CNG / LPV Conversion Kit

[MaskedMallard]

Compressed Natural Gas / Liquid Propane Vehicle Conversion Kit. After traveling the world a bit, & seeing how economical a CNG / Gasoline car is, I've started to look into this. Maybe I just haven't found the correct HSOforum, to as explain why its going to cost about $4000.00 to do a conversaion / adaptation.

From what I've seen, alot of Toyota that have the VVT-I seem to be the perfered engine of choice. What I've seen in the cars. A CNG tank, LED fuel meter / toggle switch combination. High pressure lines to / from Tank / Intake Manifold.

Things I haven't seen, that I suspect are there. A new / reprogrammend ECM. Various relays & wires.

So, the question I have. Why the expensive cost of adding the CNG system to a car?

Inconviences I can think of. Finding CNG / LP, but I figured a LP company that supplies the tanks to warehouses for forklifts could become a supplier. The other thing I've seen is a kit to attach to the Natural Gas Line coming into a persons house. I realize its only at about 2psi, but the additional kit, another few thousand dollars is a pump, to repressurize your empty tanks. The LP doesn't produce the HP, but used for daily driving / cruseing down the highway, who cares. How often are you driving at 4000+ RPMs to get max HP anyways.

Benefits, longer time between Oil Changes, less carbon build up in the engine, LP is cheaper than Gasoline.

[coombia21]

At the gas station where I work at the lp is 2 dollars a gallon more. Does it get better mileage? How do you figure it is cheaper?

[jeffreyd]

look at the other research. many cities converted to lp/cng when it was the rage. here in az they gave us up to 15k per vehicle and allowed you to drive in the HOV lanes with only one person if you converted or had a new vehicle with it. Bet you would be hard pressed today to find any fleet that is using cng/lp as it was adding more pollution to the issue than worth. city of tempe converted many vehicles and then sent them to auction. the city where i worked, we had about 15 ford f150 with it and they were horrible. the problem was that if you needed it worked on, the dealership even tho it was factory installed either would not touch them or it was too expensive to fix. the other issue was that most operators would do just gas and not ever run the cng. I think you would have to use a ton of it to ever make it pay off. good luck

[MaskedMallard]

From what I could tell, it does not get better mileage, it gets worse. It was about a 1/3 cheaper as compared to petrol at the pump. My 1/3 cheaper number was based off of overseas fuel stations.

Cars / Vans would pull up to what ever pump they needed for fuel. The van taxi's would pop the hood & fill up the tank that was located in the rear of the vehicle. The car taxi's either had to pop the trunk, or there was a filling point, opposite the tail pipe.

If I could post a link I would. If you use a search engine & look for the USAToday web link dated May 8, 2007 you'll get a good idea as to whats happening.

[MaskedMallard]

I know there were a number of cities, where their fleet vehicle were running off of CNG. I believe Honda made a Civic that was Petrol / CNG powered. I agree that the rage died off here in the states. As for Natural Gas adding more pollution, I'll have to do more research on that. I'm pretty sure Natural Gas burns cleaner than Petrol. As for converting a heavy work truck to CNG, that in my opnion is a dumb idea. As for the stealership not wanting to work on them, I've experienced that with the Merkur (Ford of Germany) I own. At the stealership, its alot of younger guys, all booked trained, with no real world experience. Find a tech, that understands concept & theory, isn't affraid to comprehend how something works,is willing to take something apart vs. just replacing parts. The stealership knew there was nowhere else to take the vehicle.

As to the original question. Why is it so Expensive to convert it? From what I can tell, its these following items. A tank (looks alot like a beer keg), wiring, fuel meter with rocker switch, & hoses.

Can anyone give me some more insight as to what happens when going back & forth from CNG to Petrol? I'm guessing the rocker switch goes to relays / ECM to change the timming (VVT-I), turns off the injector pulse, turns off the fuel pump. Turns on / opens a valve to allow for the flow of CNG.

[deadeye]

I always thought that it was more corrosive than petrol and since you loose the lubrication of the petrol you ended up with internal parts wearing out faster?

It costs so much because the manufacturer has to get a hold of each vehicle and engineer the kit to that vehicle. In reality that is a logistical nightmare. Then you have to pay to have That stuff made to the tolerences and that is why it costs so much.

It can easily be tuned on a newer vehicle considering stuff like AEM.

