organization to help Northern Pike fishery

[RK]

Hiya -

Just a quick note on the acreage Merk cites in his post above...

Two of the lakes on the list and included in that total are Mille Lacs and Lake of the Woods.

In the case of Mille Lacs, pike harvest is regulated under the 1837 Treaty ruling as by-catch to the walleye netting. A slot keeps angler harvest down to keep the by catch under the ceiling when the lake is netted. Basically, pike are a sideshow to the walleye quotas.

Lake of the Woods is managed jointly with the Canadians and the US slots basically follow the Canadian slots. From talking to the Canadians (I know some guys in the Kenora office that manages LoTWs) if MN eliminated the pike slot, the Canadians would go berserk...

In both cases you can pretty much remove those two lakes from the discussion about lifting those nasty, unfair horrible slots. Those two bodies of water are roughly 472,000 of the 675,000 acres Merk cites.

I'm still wondering though...why is being required to follow the same rules as 99% of the other anglers discrimination? Still don't get that...

[merkman]

Lake of the Woods is managed jointly with the Canadians and the US slots basically follow the Canadian slots. From talking to the Canadians (I know some guys in the Kenora office that manages LoTWs) if MN eliminated the pike slot, the Canadians would go berserk...

[jeffreyd]

Solution to the problem is to close the whole thing down and make everyone sit on the side and simply watch the habitat and fishery go south. Clearly Merkman your statements have been the same in each reply, the issue of criminal charges vs the hook method or catch and release method deaths. You have said you have an option, to look and release, which to me means that you can see the fish pretty clearly. Compare that to some guy with his kid that are trolling around a lake and catch a pike on a spoon. The folks in the boat may not have been targeting pike but they caught one, could not see it so the release it. Now the mortality on that fish is low but a chance that it may become a floater. How can you even suggest that this is the same? Why not just close down dark house spearing and you can ice fish like everyone else? The amount of money that is brought in is nil so what is the loss?

Do you sit at home or in your dark house and beat your head against the wall? Because this is the only reason you can come up with to open all the waters to spearing. There is no way you or your group would fish all of the lakes if they opened them up, so why not take the 3000+ that you currently have and go sit in the dark?

As I have said before, the same old reason and rant wont work to get anything changed, it comes in numbers with an agenda that makes sense.

[Nick Kuhn]

Removing small pike also isn't the way to gain larger pike. That 22" fish is not going to stay 22" forever. If you kill it then an 18" fish fills it's niche, not a 26".

Your day will go from:

10 fish: 20", 20", 21", 21", 22", 24", 24", 25", 26", 34" average: 23.7"

to

5 fish: 20", 21", 22", 24", 34" average: 24.2"

Average size went up, but you didn't catch any more 30+ inch fish. Now all you have is a lake with fewer pike given the opportunity to survive to a larger size, and now because fewer small fish are being caught there is more incentive for other anglers to keep bigger fish.

Contrary to what you here about muskie fishing here the average muskie is only about 34" long. And with pike the average fish is never going to be much more than 28" long. There will always be lot's of small pike regardless of the number of large pike. And small pike and large pike for the most part target different forage so small pike aren't going to eat all the food in the lake (in fact often they'll become big pike food).

[merkman]

I hear what you are saying Nick.

More pike or bigger pike.

Pick one.

[AWH]

These people need to stop ignoring that the current implementation of slot limits are indeed biased against darkhouse spearing sportsmen who wish to help the fishery by harvesting smaller northern pike from these lakes without being made a criminal the same honest mistake of a dead slot limit fish that hook and liners walk away from. To put it in simpler terms, treat darkhouse spearers as you treat hook and liners on these lakes.

Since anglers and spearers have the exact same regulations and are treated exactly the same on these waters, you are already getting what you want, Merk. You should be happy. Know before you throw and there will be no "accidentally killing a fish" that you claim happens with a spear. Personally, I have never seen or heard of such a thing. But since you claim it does, I'll believe you. Know before you throw would solve this. If you're encouraging that spearers should not have to know before you throw, maybe we should expand that same mentality to hunting. How does that sound to you?

