare trap net data from different years on Medicine Lake near Bemidji. Data from 1988, the year before special pike regulations took effect, shows an overabundance of pike less than 20 inches. The most current trap net data, from 2002 and 2003, shows how the number of larger pike increased after 14 years of special regulations.

Dark-House Dilemma

Not everyone is happy with the new special regulations on pike. Dark-house spearers, who have no sure way to judge the size of a fish underwater, either have to be very conservative in targeting pike on lakes with slot limits or find another place to spear. "We came up with this large, amorphous goal of improving opportunities to catch large pike, while at the same time maintaining both harvesting and spearing," DNR fisheries biologist Rod Pierce explains. "If you look at these two things, they look like conflicting goals. Fortunately, in Minnesota we're blessed with a huge northern pike resource—one that should be able to provide opportunities for everyone. The main issue, then, is determining how many lakes should be set aside with special regulations, and where those lakes should be located."

In lakes with good natural reproduction, the fishery can afford harvest of fish less than 20 inches, Pierce says. But creel surveys have shown that anglers aren't as willing to take smaller pike home. And common pike-angling methods, using large lures and bait, are effective at catching larger pike. A DNR study of seven northern Minnesota lakes found that, on average, anglers harvested more than 20 percent of the population of large pike annually.

Experimental Regulations.

In response to Minnesota's lack of large pike, the DNR launched a study in 1989 to examine whether special regulations could produce more large pike in Minnesota lakes. The study experimented with several types of length limits that restricted which pike anglers could keep. For example, a slot limit of either 20 to 30 inches or 22 to 30 inches was implemented on five north-central lakes (all pike within the slot had to be released). Three of the five lakes showed increased populations of large pike during the study. Medicine Lake near Bemidji, which received a protected slot of 22–30 inches, fared particularly well. From 1989 to 2003, the fishery's proportion of pike longer than 20 inches increased from 7 percent to 39 percent.

Steve Addler, who has owned Cedar Rapids Lodge on Medicine Lake for 24 years, promoted the regulation to guests. And after a few years, his guests started catching and releasing more large pike. The proof hangs on a wall inside the lodge where guests post measurements of memorable pike they let go.

Before the slot was introduced, guests were catching lots of smaller pike but only one or two fish over 30 inches in an entire season, according to Addler. Seven years after the slot went into effect, at least one 30-inch pike was caught every week. In 2007 the slot was changed to 24–36 inches, and today guests regularly catch pike longer than 36 inches, he says.

"Basically the fish have grown up," Addler says. "We think it's really helped fishing, and it's helped our business too." On some large lakes, traditional hot spots for trophy pike, the DNR established slot limits to protect populations that already had larger-sized pike. Lake of the Woods got a 30–40 inch protected slot, and Mille Lacs received a 26–36 inch slot. For comparison, researchers also studied Lake Winnibigoshish and Leech Lake, which received no special protection for pike.

Monitoring at Lake of the Woods showed the slot limit increased the population's proportion of fish over 30 inches by 9 percent. Modest improvements in size structure were observed at Mille Lacs, while the population of large pike on Winnibigoshish and Leech lakes decreased.

Large Goal.

After more than a decade of analyzing the experimental pike regulations, the DNR reached a conclusion: Special regulations can produce bigger pike. In 2002 DNR fisheries directors set special pike regulations for some lakes based on their potential to produce large or trophy-sized pike.

For lakes with the greatest potential to produce trophy pike (low pike population density and good habitat), the DNR designated a 40-inch minimum length limit to protect pike until they approach trophy size. For southern Minnesota lakes with limited spawning and nursery habitat but low population density, the DNR prescribed a 30-inch minimum. For lakes with few large pike but abundant smaller pike, the DNR designed a 24–36 inch protected slot. The slot allows anglers to keep small pike but protects these medium-sized fish so they can grow larger.

"[These] regulations were sent to fisheries managers around the state with the idea that they would look at pike populations in their area and pick out some lakes that could benefit from the regulations," Pierce says.

In 2003, following public input meetings, the DNR added special regulations to 70 lakes around the state. Most lakes were given a 24–36 inch protected slot limit.

Long-range Plan.

Today 106 of the 3,351 Minnesota waters containing pike have special regulations. With the exception of Olmsted County, no special pike regulations have been added since 2008, when the final draft of Minnesota's Long Range Plan for Muskellunge and Large Northern Pike Through 2020 was published. The plan called for special pike regulations on up to 125 waters. But public comments were divided. Some people didn't think the plan went far enough to protect pike; others thought it was too restrictive.

