northerns in trout streams

[troutman]

I know this topic has been addressed before but,I don't think a conclusion or a remedy was reached.I fished the Vermillion river yesterday,9/15.I caught only one trout,it was my personal biggest to date,a 26 inch,big fat girl.In the past,I have seen many trout on this particular stretch.Yeterday,I saw 4,including the one I caught.Given the bluebird skies I fished under all morning,this could be the reason for the trout no-shows.However,I also caught 2 northerns.Now,normally I don't mind catching nor's but,they have no place on a trout stream,in my opinion.Does the DNR have any plans to attempt some type of removal?When we catch them,should we be feeding the local coyote/egret/anything that will eat them population ,if you know what I mean?I very reluctantly released both these fish.I think it's a very safe bet that they are the reason you don't see any small trout in these waters...that's my opinion.Any more insight or knowledge on this subject would be appreciated.Mike

[Jim W]

First off, congrats on the big trout! That is a mammoth stream brown!!!!!! I hope you have pictures to share?

Wanton waste is illegal. However, you have the option of taking them home for table fare?

Keep the rods benndin'!!!

Jim W

[troutman]

Thanks Jim.Sorry,(boy,am I!)no camera...no pictures.Had a tape so,I taped her and let her go.I am aware of the regs.so,it probably was a stupid question on a public forum.Table fare?I'm not a big fish eater,I'd rather C&R but,it certainly is an option.My thinking is that this is impacting the trout population on this stream in a negative way and I'm curious what the DNR's take is on it.Is it pretty much live and let live?Are nors common in the upper Vermillion and have their populations increased or decreased as the river has become more suitible trout habitat?Mike

[troutman]

I finished off the trout season,monday,on the Vermillion river.I fished a section of river that has produced several 18" plus fish in a day for me in the past.I caught 1 northern,about 4#,I saw no trout.I repeat,I saw no trout.Even on my worst day,I can usually get a trout interested enough in my offerings to take a swipe at it.After what I saw on monday,I'm thinking they're no longer there.Any thoughts...anyone.Mike

[uffdapete]

Troutman - I was out a week ago on what has been a good stretch in the fall.
Last Tues - 2 browns between 2 of us in a full day of fishing. The levels were lower than we'd ever seen so I don't know if that is the explanation or not.
There was a report of someone doing well some distance above where we were.

[Flash King]

In beautiful Maine(Home of the Eastern Brook Trout)we have been fighting a losing battle with the "illegal" introduction of Nothern Pike and Smallmouth Bass into natural wilderness ponds and lakes.1st it was PIKE into the Belgrade Lakes,once known for it's landlock salmon and brook trout;now it's a primarily pike fishery.Now it's Bass in the remote ponds and rivers of western Maine - next it will be the Allagash Wilderness Area.
I like to catch Pike and Bass,but also trout;
yet some people belive that if the fish they like to catch isn,t in the body of water they are fishing they have the right to put it there.Can pike exist with trout? take a look at http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/46/950/ssMain.asp?fmt=&0ss=N1b1146950&sid=0&v=28
Sorry about the rant but these so-called fishermen Do Not Have A Clue!

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[troutman]

That's a cool pic but,the implications are not good.I'm not a fisheries biologist but,I can't imagine pike and trout co-existing in the same stream and still maintain a quality trout fishery.My feeling is that the nors should be targeted for removal.Perhaps the DNR can net them as they are preparing to spawn.I would think the potential pike spawning spots would be fairly limited on the upper Vermillion,there by concentrating them in predictable places?I'd also like to see some special regs allowing fisherman to dispose of the nors they catch...a practice that I don't swallow easily but,you can't have your trout stream and northerns too.Just my 2 cents.Mike

[Duffman]

Troutman.....
I'm sure dem Notherns have been in the Vermillion since the beginning. And I don't think the DNR would be willing to give special regs for getting rid of the northerns. Cause it would not be possible to get rid of them completly, being a river, there are many ways for the notherns to replace the ones that have been removed. See if any of your friends or neighbors want any fresh pike, remove what you can from your favorite pools, even if you just use them for garden fertilizer. Just don't throw em up on the bank.

