MN bluebill thoughts

[life=outdoors92]

question for any of u that enjoy huntin bluebills. i hunt in northern itasca county. just filled to the max with lakes. its not even funny. so like in the golden days, you could see black skies of them, even up to about 15 years ago, i would even say 10, u could just see a ton of them. i would like to see those numbers again, hopefully as strong as the ringneck population, which is really high up there.

what are some ideas for gettin more bills back in the hunt? i 1).for one, i would consider closing the season for a year. i know its impossible to ID a bill from a ringneck in flight, and yes some would be accidently shot. but u know what, i don't think we can afford to shoot anymore of them then we are, cause they keep dropping

2). perhaps making a a nation wide ban on them? cause you know what, when these things get down south, theres nothin minnesota can do anymore

3). is hunting even a problem for them, or is it habitat

[MN Greenheads]

Go to Devil's Lake ND they are all there. It is like 1975 on the N end of Leech.

The Bluebill population is down for unknown reasons but it's reasonable to believe hunting isn't one of them as Bluebills have a low total harvest rate compared to there total population. Ideas of what is causing the population decline are:

Global warming causing ponds that the birds stop at on there spring migration to not winterkill the fish in them. This results in less invertabretes for the hens which gives them weaker and fewer eggs. This ends up resulting in fewer birds being hatched.

other ideas are:

High Selenium levels in the birds

Low invertabrate levels in Minnesota due to higher water levels in potholes and poor levels on Lakes.

Lower Clam and Mussel populations on the Mississippi and Gulf Coast.

Bait farming on potholes and small lakes competing for food with Bluebills.

[Scott M]

Check out this nice article featuring Dr. Al Afton. Before re-entering academia he was a MN DNR waterfowl biologist. His research has mainly been examining the spring condition hypothesis.

I had a chance last year in March to assist Dr. Afton with banding some birds. I also got to do a one on one interview with him. The thing that stuck with me was him repeating a couple of times that bluebills are like the 3rd or 4th most abundant duck in North America and that limiting harvest wouldn't do anything for the population. He was critical of Minnesota's decreased bag. He told me that the overwhelming majority of biologists aren't in favor of decreased seasons or bags (in their view hunting is a form of compensatory mortality and never reaches the point of additive mortality), but that some states do them to sooth public sentiment.

His research continues. While bluebills won't go the way of the dodo bird, they also aren't likely to return to the Minnesota good old days of the 60's to 80's. I try to get my wife's grandfather to wax nostalgic once a year...he tells stories from North Dakota and Minnesota of bluebills blackening the sky. At this point I can only imagine.

[RumRiverRat]

I would disagree that a Bluebill and Ringneck cannot be identified in flight.

[NR]

After following all the publicly available information - newspaper and magazine articles, etc, it seems like the biggest problem with production stems from bills returning to the breeding grounds in poor physical condition - not having the food resources on the way north resulting in not having the time/energy to breed successfully. The open water season where bluebills breed is very short.

In terms of hunting, I would believe that a lot of them are migrating through the dakotas instead of MN. Boat traffic on MN staging lakes certainly doesn't help.

NR

[magnum mike]

Life=outdoors92 has a good point about duck ID in flight. I have been duck hunting for over 30 years and I can’t always tell the difference between a scaup and a ringneck in flight. If a bunch of “bills” hit the slot at legal open shooting hours and there are hens or immature ducks in the flock, I don’t believe anyone can say with certainty what species they are. If they are “bills” we immediately pick them up and confirm so we do not violate the scaup limits. There have always been hunters that profess they can always tell what ducks are in the decoys. I have my doubts.