I just don't see why anyone would want to do it when there is much better fuel out there that is available everywhere. If you really want economy, Turbo diesel would be the way to go. A tdi golf would be your best friend if your not into the hybrid thing.

[MaskedMallard]

I'm going to have to do more digging on the Compressed Natural Gas being more Corrosive than Petrol. After all, the Driers, Hot Water Heaters, & Gas Ovens in ones homes are all run off of Natural Gas.

Gasoline is not a lubricant.

As for the cost, I'm having trouble understanding what is making the kit so expensive. From what I can judge about the kit, Its a CNG Injector going into the Intake Manifold. High Pressure Hose. Wiring. Relays / ECM. Rocker / Toggle LED Switch. Fuel Tank, like that found on Fork Lifts with a CNG set up. From what I'm reading, this is a $2000.00 to $7000.00 conversion, depending on the car.

I'd do it for Cost Reasons. IF Natural Gas coming off the grid & into someones house is something like $1.00 - $1.25 (need pump / compressor to fill your car)& Gasoline at the pumps is about $3.00 a gallon, do the math in savings. Mileage isn't as good, but I'd bet that with Natural Gas, you are getting better than 1/2 the mileage of Gasoline & thats at less than 1/2 the cost.

Diesal is sometimes on par with Gasoline for price, if not exceeding it. But, as we all know, the price of fuel always goes up.

I agree on the VW TDI's. Due to Infastructure of Diesal & the lack of Infastructure for CNG, the VW Diesals are the way to go. Plus you still get to keep your trunk space for the Golf Clubs. But, how often do we all have a full trunk?

If you get the chance, do some reading on CNG powered vehicles. Then think about the Forklifts that are used in factories that use CNG, just for thinking about prices of equipment. I'm not a forklift specialist or anything, but a $7000.00 kit on a car, is that comparable to a $7000.00 kit on a forklift. I realize its not apples to apples, but its still an internal combustion engine, with the same concept & theorys being applied.

[Macgyver55]

I've installed more than 50 propane units on fleet vehicles. We used the dual fuel set up that could switch back and forth from gas to propane. They are quite labor intensive to install. They require cutting into the vehicle wiring harness to add the "controller" for the propane unit. You'll also need to install the tank along with proper sealing and venting. Plumbing work will require high pressure lines for the propane to get it from the tank to the "converter" which will convert the liquid to vapor. The converter also needs coolant hoses plumbed to it to warm the coverter to keep it from freezing up. Then there are low pressure hoses that go to the propane "carburetor" which meters and introduces the propane into the throttle body assembly. You'll need to run wiring for the switching system (if you plan to use dual fuel).

They will get approximately 30% less mileage and result in less power output. The engines do stay amazingly clean inside though. Many of the problems we encountered (in the past) were due to incompatability between the vehicle computer and the propane computer baud rates. Also, vehicle computers are able to "learn" and tend to have problems relearning when switching between the two fuels. We quit using them after we lost the "incentives" and the requirement to do so. Availability of fueling stations is/was a problem. Just my opinion, but I personally dont believe that with the initial cost and added maintainance costs that they really panned out well financially.

Vehicles that are designed or converted to run solely on Propane or CNG are a different animal and require far less setup and dont suffer from computer incompatability either.

[MaskedMallard]

I've installed more than 50 propane units on fleet vehicles. We used the dual fuel set up that could switch back and forth from gas to propane. They are quite labor intensive to install. They require cutting into the vehicle wiring harness to add the "controller" for the propane unit. You'll also need to install the tank along with proper sealing and venting. Plumbing work will require high pressure lines for the propane to get it from the tank to the "converter" which will convert the liquid to vapor. The converter also needs coolant hoses plumbed to it to warm the coverter to keep it from freezing up. Then there are low pressure hoses that go to the propane "carburetor" which meters and introduces the propane into the throttle body assembly. You'll need to run wiring for the switching system (if you plan to use dual fuel).

They will get approximately 30% less mileage and result in less power output. The engines do stay amazingly clean inside though. Many of the problems we encountered (in the past) were due to incompatability between the vehicle computer and the propane computer baud rates. Also, vehicle computers are able to "learn" and tend to have problems relearning when switching between the two fuels. We quit using them after we lost the "incentives" and the requirement to do so. Availability of fueling stations is/was a problem. Just my opinion, but I personally dont believe that with the initial cost and added maintainance costs that they really panned out well financially.

