Ivory Lab female

[LABS4ME]

Buckblaster...I'd consider that to be clean lines, I really like to see both parents, all four grandparents and if possible all the great grandparents. In your situation I'd say the odds are very low of dyspalsia being passed through the one dog not OFA'd if the preceeding three generations are clear. While I'm not the tell all expert (though I like to think I am sometimes, just ask my wife )what you're posting looks very very good! Whenever I have questions on genetics I rely on Dr. Fran Smith. She is probably one of the most knowledgeable lab breeders in the country. She is also on the board of OFA, and the only small animal reproduction specialist in the state. She works out of Burnsville if you ever need to any breeding work or OFA work done. When she evaluates your dog 9 times out of ten it will come back from the OFA with the same designation as she gave at her office. Hope all is well...did you place your last pup?

Good Luck! Ken

[Ruttin' Buck]

Actually Ken, I have 3 pups left, all males, 1 choc and 2 blacks. Just ran them in the Star Tribune for this weekend. I hate to see them around after 7 weeks...you know the trainer general rule, 49 days.

All in all not the best time of year to sell pups, although they'd be perfect for next year's season at 10 months. I'm going to decide in the next week if I'll train 1 or 2 out and sell them trained this Spring, or maybe open up a special wintertime price for FM'ers only!

[LABS4ME]

I've had pups that I've had deposits on and the "new owners" fell through at time of pick-up. If these pups aren't sold right away, I'll start their training and sell them at around 16 weeks. I've done this a few times, and the new owners jusy love it...a house trained pup with all the basic obedience well on it's way and a good start a "fun" retrieves. Only problem is the kids really fall in love with them and they want to keep em' around. I keep thinking it'll get easier on the kids with each litter, but they never really want to let them go! My 19 year old daughter is the worse and my 6 year old son is the best at seeing them off...go figure. But boy do they help in sociallizing them! I know what you mean about selling winter pups, but you're right they'll be hunting this fall. Good luck with the boys! I hope they all find a home that'll provide them with plenty of tired nights in Oct, Nov, & Dec!

Ken

[Ruttin' Buck]

That's a great idea Ken. Any problems between siblings as they get older? I'd kennel them together and obviously train them individually. One thing I wanted to ask...do you name them? Or do you just praise them with 'good boy' until they're sold?

[LABS4ME]

Sorry for the delay in reply...had to catch a few Red Lake slabs!!!!

Generally I seperate them in crates, especially if there seems to be a hierarchy starting. Don't want to have the issues of dominence / submissive perosnalities starting. They still get plenty of play time together though, if I have more than one. Training is always done individually.

I always name them, and for the most part the new owners keep the name. I just found out last week that a pup I'd sold from my last litter that I named, had his name switched when I sold him at 14 weeks. The new owners said he picked up on it amazingly well. They had a name already in mind when they were looking for a pup, so Hobo became Drake. They really liked the fact that he was potty trained and had a good grasp of his obedience commands, it helped in the transition to his new home (with an 11 year old black male) better than they imagined. If you have the time to do this, it seems to be a good way to offer another option to potetntial buyers. I never really get "more" money for them after you add up the additional shots, food, training etc. but you'll cover your expenses (I figure I get about $200 +/- more for a 16 week old) and the additional experience of working with a pup.

Good Luck!

Ken

[RandyFish]

God did his most perfect work in creating the Labrador. It is hard working, easy to train and care for, and cheerful. It is affordable for average sportsman.

It also comes in three colors. Not four.

White or Ivory Labs will only hurt the breed over time. As someone already noted, there are 3 recognized colors. "White Labs" are simply pale yellows.

As breeders respond to the profit in this market, they will breed for coat only. Hunting ability and soundness will fall away.

I don't mean to dis the gentleman who started this thread. I understand wanting a different type of dog (heck, I own a pointing Griffon now!), and I am sure his pup will turn out great.

It is just that I hate to see slipshod breeding, particularly into a creature as blessed as the Lab...and it is bound to happen. Ask fans of hunting with goldens, Irish Setters and (to a lesser extent) springers, good hunters can be hard to find.

Anyway, that's my rant.

[Kodiak]

"It also comes in three colors. Not four."

yeah i have heard that about 20 times already, please step off your soapbox.

[duckbuster]

Kodiak: Hey on page 2 of this thread I left you a web site to check out. I'm wondering if you did or did you call these people? Curious to know what your thoughts were on the site.

[Kodiak]

Duckbuster-

Was that the AAA HSOforum? that was a good HSOforum!! how do they get those labs from california, that is where they are located right? I was looking for something local, but this place has real good looking dogs!

Kodiak

[Kodiak]

Thanks to all the guys that have gave me some information about the lighter colored labs...i just wish all the self proclaimed experts would stop hammering people that desire this color of lab and keep saying there is no ivory breed...i think you got your point across the first time. Again thanks to the guys that helped me out!!