[Quackaddict9]

I would disagree that a Bluebill and Ringneck cannot be identified in flight.

x2

[life=outdoors92]

i didn't necessarily mean all the time. but when the best shooting occurs (early morning and especially cloudy) everyone that i have hunted with can't tell the difference. even my great-uncles who have hunted bills since the 1940s (almost every year too) can't do it. i have even shot a double at a flock of bills, and one of them happened to be a male ring neck in it. idk about you, but when i shoot bills, its mostly pass shooting over decoys, not belly to me flares

[Ballyhoo]

I have hunted LOW for 25+ years, not as heavily as some do but always hunted every year. The numbers are down right pitiful compared to when I was a kid. There were always years when they went farther east towards Morson but the last few years there just has not been any birds.

[Gordie]

I havent heard much from the winni area as how the BB did eating the snails this year I knoe last year they found abunch of them dead supposatly to a parisite that was in the snails they eat.

divers are my favorite of all the waterfowl then it would be teal fast and faster.

I love to watch the BB and ringies work the decoy spread

It is really hard if not impossible to tell the difference between the two when they are screaming past your decoys on the first pass or for that matter on the second pass

[magnum mike]

My duck camp is 15 minutes from Winnie and it was terrible this year. There was some die off on the west shore but nothing like the last couple years. We got a little shooting on 3rd River this season but not much. There wasn't much for shooting on the potholes just west of the big pond either. We didn't see much for ducks all season on the flowage.

[LandDr]

Just gotta chime in...

The people that have seen lower numbers of divers this past year or so, have you seen any change in the water levels, water clarity or even fish populations?

Reason I ask is that diver use on a water body is closely related to food sources. I work with people every year on restoring food sources into "dead" water. It is no different than putting a 5 ac. food plot in 160 acres of CRP grass...you will automatically see more pheasants and deer on the CRP when you implement the food source.

Elwood...divers are my favorite also! I hunted a lake this year where the water levels were down and the water clarity up...this resulted in a boom in the freshwater shrimp, sago and cerely. Most days there were 5,000 divers on this lake but there where a few days where there were up to 10 to 15 thousand divers. Amazing to observe.

I gave a presentation at the annual meeting for the Duck and Goose Callers and MWA at Cabela's in Rogers, MN a few weeks back. John Molkenbur, previous president of the Duck and Goose Callers, stated that he has seen a lot of presentations and a lot of ideas about how to fix the duck issue, but he has never seen such good ideas as the ones I presented. I thanked John for those comments...but expressed that we need to get started.

I have personally restored wild rice on a 15 ac. pond in one of my farms and restored Sago in a 10 ac. pond on another farm. The duck hunting is fantastic and I always have an opportunity to shoot at a limit of ducks...actually hitting them is the challenge!

I know there are other issues as well, but these are just the things that we can do as landowners or renters/users of land to help do our small part in fixing the problem.

Fish On!

[CANOPY SAM]

As to duck ID in flight - some people have better eyesight than others, but in low light it can be tough for anyone.

Landdr, can you point us in the direction of the restoration information you speak of. It sounds like you're having real success with wetland restoration. I'll bet a lot of folks would like to know what you're doing.

[Gordie]

Kyle I hope that more people lean towards your Ideas of water restoration I know that the Freshwater shrimp is one of the favorite food source of those much sought after divers. I hope to talk with more on this sometime.

great stuff your doing.

[LandDr]

People always ask me "what is the best food source for ducks?" There is really not a "best" but rather "what will work for your property/water".

There are two approaches and questions that I ask when talking with people about waterfowl enhancement...

1. Open water

2. Upland

Open Water...

1. Shallower than 36 inches...Sago and/or wild rice

a. Mucky bottom - Wild Rice but Sago is worth a try also

b. Medium to mucky bottom - Sago

2. Deeper than 36 inches...Celery and/or freshwater shrimp

* Keep in mind that you can have both of these depths in a water body and you can plan accordingly to each area.

* Wild Rice does not require flowing water...that is a myth.

Upland...