Vehicles that are designed or converted to run solely on Propane or CNG are a different animal and require far less setup and dont suffer from computer incompatability either.

Now this is what I was looking for, I didn't realize about going from a liquid to a gas was causing freezing, due to the Venturi effect. This is good information. I wasn't thinking about this part of the physics involved.

As for the lack of power / drop in gas mileage, I'm not concerned with that. I'm looking to see how it affects the pocket book in the long run. Also, as long as I'm not driving like a Pizza Delivery Guy, I don't think I'd notice the lack of power, except when going up hills (in the Midwest, Ha, Ha) or passing someone. I've learned to downshift when passing, so I'm sure I could learn to flip a switch.

I guess if someone got creative, they could omit their A/C system & use the CNG as it went from Liquid to Vapor in the "controller". There for reduceing parasitic drag on the engine & increasing gas mileage. Just a crazy thought....

As for seeing it work out financially, I believe you are correct today. Tomorrow / 2 years when we are paying $5.00 a gallon, will be another topic.

I'm going to assume, that computer technology has advanced where this might not be a problem. Except where an aftermarket system is getting added. As for the Honda Civic GX, I'd like to see how the computer compares against a regular Civic.

[deadeye]

I still don't see the draw to cng/LP. Even if it was that cheap for fuel you are pretty much shooting yourself in the foot with the initial cost of the kit. You can get a lot of gasoline or diesel for that. Plus your not rolling around with a compressed gas combustible fuel tank in your car. (I know that 15 gallons of gasoline isn't great either but compressed gas+accident = fail, compressed highly combustible gas+accident= major fail.

I have dealt with a couple of propane forklifts and they did work great. However the only reason for even running propane was the lack of mess for refueling and ability to store fuel long term without penalty. Other than that with the price of having to get the tanks filled and having them brought out or going to get them made cost a moot point.

Cars that are initially setup for cng/lp might be the cats meow if your in a place that supports them. But if you are looking for a alternative to gasoline, diesel just has so much draw IMO. The engines last forever, mpgs are great and the network is there to support them.

[CJH]

As for the cost, I'm having trouble understanding what is making the kit so expensive. From what I can judge about the kit, Its a CNG Injector going into the Intake Manifold. High Pressure Hose. Wiring. Relays / ECM. Rocker / Toggle LED Switch. Fuel Tank, like that found on Fork Lifts with a CNG set up. From what I'm reading, this is a $2000.00 to $7000.00 conversion, depending on the car.

I'd do it for Cost Reasons. IF Natural Gas coming off the grid & into someones house is something like $1.00 - $1.25 (need pump / compressor to fill your car)& Gasoline at the pumps is about $3.00 a gallon, do the math in savings. Mileage isn't as good, but I'd bet that with Natural Gas, you are getting better than 1/2 the mileage of Gasoline & thats at less than 1/2 the cost.

Diesal is sometimes on par with Gasoline for price, if not exceeding it. But, as we all know, the price of fuel always goes up.

I agree on the VW TDI's. Due to Infastructure of Diesal & the lack of Infastructure for CNG, the VW Diesals are the way to go. Plus you still get to keep your trunk space for the Golf Clubs. But, how often do we all have a full trunk?

As mentioned, you are using specialized + high pressure parts, which always is expensive.

Not positive, but I think your assumption on the price of CNG is incorrect. Last I checked, from what I found it was $1.8/gallon vs $2.5-2.8/gallon for regular gas, Diesel is around $2.7-3/gallon. I believe the price of gas has significantly more tax built into the price, even more in Diesel. So basically the $1.8 in CNG is residential price, so not only would you have the car conversion kit, but also the home one, and your range/usability would now be somewhat limited on that vehicle.

So lets do the math:

$1.8 CNG is 36% cheaper than gas at $2.80. So you basically have a wash/slight advantage between the cheaper fuel, and the loss in fuel economy. This DOES NOT include the cost of the conversion kit for car or home. So based on todays fuel prices, you would never recoup the invest in the useful life of the vehicle.

Gas vs Diesel

$2.8 gas is about 7% cheaper than Diesel @ $3 (It would be the same price or cheaper if the taxes were equalized). Diesel usually sees an advantage in mileage of 25-30%, but carries a $1500-2000 premium over a petrol engine. So if you drive average to high miles, the Diesel is worth it. If not, don't bother and fuel is not a big expense anyway.

