organization to help Northern Pike fishery

[jeffreyd]

I guess my question after reading the posts from page 5 on, is this. Why would the possession limit change in the winter compared to summer? Or does it, i have not gone to the Dnr regs page and looked but will. What if they changed the whole season, opened it for one month and that was it, any size, with a max possession? No different than deer hunting here in az, i can put in for a rifle tag for a specific place and week in the season, allowed one deer depending on the reg what sex. But now if i do not draw that deer tag, i have one month that i can bow hunt with an over the counter tag in any unit. But if you get a deer in that time limit, it goes against your points.

The best thing that could ever happen is that the groups come together and support each other. It is hard, being past president of the az deer assoc, we finally allied with the majority of the other groups to support each other but it took years. many meetings of yelling and people walking out but in the end we all support each other. We have a retired deer biologist that does our writing for us, we formed a what we call the "deer team" that is made up of scientist and member of groups that deal with the species.

With the deer team, they are the ones that give the info on the habitat, how impacts will affect the herd, and everything else you can imagine. This is what needs to happen if anyone wants the fishery to survive for the next hundreds of years.

One cannot go this alone, it is going to take cooperation of many to achieve the overall MISSION. But that mission has to be agreed to before hand and followed to the letter.

We as sportsmen and women need to get our kids involved in these decision and discussion when making plans and policy. My son is a member of the deer assoc, made a speech about opportunity to bow hunt to the game and fish commission from his view point at age 12, and knows it is a resource that can go away very quickly.

Kids are the ones we are trying to keep this around for, while we enjoy it the kids today do not know what they are missing. Growing up in the midwest, being allowed to go fishing in NE, SD, and MN each summer was something that can never be taken away from me. My son who is 14 has only experienced the enjoyment of fishing in MN one time. I want to be able to take him there anytime he wants, but if continued bickering takes place, people do not want to work together, these will only be our memories and not ones that our children have.

We have lost our youth to modern technology, when we would take a bucket, pole, and bait to a small creek and spend the day fishing, might not have caught a thing (except sunburn) we still had a blast and did it many times a month. This does not happen today, computers, gameboy, other distractions have pulled them away.

So is this issue really about grown adults acting like kids, or is it our child like natures coming out from when we could do what we wanted without much regulation?

[merkman]

The best thing that could ever happen is that the groups come together and support each other.

+1

[reinhard1]

positive, i like that. i agree let's work on that. good luck.

[esoxhunter11]

merkman,

I know you want everybody to come together before any changes are made, but we are always gonna argue about something, we just have to find some common ground. I know what I would like for regulations as I stated earlier, but I would be willing to compromise a little bit. I personally would be advocating selective harvest(keep pike under 24" and one over 40", if there gets to be an abundance of 40" move it to one over 48"). I think most fish should be selectively harvested. I have seen lakes with an abundance of small largemouth bass that have devastated a good walleye lake, but most people dont eat bass. I think IN-Fisherman got it right with selective harvest. Not all muskie lakes have restrictions but everyone who fishes them restrict themselves cause most know what a prescious fishery it is and without that passion there is no way it would be the same.

Sorry Merkman I got off subject. I want a better pike fishery in the state, but I dont want people to feel singled out. I really want to know what you think the regulation on Northern Pike fishing should be. It is important, cause maybe we could meet some common ground. I plan to take these responses to the MnDnr, to see what they think.

So in short Merkman, if the DNR asked you what the regulations should be, what would you tell them. Or any other person who likes to spear can respond.

I want everyones opinion on regulations, we got to have them or people would abuse it, so what is the best way to go.

Thanks to anyone who responds

[merkman]

I think IN-Fisherman got it right with selective harvest.

+1

The MnDNR has heard my requests.

Bring them up there again if you like; you must be new to this game.

1) Make the lower slot limit work for the fishery, darkhouse spearers, and hook and liners. Stop holding the darkhouse spearer to an impossible feat of being 100% right 100% of the time when trying to harvest small northern pike on slot limit lakes. Unintentionally kill a slot limit northern pike with a spear, face a crime do it with a hook, and keep on fishing. There are many many ways to get this done. Many good ideas have been brought up in these very forums. However, until the MnDNR and the other key players admit that there is a problem, there is no use in proposing solutions. You have heard the denials on this forum loud and clear. There have been years and years of town hall after town hall where darkhouse spearers have given their input to the MnDNR and it continually falls on deaf ears.

2) Remove the foolish darkhouse spearing bans from the 26 muskie lakes where darkhouse spearing is needlesly banned. Spearing a muskie is already illegal in all waters in Minnesota. There is no need for these redundant laws that punish law abiding darkhouse spearers. More muskies are killed though hook and release mortality via hook and liners than ever could be killed by unintentional kills via darkhouse spearing. The darkhouse spearers are banned from these lakes the hook and liners are not. These laws do nothing more than drive a huge wedge between ALL muskie guys and darkhouse spearers.

3) Save the big northern pike that die every year in winterkill lakes. Restock them in lakes that need the larger pike.