"We ended up with very different opinions about what pike fishing should look like in Minnesota," Pierce says. While the science of managing pike has improved greatly since the 1950s, Pierce says the social dimension of pike management remains tricky, largely because Minnesotans target pike for different reasons: Some prize trophy pike; others angle to take home a meal; and some enjoy the hard-water pursuit of dark-house spearing for northern pike.

"That's where the social issues come into play," Pierce says. "Regulations reduce harvest in order to increase the numbers of larger pike, and not everybody agrees that reduced harvest is a worthwhile tradeoff."

The DNR has contracted with the University of Minnesota to survey pike anglers and spearers to get a clearer picture of what they want.

But it's already clear that many Minnesotans want trophy pike. Plenty of anglers will drop big bucks on a flight to a remote Canadian resort where hooking a toothy behemoth is just short of guaranteed. And some Minnesota anglers, like Lyle Swanson, want to catch a trophy pike in their home state.

"A lot of big pike come from out of the country," says Swanson, whose prize pike from Basswood Lake measured 40 inches. "I wanted one from Minnesota. Mine was made in the U.S.A."

[merkman]

You just have to love the bias shown by the MnDNR.

Quote:

"Dark-house spearers, who have no sure way to judge the size of a fish underwater"

By reading that quote you would think that the hook and line method does have a sure way to judge the size of a fish underwater.

The truth is that with either method the fish has to be taken out of the water before the true length of the northern pike can be determined. (the true length of a northern pike in Minnesota is determined by a tail pinch)

The punishment for killing a slot limit northern pike in Minnesota with the hook and line method is to place the dead slot limit northern pike down the hole and contiune fishing.

The punishment for killing a slot limit northern pike in Minnesota with the darkhouse spearing method is to call a CO and face a criminal record.

I will remind you that both legal methods of fishing in Minesota were around well before these slot limit rules were put in place.

My simple request to the MnDNR is to apply the slot limit rules to the sportsman fairly, regardless of the method. I don't think that is too much to ask.

_

[walleye101]

The punishment for killing a slot limit northern pike in Minnesota with the hook and line method is to place the dead slot limit northern pike down the hole and contiune fishing.

So much for taking this discussion in a positive direction..........

What possible outcome do you hope to accomplish by continuing to repeat the same false premise over and over?

For what seems like the thousand and first time........,hook and line anglers are not putting dead slot limit pike down the hole. Hook and line anglers are releasing live pike with a high probability of survival.

[merkman]

What possible outcome do you hope to accomplish by continuing to repeat the same false premise over and over

Sorry GoBlueM, looks like I am wrong for answering too.

[AWH]

What exactly did you "answer", Merk? Maybe you need to reconsider how you respond. 99% of your canned replies do not answer the questions asked of you. Try to answer direct questions with direct answers. Not only will people respond more favorably (no matter if they agree with you or not). But you might actually be able to get somewhere and create (and even add to) a constructive discussion.

As I have mentioned previously, let's start with where there is agreement and go from there. No one is going to get anywhere by always jumping on where two sides don't see eye to eye. Walleye101 brought up some great bullet points as well to help aid in a discussion that can go in a positive direction.

Some questions to ask in regards to pike management:

* What do we want from our fisheries?

* How does the fish population need to change (or maybe it doesn't) to get to that point?

* What type of regulations will help to achieve those changes (there can be more than one option)?

* Is it possible to set regulations that will make everyone happy? (The answer to this is no.)

AFTER we answer these questions, it leads us to this.

* How do we implement regulations that both satisfy the ultimate goal of where we want our fisheries to be while at the same time making concessions for each interest group that's out there?

We have way too many people trying to tell the DNR how to do their job. In essence, it's people trying to answer this last question of "how to implement" without taking into account the answers to the previous questions.

There are a lot of complex issues in regards to pike management and fisheries management as a whole. But they are issues that can be addressed. It's the implementation that (in my opinion) is the most difficult given the wide variety of interests by all of us that use our resources. It's why we pay people to manage our fisheries. Those people are not our legislators.

Aaron

[merkman]

It's why we pay people to manage our fisheries. Those people are not our legislators.

Aaron

[AWH]

Merk, if you always want to turn a discussion into something else, why don't you start a new thread? You clearly have no interest in discussing the topic at hand.