1. Depressional with drainage (Tile or ditch)

a. Tile - install riser, control structure or plug in the fall after harvest. Best to leave some standing crop, second best is leave area untilled, last is tilled as that leaves the least food on the surface.

b. Ditch - berm with control structure and plug in the fall after harvest. Best to leave some standing crop, second best is leave area untilled, last is tilled as that leaves the least food on the surface.

* Water can be artificially pumped into the area to assure flooding to create "sheet water". A shallow pump is often easy to set up for this.

2. Depresional without drainage

a. Water can be artificially pumped into the area to assure flooding to create "sheet water". A shallow pump is often easy to set up for this. Best to leave some standing crop, second best is leave area untilled, last is tilled as that leaves the least food on the surface.

3. Low slope field (1 to 2 percent prefered)

a. Create a berm along the down slope side of the field or area to be flooded. This can be done with heavy equipment (dozer) or a moldboard plow. In the lowest outlet elevation, leave an outlet for draining the entire area to allow planting of late spring or early summer crops. Install an over-flow control structure that allows blocking the flow of water and holding it back to create sheet water in the desire area and at the desired elevation. Perform tillage and planting in late spring or early summer of cereal grains and/or corn. (I design landing areas and hunter concealment areas). Plant crops and maintain until maturity. Approximately 2 weeks prior to the duck opener, manage control structure to hold back sheet water. You can depend on Mother Nature to provide the flooding but it is always better to work with a diversion to funnel water into your area or install a shallow water pump.

By far the most effective means of attracting waterfowl is with the flooded crops. But not every property has the ideal spot to create this...many do however and you just need the eye to pick that spot out and design it. (I have that eye and it is really fun seeing it develop and the results!) Working with open water is always the most difficult and results are not gauranteed due to the many variables. However, if you can get wild rice, sago, celery or shrimp to take, then you will have a lot of ducks visiting your water!

I personally feel most of our water in Minnesota is "dead". I have a seminar called "Why do all the ducks go to that one pond" which covers this and what can be done. Some ponds have these food resources and the ducks go to that pond...no different than pheasants/deer going to that one property with all the food plots or crops.

I personally feel we can create our flyway again...but it will take a coordinated effort. One of my ideas is to set up a program coordinated by the local waterfowl groups to work with landowners (farmers and non-farmers) to plug drain tiles in the fall after harvest. Landowners could be paid for crops left standing in these areas not much different than local pheasant and deer groups paying landowners to leave corn food plots. These plugged drain tiles would catch fall rains and create "sheet water" all over from Canada to Iowa. Once it gets a little freezing or the migration has gone thru, then these groups or landowners would remove the tile plugs...which would then let the tiles drain the depressional areas again without any negative issues to farming since these areas would drain just as they would prior to plugging the tile. Farmers may actually see an decrease in weed issues in these flooded areas due to the prolonger flooding. Additional benefits, besides drawing hundreds of thousands of ducks down thru Minnesota, would be the flood retention benefits during heavy fall rains and sediment retention at the same time. The environmental benefits alone are well worth this program...but we like ducks as well. Waterfowl would also have tremendous food sources on the way down the flyway which would also greatly increase body weights and reduce stress...resulting in less mortality.

A thought on Permenant Easements (CREP, RIM, WRP, etc.)...each year there are hundreds of acres of wetlands restored under permanent easements across in Minnesota. Millions of dollars are spend on planting the native prairie around the restored wetlands, tens of thousands of dollars are spent on restoring the wetlands with berms and plugs...but nothing is spent in the water itself! When these new wetlands are restored, it is the optimum time to get beneficial plants such as sago, celery and wild rice planted. There is less competiton from other aquatic plants and the more beneficial plants might get a foot hold. It is much harder to get them established once the other plants such as coontail, milfoil and cattails are established. Also, once the water is restored, that is a great time to get some shrimp stocked. I think we are really missing the boat on this one and I have expressed it to many people for many years without any change. We need to take advantage of this opportunity to get the "good stuff" in these wetlands.