Aaron

[merkman]

Since anglers and spearers have the exact same regulations and are treated exactly the same on these waters

Aaron

[AWH]

Merk, you need to make up your mind. First you want anglers and spearers to be treated the same. Then in the next breath you don't. You want spearers to have extra privileges. So which is it? You can spear and angle in the same hole at the same time. If you don't know, catch it by hook and line. Don't throw the spear which you know will result in a dead fish. The harvest laws are identical for me whether I'm throwing a spear or I'm using a hook and line. Identical, Merk, there is zero difference. Get it? I have never once in my life felt I'm being discriminated against no matter which method I choose to use and no matter if I'm on a slot lake or not. I have the right to harvest a legal fish. I don't have the right to throw a spear at a fish that I don't know is legal. And I don't have the right to harvest a fish by hook and line that I don't know is legal. Ever been fishing without a tape measure? I have. It meant I had to know before I harvested. Very simple and very fair.

Take a step back for a second and ask yourself this. Ask yourself if this is something that isn't fair or if it's just something that you don't like. There's a big difference. And one where it's very clouded in your mind. Only in fantasy land will you like every law/regulation in the books.

So again, which is it. Do you want spearers and anglers to be treated the same? Or do you think that you should be granted special privileges because you're throwing a spear?

We've all heard about your underwater tail pinch dilemma. We all get it. Such is life when you choose a method of possessing a fish that will result in a dead fish. If angling with a hook and line was going to result in a certain dead fish with every fish that bit, I would only site fish where I knew what I was going to be catching/harvesting. If I didn't know with certainty that it was a legal fish, I wouldn't make the cast.

Aaron

[merkman]

Your right Arron,

Unintentionally killed slot limit pike via hook and line - acceptable.

Unintentionally killed slot limit pike via darkhouse spear - criminal.

No changes needed.

Carry On.

Feel free to disparage me for just walking away now.

[Cooter]

Unintentionally killed slot limit pike via darkhouse spear

[merkman]

Unintentionally killed slot limit pike via darkhouse spear

[AWH]

Merk, in your opinion, when you put a spear in the back of a northern pike, what will happen to that fish?

Aaron

[merkman]

Merk, in your opinion, when you put a spear in the back of a northern pike, what will happen to that fish?

Aaron

Unintentionally-

The same thing that will happen to a fish unintentionally killed with a hook and line.

They will both be dead.

Intentionally-

The same thing that will happen to a fish intentionally killed with a hook and line and cut up with a fillet knife.

They will both be dead.

Yes aarron DEAD is DEAD

To deny that either method will not result in unintentional kills IMHO is foolish.

Responsible law abiding darkhouse spearing sportsmen know this and the difference in treatment for the same "crime" of a dead slot limit northern pike is why most darkhouse spearers stay off these slot limit lakes.

Those who wish to ban all darkhouse spearing know this and they use these "politically correct" darkhouse spearing bans to push their own agenda. That is why they push to make sure the small changes needed to include darkhouse spearers in the future management of northern pike are not made. Just as they push to maintain the current outright darkhouse spearing bans on the the 26 "old waters", even though it is proven that darkhouse spearers and anglers can coexist on the 100+ "new waters".

These are public resources and should be treated as such.

Get rid of the egos, politics, and grandstanding.

There is enough room out there for all of us.

[AWH]

Surprisingly, Merk, you had trouble answering a very direct question with a direct answer. That's very unlike you. So I will assume that you know that the INTENT and end result of dropping a spear on a pike is to kill it, right? There is no "unintentional". So I guess this brings us to the following question. How do you unintentionally aim and throw your spear at a pike?

I hate to bring up hunting again as an analogy as hunting and fishing are very different. But when a tool used in both is used only with the intent to kill, it allows the analogy to be made. And I have NEVER heard from a hunter that has ever shot an animal and said he unintentionally killed it. Is this just a spearing thing? Or just a Steve Merkling thing? Don't bring up slots again. It has nothing to do with slots. We all understand the issue with spearing on slot lakes. We're talking about intent and breaking a law that is very black and white. If you're on a slot lake, you know what's legal and what's not. It's either legal or it's not, case closed.