For the record, I think it's great that we have sportsman's group such as Muskies, Inc. that are willing to help fund fisheries management (many other groups do as well). Giving back to the resource. I've never heard of this being a bad thing. But apparently you have a problem with this, which I find ironic. But to each their own. I can only hope that every sportsman's group contributes financially back to the resource that they take advantage of.

I find it interesting that anti-muskie people will complain (I saw this very thing in a recent Outdoor News) that if "muskie people" want more lakes with muskies, that they should put their money where their mouth is and actually help fund the issue. (Clearly an uneducated person that has no idea how much they already do - and are willing to do). I see and hear this "complaint" often. And then the next person (see above post) complains that muskie interests DO contribute financially. Again, a case of never being able to make everyone happy. If someone wants to complain, they'll find something to complain about - valid or not.

Now, back to the topic...PIKE MANAGEMENT.

Aaron

[Muskiefool]

Has anyone ever been fined or put in prison for accidentally spearing a slot fish fallowing the instructions widely known to all from the CO's?

I feel bad; even sad for people when they say things that make no sense, when for instance they echo the words and conviction of Animal liberationists over and over, then proclaim that those in direct conflict with those liberationists ideals are the animal liberationists, not surprised though. Do a little research, don't let the tenets you have formed outside of fact and common knowledge be dictated by emotion, ideals and aberrations; form the doctrines only shared by you as fact.

It just looks bad.

[SmellEsox]

Merk brings up an interesting point regarding angling release mortality using tip ups. I doubt if that has ever been studied as I think it would be very difficult to do. I suppose you could put tip up caught fish in a large crib of some kind to observe the mortality rate. I never did like crib studies though. While water temps would make it an ideal time for catch and release fishing, using live bait ups the chance for mortality be it immediate or delayed. Can circle hooks be used with a tip up? Anyone ever tried it? Maybe tip ups with a hook setting feature designed in would be better??? Do they exist? Any method that reduces mortality of released fish should be considered by anglers in my opinion.

[AWH]

Circle hooks work great. That's all I've ever used on tip ups, actually. I've never had one gut hooked on them. And they're always hooked right where they're supposed to be, right in the corner of the mouth. And my hook up ratio is every bit as good as others I've fished with that are using quick strikes. Given that you don't always see the flag as soon as it goes up, I think circles are a great idea. For others reading that might not know, please note that circle hooks are different than single hook swallow rigs (bad news!).

Aaron

[foulpole18]

Aaron I would hope that you wouldn't except a direct answer from Merk. We all know that never happens. I feel sorry for the spearers that will be effected by Merk and the MDAA direction. I only speak for myself when I say that before reading Merks thoughts and comments about muskies and pike management, I couldn't have cared less if people speared. After reading his comments (I know only 1 persons opinion), I could care less if it gets banned. Maybe Muskie Inc should go to a legislator to get spearing banned. Turn abouts fair play you know. I would hope that it doesn't have to come to that.

Merk it would be nice if you would answer direct questions directly. Instead you give canned responses that deflect from the actual subject. I think you like to think that your helping the spearing cause, but I don't think that is the case.

I have no problem with people harvesting pike. I do it myself. There is nothing better than some pike for dinner after a day on the ice. There is responsible harvest and there is just harvesting because you caught something. I would rather catch fewer pike with a larger average size than to catch a bunch of hammerhandles. Slot limits seem to help that be a reality in my experience. And the darkhouse association must think the same way otherwise they wouldn't want to do away with slot limits. Otherwise they wouldn't want to get the regs dropped so they could spear whatever sized pike they want, wherever they want.

[Muskiefool]

Maybe Muskie Inc should go to a legislator to get spearing banned. Turn abouts fair play you know. I would hope that it doesn't have to come to that.

Not going to happen, we all realize there are a few that take the outspoken anti-Pike, Muskie, Angler (open and Ice) pro animal liberationists position. We'll leave it to others to continue their fight against sportsmen. Many Muskies Inc and Muskie fisherman are responsible spearers.

[foulpole18]

I have friends that do both, hence the reason I hope Muskie Inc wouldn't go the way of the darkhouse association and run to a politician. But at the same time the unwillingness to work with other groups and do away with their (MDAA) my way or the highway attitude is a real turn off to their cause.

[cbrooks]

Can't judge a whole group by one person. I like hearing the fact that Muskie Inc and Muskie Alliance are trying to work with the MDAA. I'm holding out hope it will happen somehow. This fight didn't start overnight...give it time.