4) Increase the education and promotion of look and release and catch and release. If someone comes to you with a plan to increase the education and the funding to get it done don’t blow them off (Previous Administration).

5) Get some more darn CO’s in the field to punish the criminals so the law abiding sportsmen don’t have to bicker so darn much.

6) Leave me to heck alone, let me go sit in my windowless shack over 6 FOW and escape from the world. You guys go chase your silly panfish and walleyes. I will be right there watching natures big screen TV. And when I want to enjoy a fresh meal of Minnesota Northern Pike I'm gonna take some eaters, fillet them up and enjoy them. Many times the best things in life are the things that no one else wants. As the Harley guys say… If I have to explain, you wouldn’t understand.

Those are some of the larger requests.

Good luck!!

[foulpole18]

Merk

what length would be acceptable for the lower end of a slot. 24" 30" 40? I think I can guess your answer but please humor me.

[esoxhunter11]

+1 Merkman

Hey man thats what I am talkn about. Sometimes you just have to say what you believe is right, just lay it out there, other than trying to defend yourself over and over, little by little. I think you will have a lot more people respect your views. I believe a lot of your ideas are good.

And its not that I am new to the game I just have new ideas of playing the game.

We all want a good fishery, fish to eat and trophies to catch no matter how you catch them. Lets just do it the right way.

I dont think that the DNR doesnt listen, they just dont agree it is the right way. You need to come up with statistics, ideas for education, and science behing your reasoning. Thats what a good Organization is for. I hope we can come up with a good organization or better the ones we already have.

I wouldn't mind the darkhouse association, but I havent seen much to help the fishery on it, so that makes me feel like an outsider. I would like to see Muskies Inc. do more for the Pike fishery, but also keep selective harvest in mind, because Pike need to be treated different than muskies. Maybe there needs to be something new.

Thanks again Merkman, I will definitely keep these ideas in mind.

[Jameson]

...if the DNR asked you what the regulations should be, what would you tell them. Or any other person who likes to spear can respond.

I want everyones opinion on regulations, we got to have them or people would abuse it, so what is the best way to go.

Thanks to anyone who responds

Just some tweeks to the current laws.

1) For every acre of spearing banned water have an equal acre of angling banned water. I would hope this would get rid of any lakes with solely a spearing ban.

2) Give spear fisherman some give on slot lakes. Something like 3 inches on either side.

3) Make it one pike over 28" per day/possession.

4) Make it one 35+" pike per year/season.

5) Establish some lakes where everything but pike are C&R only. Study them.

6) Restore the winter closing date for muskie to coincide with pike. With the new 48" minimum this restriction is no longer needed.

That's all I can think of for now....

[merkman]

Oh yeah...

And stop this effin carp.

MnDNR Esox round table.

This is currently how northern pike are being represented.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/roundtable/2010/fisheries/muskie_pike.pdf

A presentation on Northern pike at the fisheries round table and I see two pics of a northern pike and text northern pike in the title. What a Joke.

But it did contain the standard Muskies Inc FEAR slide and yet more PETA tactics of a muskie with its guts sliced open.

Standard issue nowa days.

[merkman]

4) Make it one 35+" pike per year/season.

Thanks Jameson,

I forgot that one.

X number of trophy pike per year instead of 1 per day.

[cbrooks]

I like Jameson idea on the slot forgiveness. Something has to be done with the slot to make it fair for spear fisherman. I think slots are great and do help so I wouldn't want to abandon slots all together so a forgiveness scale for spearers sounds reasonable to me. I don't agree with #6 on his proposal but its a good start.

[jeffreyd]

There is one very important message from the Esox roundtable link you provided. It is on the last page and will fit for any species of fish,deer, elk, moose, or what ever you want to use it for. Rather than having that as the last page, it needs to be the mission statement for what you are asking because other than you want to be left alone in your windowless shack, this is not really only about you or the other 14,999 darkhouse spearers in MN. It is about survival of the fishery and maintaining the fishery for EVERYONE. No more No less. I bet if you asked around for assistance from co's and other MnDnr reps they would be more than willing to talk to you. But ducks need to be in a row and if you feel you are being slighted or disregarded, then your presentation will need to be adjusted. It is the only way to get things to change and we all know how the political machine likes change. Even tho i am not a resident of the state, might not agree 100% with Merks statements, i would be willing to help to support the fishery.

[foulpole18]

I like some of Jameson's ideas also. I think points 3+4 are excellent starting points. Those are ideas that I would think could be the start of some common ground.

I would like to hear more of your thoughts Jameson.

[AWH]

Merk, you've had some good thoughts. Let's not not revert back to old habits of skewing the facts. Most people already know this. But for those that don't, here is the actual long range management plan for pike and muskies. Let's not take one small snapshot that shows the efforts/progress of one small portion of the long range plan and pretend that pike are not represented in the plan as a whole.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/fisheries/plans/muskiepike_2020.pdf

Plenty about pike in here which shows how they are being represented. It's a good start. And with hard work and contributions from all interest groups we can continue to improve on what we have.

I agree that points 3 & 4 by Jameson would make for great changes to the current regulations.