If you take over your bag limit by spearing, are you going to use the "intent" card there too? I know you're smart enough to realize that this would not be a logical defense. But it's the same fish. One is in the protect slot, which is illegal. One is over your bag limit, which is illegal. How can you argue unintentional on one and not the other? You are choosing on both fish to kill it.

Aaron

[Cooter]

More pike or bigger pike.

Pick one.

So which is it for you?

[merkman]

If you're on a slot lake, you know what's legal and what's not. It's either legal or it's not, case closed.

Aaron

If we were to assume that an underwater tail pinch on a live fish 6 to 8 feet below me would allow me to be 100% right 100% of the time you would be correct.

Unfortunately in real life that is not the case.

We know that the catch and release method can not be used without killing slot limit fish and the rules were set up to take that into account. That is why an angler is allowed to kill a slot limit northern pike and walk away from the "crime".

With the current implementation of slot limit lakes, darkhouse spearers are not that fortunate.

Kinda makes a guy wonder if angling and darkhouse spearing were both around before the slot limit rules were created, why are there exceptions for angling but no exceptions can be made for darkhouse spearers?

Something has to be done to allow responsible darkhouse spearing sportsmen to responsibly harvest small northern pike from slot limit lakes without being made a criminal for an honest mistake. Just as anglers are treated on slot limit lakes?

Many ways to get it done once we get past the denial of the problem.

And yes unintentional kills of slot limit northern pike happen with both methods. Deny it all you want aarun it won't change reality.

[merkman]

More pike or bigger pike.

Pick one.

[Cooter]

What constitutes 'responsible' harvest in your opinion and how does it correlate to your old signature of 'Thanks for all the fish'?

[merkman]

What constitutes 'responsible' harvest in your opinion and how does it correlate to your old signature of 'Thanks for all the fish'?

Click Here to see the correlation

[Cooter]

That explains part B of the question, any comment on part A?

[merkman]

That explains part B of the question, any comment on part A?

If you are concerned about me over harvesting northern pike, you have never fished with me.

Not pretty, but honest.

[AWH]

Merk, here's a question for you that I'm hoping you will actually answer for once instead of dancing around it like every other question that people ask of you. I'll make it simple for you. Your answer will be in the form of one letter.

If you could choose either option A or option B, which would it be?

A) Our current regulations with the special regulation slot lakes

No slots on any of our lakes

All I'm looking for here is A or B, nothing more. Your answer isn't going say that you think A or B is the best solution. I'm sure you will say it's somewhere in the middle. That's not the question I'm asking. A or B are your only two choices. Which is the lesser of two evils in your opinion?

Aaron

[jeffreyd]

C, no criminal implications when you accidently throw your spear?

D, close off hook and line fishing, freeze all the lakes all year round for spearers?

[AWH]

jeffreyd, I think Merkman hacked into your account!!!

Aaron

[walleye101]

You said you could not understand why some release mortality by anglers is acceptable on slot lakes, so I provided a logical explanation.

C&R has been shown in numerous studies to result in a very small percentage of mortality for the fish released. For discussion I will use the 5% mortality example from the study you mention. Very few fish are outright killed during the act of catching and releasing them. The majority of the relatively low level of release mortality occurs post release, many hours or days after handling from stress induced complications or infections. While anglers sometimes claim "that fish is gonna die anyway" in reality we have no idea which fish will fully recover or succumb to delayed mortality.

So, to say the "one in twenty" that died was not put to "good use" is false. To avoid "wasting" the random fish that might die later all fish would need to be harvested. By releasing that fish and 19 others all had a chance to survive, grow and live to be caught another day. The result of releasing 20 isn't so much about the one that didn't make it as it is about the 19 that did. That is why C&R works.

As usual no civil reply or productive discussion, just more of the same "45 of 48" and "underwater tail pinch" jargon. No wonder these discussions go nowhere!