[chunkytrout]

Troutman, ever tried pickled pike? MMMMMMM! Batch after batch after batch. Give em to your friends! They'll love it! I aint kiddin'.

chunkytrout

[troutman]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.I hope I'm not giving the impression that I don't like pike.I love pike...but not in a trout stream.I remember reading somewhere that,a very long time ago,the Vermillion was a premier brook trout stream.I doubt that pike inhabited those waters then.As civilization,development and agricultural practices took their toll and degraded the river,it became more hospitable to warmer water fish...like pike.The history part of the river is true,the rest is speculation on my part.Now,if any of this b.s.that I'm throwing around is true then,is it not possible that as the Vermillion regresses back more toward it's original self,that it will become less hospitable for pike and more so for trout?Any thoughts?Mike

[chunkytrout]

True that particular chunk of habitat has changed drastically and I believe your assumption is true. But if the water is warmer now and the predator was removed, imagine what would take it's place. Get my drift? I aint much of a stream fisherman and I hear your concerns. Habitat is definetly the key here.

chunk

[This message has been edited by chunkytrout (edited 10-03-2003).]

[troutman72]

arnt pike able to live in any waters warm or cold? dont they live right next to the arctic circle? and arnt they native? unlike brown trout who came from over seas. i could understand the argument if you were talking native brookies but none native fish are just that.

troutman72

CPR

[chunkytrout]

Good point T72. Again we approach the hairy subject of management. See the BW forum re:coasters, lakers, kings and such. Be interesting to hear you boys slant on it.

chunk

[rushing]

I think you tend to find northerns in marginal trout waters. Meaning water thats starts to warm up just enough where you start to find more cool water species and more bait fish. Those same waters are also where you can often find some very large Browns. Thats not to say northerns can't live in colder water I just think they are more of a cool water species like smallmouths. If they really liked the cold stuff I would think you would find northerns in alot more of the SE MN streams. There are some trout ponds around here that have some northerns in them, carp too and they do well but they only got there due to the ponds being flooded by the MN river and when I catch them I let them go in the outlet stream below the ponds. I have also found northerns in a small trout stream around here that flows into the MN River but again I think its because its marginal trout water and they probably got there due to flooding.
Those northerns in the trout ponds are sure fat! I sure they eat quite a few trout.

Rob

[MedicineMan]

The smaller northern are the ones that inhabit warmer water areas. Larger northerns, northerns that are larger than 8 pounds, inhabit cold water. The large northerns prefer water cooler than 60 degrees. And I'm sure that northerns have inhabited trout streams since the beggining.

[troutman]

What argument?I'm looking for some feedback from people who are knowledgeable on the future of the Vermillion.I'm not looking for an arguement on native vs. non-native...we're a couple of hundred years late on that one as far as the Vermillion goes.I have fished the lower Vermillion for many years but,I've only had the pleasure of trout fishing the upper,for a couple of years.I know that the DNR has designated parts of the river a trout stream.I've also heard that several different organizations are taking steps to continue to improve the Vermillion and it's watershed.Beyond that and what I've read from others here or observed firsthand,I know very little about the Vermillion.The picture I've gotten so far is of a river that once held brookies in it's pristine state,to a river that has endured many years of abuse and habitat degradation and now,an attempt to return the river somewhat closer to it's original state.Now,if that is an accurate picture,then one could assume that,the water has cooled some already from habitat improvements and perhaps will cool even more.Rob is correct in what he said about pike,they inhabit minimal trout water.So,if the Vermillion becomes better trout water or,less "minimal"will we see a decrease in the pike population?Maybe...if the water would get cold enough.As adaptable as pike are,I don't think they can complete their entire life cycle in a cold water stream.Otherwise,as Rob said,you'd find them in more trout streams.Again,just my 2 cents and sorry to ramble on.Mike