I would like to ochestrate this program...but I need the funding first. Always comes down to that doesn't it. I really don't think it would cost nearly as much as is being spent on other things and there would be a huge bang for the buck. Just have to get started.

I have been to the east coast, west coast and down deep into the south working on waterfowl projects. All the places that I have been...Minnesota has the best landscape for this type of management, but it has been like pulling teeth to get people motivated. You can get 1,500 people to a duck ralley in St. Paul, but we can't get people to think about waterfowl management on their own property. ??

Hopefully this will give you some things to think about. Again, I know there are many other issues and restoring wetlands are important...but in the mean time, these options can make a huge difference.

Fish On!

[rakes2002]

This is a good topic guys! I think alot of the ducks have shifted their migration to the Dakota's. If I were a duck, that is where I would be! They have FOOD every where out there. Less pressure from hunters overall and way less boat traffic in the fall.

The key to having large concentrations of any duck is food. I like what Landdr said. We duck hunters and conservationist need to work together to improve duck habitat. I have personaly been involved in helping the restoration of several shallow wetlands in Southern MN. It's not always setting aside more land, but makeing the land we have more productive.

One thing that really irritates me is: Minnesota Lake, south of Mankato near the town of Minnesota Lake. I'm sure some of you are familar with it. In the late 90's the dnr put a new control structure in the lake and also put a public access on the North side of the lake. They drew the lake down; so 300+ feet of lake bed was exposed throughout the whole summer, fall and next fall. The sago pond weed was every where, as were the ducks and geese. Hunting was great.

Since then, the ducks have vanished. Sure there are still ducks on the lake, but not near the levels during the draw down. Well it has been 10+ years and the lake is in bad shape again. I've tried to talk to the dnr, but they say it is fine and that people need to be able to get their boats out there to hunt!! Give me a break!! The DNR spent all this money on a new control structure and they are not evening utilizing it. This is where we duck hunters can make a difference. If you have a shallow lake in your area that needs help, let them know and stay on them. I need more help with Minn. Lake. Too many guys want easy hunting and are afraid of loosing there hunting spot for a year or two due to a draw-down.

If anyone who reads this; hunts Minn. Lake, please contact the dnr and tell them it is time for a draw down.

They are currently drawing down Buffalo lake near Janesville and last spring they put retone in Mott Lake near Waldorf. With the carp gone, the water clear, and food, the ducks came. There were 5,000+ ducks on the lake before the youth day last fall. I can't wait to see how many ducks stop by Mott this spring. Should be alot of Bills on it and hopefully they will be able to fill their bellies for the migration north.

[MN Greenheads]

AMEN, Rakes 2002. Drawdowns work!!!! Look at Swan and Rice down by Winnebago all had 3+ ducks per hunter in the bag average on opener after drawdowns took place. The normal take was 1-1.5 ducks per hunter on opener. The DNR has one problem concerning drawdowns and that is if the Lake isn't a designated "Wildlife Lake" all of the shoreline owners have to approve the drawdown. It's a tough obstacale for them to overcome as there is always a few nn people on most lakes.

[123fish]

Mn Greenheads that has been changed to 75% of all surrounding landowners. Still a huge obstacle to overcome though.

[LandDr]

Working with "big water" and "big watersheds" that impact water bodies is always a challenge with often huge obstacles. The work still needs to be done...but for the regular person or landowner, it is too much to get involved in or to make a difference.

The big difference that anyone can make is on the small water and fields. If we got every duck hunter to "adopt" a project of either getting food into one, two or three ponds or implementing the "flooded fields" options on one, two or three spots...the results would be staggering. If the 200 to 300 people that attend a duck banquet each year would "adopt" one, two or three projects in their county, that would result in 200 to 900 duck friendly projects PER COUNTY!