[walleye101]

Now, back to the topic...PIKE MANAGEMENT.

Aaron

In that interest, here is a list maybe most can agree on.

1) Pike biology is complex.

2) Pike populations function differently in different lake types.

3) Pike harvest (by any method) can effect pike population size structure.

4) Pike population size structure can be manipulated by how harvest is managed.

5) Pike size structure can effect pike abundance.

6) Pike size structure and abundance can effect other aspects of the fish community.

7) Pike management is complex because the are different users involved with different objectives.

8) Pike harvest (responsible and sustainable)is an important objective to a large portion of users.

9) Pike quality (size)is an important objective to a large portion of users.

10) No user group has sole right to dictate pike management for all waters.

I'm sure not everyone will agree with all of these. If not pick an number and explain why you disagree.

[cbrooks]

.

7) Pike management is complex because the are different users involved with different objectives.

.

Good list Walleye 1010. I think #7 here is the one that needs to be hash out. If anybody has a answer. Please say it.

[Muskiefool]

2 more for your list eye101 BTW great list.

Pike numbers effect Walleye stocking success and cost; Pike are the only fish considered in the factor for stocking Walleyes.

Pike are genetically the same in Canada and the USA.

[walleye101]

2 more for your list eye101 BTW great list.

Pike numbers effect Walleye stocking success and cost; Pike are the only fish considered in the factor for stocking Walleyes.

Pike are genetically the same in Canada and the USA.

Pike/walleye interaction would fall under number 6, but certainly worth more discussion.

Genetics is a very important point worth a number of it's own.

[goblueM]

Merk brings up an interesting point regarding angling release mortality using tip ups. I doubt if that has ever been studied as I think it would be very difficult to do. I suppose you could put tip up caught fish in a large crib of some kind to observe the mortality rate. I never did like crib studies though. While water temps would make it an ideal time for catch and release fishing, using live bait ups the chance for mortality be it immediate or delayed. Can circle hooks be used with a tip up? Anyone ever tried it? Maybe tip ups with a hook setting feature designed in would be better??? Do they exist? Any method that reduces mortality of released fish should be considered by anglers in my opinion.

Wisconsin did it in the 1990s...

Dubois, R.B., T.L. Margenau, R.S. Stewart, P.K. Cunningham, and P.W. Rasmussen. 1994. Hooking mortality of northern pike angled through ice. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 14:769-775

They had a bunch of anglers catch pike on commercial tip-ups, mostly using live suckers and treble hooks. They created several large holding areas in the lake itself using nets, and examined 48-hr mortality. Only 1 fish of the 161 caught on treble hooks died during the study period. Obviously there could have been delayed mortality, and the anglers were probably more careful than the general public and were well equipped to remove hooks, but still a pretty surprising mortality rate.

Interestingly enough, the flag time didn’t significantly impact whether the fish died or not – it ranged from 10 seconds to 5 minutes, and averaged 1.5 minutes.

They also had 24 fish caught on “pike hooks”, also called “Swedish hooks” which I’d never seen before

8 of the 24 fish caught on these pike hooks died. Not surprisingly, fish hooked in the esophagus/stomach were more prone to dying

Overall they had a 5% mortality rate - much lower than I expected

[merkman]

Maybe Muskie Inc should go to a legislator to get spearing banned. Turn abouts fair play you know. I would hope that it doesn't have to come to that.

Your a day late and a dollar short on that one.

It happened 20+ years ago and these groups still maintain the need to ban fellow sportsmen.

[gotum]

So now informing a group that is mostly opposed to a piece of legislation what the stance of the organization is. Is the same thing as trying to circumvent the DNR with your own legislation?

[foulpole18]

Merk lets be realistic for a minute. You and I both know that you and the darkhouse association won't be happy till you can spear everywhere without any size restrictions. Who cares about the fishery, as long as you can spear everywhere who cares right Merk. I think spearing without slots on over 3000 lakes would probably be reasonable. But then again it must not be based on what you say.

I have yet to hear anyone say they are against responsible harvest of pike. Not this thread or any others on this site. Yet be in favor of slots on some lakes is a ban on harvesting pike in your mind. Why Merk? I just don't see it.

[cbrooks]

I think its pretty obvious what merk thinks about making a truce and maybe working together . Hopefully some people will keep an open mind on both sides.