So, based on all of that, any of the clean diesel's are a much better real world "alternative" fuel than petrol without limiting the usability of the vehicle. If you fundamentally want to not buy oil from dictators in the middle east or you think petrol is going up to $7/gallon by Labor day (as some of the alternative fuel sites are toting - but is highly unlikely), CNG is one of the few ways to do it (even though we get our oil from Canada) as its produced here and is abundant. You could also look into a diesel engine that has been converted to run on regular diesel and bio-diesel, and has switchable fuel tanks.

[MaskedMallard]

I still don't see the draw to cng/LP. Even if it was that cheap for fuel you are pretty much shooting yourself in the foot with the initial cost of the kit. You can get a lot of gasoline or diesel for that. Plus your not rolling around with a compressed gas combustible fuel tank in your car. (I know that 15 gallons of gasoline isn't great either but compressed gas+accident = fail, compressed highly combustible gas+accident= major fail.

[MaskedMallard]

I honestly don't know what the price of Natural Gas is. I was using the numbers I got while overseas, & then looking at Internet articles where I was seeing a news article from UTAH stating something like $0.68 a gallon, & California saying something like $0.98 a gallon, as delivered off the grid to someones home. Not to be confused with Natural Gas trucked to someones house, fill a tank & then tap the tank to fill the smaller tank.

As for range / usability, a dual fuel vehicle would be ideal. The Gasoline / CNG combination. (I see I should have came up with a better title to this thread). Most of one's driving during the work week & most weekends is done fairly close to ones home, where I feel the dual fuel idea is great. As for travel, fill the CNG tank the day before travel. Drive the 200 miles plus range you can get on a typical CAR CNG tank & then switch over to gasoline.

As for the under the $3.00 a gallon of gasoline, that price is not going to last forever. Back in ~ 1996 Gasoline was right around a $1.00 a gallon in the Twin City Metro Area. Gasoline in 2007 was about $3.00+ a gallon.

I really hope that crazy forecast of $7.00 a gallon by Labor Day is wrong. I'd hate to see how the price of everything else would be affected, for shipping it to stores.

As for the Bio-diesal, I've seen the TV shows, & then news articles. Again, the infastructure isn't there. I just seeing it being alot eaiser to have a pump / compressor tapped into the grid & use off that, for a CNG vehicle.

[Jeremy airjer W]

For the amount of money you'll spend on getting a car set up you could build your own still and convert your car to run on straight alcohol. The permits are free, and you get subsidies for making your own fuel.

[zamboni]

I was a Schwans man, and 99.9% of Schwans trucks are LP. Couple things I noticed-

Power wasn't all that great, really struggled up hills.

I ran out of LP one day, no dash gauge, just a gauge on the bottle. Running out stunk- can't grab a can like you do gas and dump some in to get you to a station, I had to be towed into the depot to get filled.

With cost of conversion, I wouldn't think you would come out too far ahead, if at all

[jeffreyd]

here is a link on the emission issues.

California study suggests CNG emissions more toxic than diesel systems

http://bulktransporter.com/news/transportation_california_study_suggests/

[CJH]

As for the under the $3.00 a gallon of gasoline, that price is not going to last forever. Back in ~ 1996 Gasoline was right around a $1.00 a gallon in the Twin City Metro Area. Gasoline in 2007 was about $3.00+ a gallon.

I really hope that crazy forecast of $7.00 a gallon by Labor Day is wrong. I'd hate to see how the price of everything else would be affected, for shipping it to stores.

As for the Bio-diesal, I've seen the TV shows, & then news articles. Again, the infastructure isn't there. I just seeing it being alot eaiser to have a pump / compressor tapped into the grid & use off that, for a CNG vehicle.

You're right, it won't stay at $3 for every, nothing ever stays the same forever, I still don't think you are pricing the CNG correctly. Gas will stay where it is until the economy picks up, and the price of CNG will go up then as well. And surprisingly to most people, the price of gas has been fairly stable when adjusted for inflation:

http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Gasoline_inflation_chart.htm

If we hit $7 gas, the economy would tank worse than it has, and the price would drop again as demand disappeared.

[zamboni]

Gas could swing the other way and drop, happened last year. You never know.