Sure, we need to keep pressure on the DNR, USFW and Legislators...but complaining about them not doing something or doing their job doesn't result in much. We need to take this to the grass roots and activate the duck hunters....let's take it into our own hands and get it done. Working on "big water" and "big watersheds" are out of reach for most of us and it often takes years of work and coordinating to accomplish something being done on those types of projects. BUT...small water and fields we can start planning for NOW!...DucksNOW!

To get this started, I will volunteer my services to review anyone's aerial photos for some ideas. Post your Township, Range and Section Number and I will pull up your aerial photo with a soils overlay. From that we can identify some ponds for aquatic enhancement and some fields for upland options. Then...let's get DucksNOW! I have enhanced my ponds with wild rice, sago and shrimp and have great duck hunting. Sometimes I just set my gun down and watch all the ducks flying around...it is a good feeling. I wish I had an upland option on my farms but due to the sandy soil, I can't flood any fields...I would if I could!

Fish On!

[goblueM]

that's the challenge of draw downs - there are a LOT more recreational boaters and lakeshore homeowners than duckhunters

the DNR faces competing viewpoints and opinions every day... its a wonder anything productive ever gets done

[rakes2002]

Just got done talking with dnr about Minn. Lake. They are going to do another draw-down in the near future. Very busy right now with some new projects, but they understand it needs to be done and it should happen.

[Gordie]

I personally feel we can create our flyway again...but it will take a coordinated effort. One of my ideas is to set up a program coordinated by the local waterfowl groups to work with landowners (farmers and non-farmers) to plug drain tiles in the fall after harvest. Landowners could be paid for crops left standing in these areas not much different than local pheasant and deer groups paying landowners to leave corn food plots. These plugged drain tiles would catch fall rains and create "sheet water" all over from Canada to Iowa. Once it gets a little freezing or the migration has gone thru, then these groups or landowners would remove the tile plugs...which would then let the tiles drain the depressional areas again without any negative issues to farming since these areas would drain just as they would prior to plugging the tile. Farmers may actually see an decrease in weed issues in these flooded areas due to the prolonger flooding. Additional benefits, besides drawing hundreds of thousands of ducks down thru Minnesota, would be the flood retention benefits during heavy fall rains and sediment retention at the same time. The environmental benefits alone are well worth this program...but we like ducks as well. Waterfowl would also have tremendous food sources on the way down the flyway which would also greatly increase body weights and reduce stress...resulting in less mortality.

This is a great Idea and I will be talking with some friends that are farmers to see what they think about it.

some really good stuff there Landdr

One other question for you about wild rice. I have a bunch of wild rice and how long will it keep before planting(seeding) or is it to late already? I got it in september and it is stored in 5 gallon buckets with lids.

[life=outdoors92]

where i hunt ducks, is on a small bay secluded off from the bigger lake by a small creek. and it has a real good, healthy wild rice population that follows the shoreline, especially in one spot. its just matted with it there in a big bulge. theres plenty of open water that gets to maybe 15 feet.

so, whenever we pull into the yard (our cabin is on that bay) and if its the middle to late in the day, u can look out and you can always see a great amount of ducks (mallards, bills, ring necks) sitting in it or around it. its a sight to see and hear when u close the car doors and they all take off.

wild rice lasts late into the season which is nice too. its thick in the one bulge that we can sit in it till almost end of october without a problem. we just put a string of bill decoys along the rice edge with some mallards too.

wild rice=lots of ducks

[NR]

One other question for you about wild rice. I have a bunch of wild rice and how long will it keep before planting(seeding) or is it to late already? I got it in september and it is stored in 5 gallon buckets with lids.

Did you go straight from harvesting it to sealing it in 5gal pails? If so, I would think you'd have a rotten, moldy mess by now. I don't know all the details, but I know you can hold it over the winter and seed it in the spring if you dry it to some extent. I've read the best way to seed it is to go straight from harvesting it to seeding it within a day or two.

NR

[Gordie]

It has been dried and it is not moldy, guess I will seed it and if it goes it goes if it dont then I will do it all over again next season