Aaron

[Jameson]

....4) Make it one 35+" pike per year/season.....

This, or something like this seems to have universal support. Anyone know a biologists view? At what size would it make what changes? Would it have to be one, or would two, or three be acceptable? Than what are the DNR's enforcement views on it?

Mesh it all out, get the legislature to make it law, and poof, better pike fishery for all.

....organization....

[jeffreyd]

Jameson, if you read the plan for 2020, there is a bunch of info on growth rates, how to achieve them, and other plans to get "trophy" pike in the system. The management plan that i have been reading is pretty clear and cut, it identifies the stakeholders tho which to me puts much of these regulations from resort owners and fundraising tournament groups. There are a list of names from the work group that might be willing to answer questions etc. Just my take.

[mainbutter]

2) Give spear fisherman some give on slot lakes. Something like 3 inches on either side.

[foulpole18]

If you go the amnesty route, I would think there would have to be a limit to how many free passes you get. There can't be a slot and the let someone harvest a bunch of fish in the slot and keep saying it was an accident. I could go with 1 or 2 free passes, but after that something has to happen. Just because you can't estimate shouldn't mean you get to keep trying. If you can't estimate, after a couple of mistakes, maybe you should try a lake without slots.

Then again, how many people would acually turn themselves in. Even with amnesty, people wouldn't do it. There already aren't enough CO's to manage the regs we have.

[merkman]

aaron

thanks for your input

[merkman]

As far as "oops tags" go

You really have to look at if the darkhouse spearer should be rewarded for the unintentional kill by being able to keep the slot limit northern pike.

Currently the hook and liner is not rewarded for the unintentional kill.

While it may not be the greatest answer to throw the dead fish back in the lake it does remove any question of intent.

The sportsman does not benefit by the unintentional kill so there is no reason for them to purposely kill the fish and claim that it was an accident.

IMO What ever is agreed upon, the sportsman in either case should not be rewarded for their mistake.

But, if it is determined one method will be rewarded by being able to keep the slot limit fish then the other method should have the same opportunity. I.e. a number of "oops tags" per sportsman not per method.

I really like the trophy tag idea also, especially the data collection side of it. So many people don't understand that the darkhouse spearers (1% of the population allowed to fish in the daylight hours of a much shorter season) do not harvest more large pike than the hook and liners (99% of the population allowed to fish 24-7 most of the year). The data collected with a trophy tag system would finally put the myth that darkhouse spearers harvest more large northern pike to bed for good.

Amnesty? As long as it is based on the sportsman and not the method. The sportsman reports themselves for any dead slot limit fish no mater the method that killed it. Honestly I think it would be very hard to implement fairly.

6) Restore the winter closing date for muskie to coincide with pike.

[merkman]

esoxhunter11,

I will shoot it to you straight, If you are honest and true about wanting a new northern pike organization that wants the true backing of darkhouse spearers (Not one that is Muskies Inc DBA the new northern pike org) you have to address these two core issues that divide darkhouse spearers from the muskie folks.

1) Make the lower slot limit work for the fishery, darkhouse spearers, and hook and liners.

2) Remove the foolish darkhouse spearing bans from the 26 muskie lakes currently banned. (And do not replace these outright bans with the current implementation of slot limits that have the same disparate impact as an outright ban)

Choose to ignore those two core issues and you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

Good Luck and I hope you can make it work.

[Dan L]

When talking with bioligist from the DNR the changing of the lower end of the slot would make slots ineffective because not enough fish would make it into the slot. I like the pike slots and I don't think they should be changed. There plenty of lakes to try new slot limmits so they could be monitored.

As far as the one over 35" per year I would think most fisherman don't even catch a pike over 35 inches. I would think you would have to be more restrictive but that would have to be left to a bioligist.

I wonder how a statewide regulation of one over 30" per year with a tag along with a one over 24 or 26 inches in possesion would work. With the problems with our pike fisheries I would think it will take some regulations with some teeth.

[jeffreyd]

Merk, from the people that are listed on the draft 2020 plan are any of these folks spearers? I did note that in the recommendations, it did say to give more opportunity to darkhouse. To me reading this draft which was offically adopted in 08, the muskie folks did get more planning but note that the pike have research has been ongoing for many years. I guess i do not quite understand why the 26 lakes that have bans are so important? research that i have read in the last few days clearly shows that pike and muskie do not like each other and survive and populate waters where they are limited. So if you have a banned lake that is being managed for muskie 106 lakes, over 3500 lakes that are being managed for pike, where is the rub? Just trying to get a bit more sense of the issue that merk keeps discussing.

[Gordie]

Opps tag now thats funny all you will hear on the ice is OPPS

It will never work. I spear and I consider my self responsible

enough not to need an opps tag. I know that there are not responsible people out there be it anglers or spearfishermen all I can do is lead by exsample and hope for the best outcome.

[reinhard1]

elwood, i am not a fan of spearing, but i would defend your right to do so. reading your last post and previous posts, if every angler and spearfisherman had your ethics and attitude there would be no need for this back and forth.good luck.