[duckbuster]

KODIAK: They ship them via the air. If you ever decide to have one ship this way do everything in your power to get the puppy on a direct flight!!! We have had several dogs come to us this way and only one time have we had a problem. That poor little thing went all over the US. This is why I would stress the direct flight.
Losing your luggage when traveling is one thing, losing your puppy is a TOTALLY heartaching thing!!

What did you think of what they had to offer?

[Benny]

Some history on the Labrador Retrievers.

It is thought that the European fisherman brought the first labs over to ST. Johns area of Newfoundland some time in the early 1600's, there was only one color that was known to exist at that time and it was the Black Retrievers.There are some tails of the other two colors, but nothing was documented.

They were origianaly called the ST.Johns Retriever.
The fisherman used them to retrieve fish that fell out of nets,gather in the nets(must be where the retrievers got thier tug of war instincts ), to haul firewood,retrieve upland birds,and to protect thier property.

The second Earl of Malmsbury and his familly were instramental in development of the breed and gaurded against cross-breading up till the early 1900's.
His son the third Earl of Malmsbury is the one acredeited with renaming the bread the Labrador Retriever in the mid 1800's.

It was some time in the early 1900's that the Yellow lab showed up shortly after the AKC was formed and the first Black lab was regestered in 1917.The populat belief is that there has always been the three colors, just not until the bread was introdused to the Americans was the Yellow and then the Chocolate bread to produce more of the sought after colors.

Early market gunners prefered the Yellow labs as they blended in with the sparse cover out in open water.

The Chocolate labs only recently were accepted as a true color variation, and most purist will claim they are just off colored blacks.

So in my opinion, it really doesn't matter at all if they are Black,Yellow,Chocolate ,Ivory or reds.They are all smart dogs and just need a good loving invornment to nurture the talent out of them.No one color is smarter or dumber than the other, just dumb trainers who think they are gods gift to the bread!!!

Benny

[Kodiak]

That is one thing i was hesitant on was getting a puppy shipped, that just seems soo bad. but i am still looking and have to get one soon, time is running out for this coming season.

[LABS4ME]

Kodiak, just an idea here...last pup I got I bought from a breeder in Cleveland. Found out to ship the pup wasn't going to be much less than getting a ticket myself. I was told I can only have one carry-on so this is what I did. Booked my trip for saturday morning departure, (needed saturday night stay for cheap ticket) Took a puppy crate (my one carry-on), put a clean shirt, pair of undies, toothbrush, travel size toothpaste and travel size deoderant inside. Rented a car for one night, drove to breeders (who put me up for the night), took shower in a.m., threw away undies, toothbrush, deoderant, put dirty shirt in crate for puppy to lay on, took breeder to Sunday brunch, dropped off car and exercised the heck out of puppy, put in crate, boarded plane with carry-on (puppy in crate) put under seat and came home. Total trip was I think $350.00. Shipping would've been around $200.00, but I got some "face time" in with breeder, and "controlled" the shipping of the pup myself. Worked out great, and shipping in winter wouldn't be a picnic for a puppy in "baggage".

Good Luck! Ken

[duckbuster]

Kodiak: I hope I didn't scare you away from getting a puppy via the air. The female I have now, who just turned 1, was shipped to me from Kansas City.She flew via Delta airlines. She was 6 1/2 weeks old when we got her. Remember one thing in your favor, there is NOTHING cuter than a Lab puppy. What I mean is they get taken care of pretty good by the cargo people.

GOOD LUCK with your decision & keep us posted.

[duckbuster]

LABS: That was a great idea!!! One thing about shipping in the winter or spring time, the outside temp. has to be a certain degree or they will not ship the dog. That was a concern for us last spring. Ours was shipped 3-17-03 and we thought we were going to have to delay it by a couple of days. Doing it the way you describe eliminates the worry of the outside temp. plus like you stated you get "face" time with the breeder.
Did you have some people coming over to look at your carry-on luggage? Nothing more adorable than a little lab pup!!!

[LABS4ME]

Yep...lot's of people checking the "carry-on", even one air marshall who obviously didn't like dogs , let's just say she stayed in the crate till the twin cities.

You're right about shipping during the winter and concerns about temps, I would not have been able to ship her cargo at the time I picked her up as it was only a high of 5 degrees in the twin cities when I got her. All in all it was a slick operation!

Good luck! Ken

[Kodiak]

GREAT INFO!!!! keep it coming, how can you pick your puppy though, isnt it a good idea to see your puppy in "action" to make a good choice? I love your guy's info and stories keep it coming, is there any local guys though?

[duckbuster]

Kodiak: I started researching for my puppy 5-6 months before I picked her up. I had 3 studs that I wanted her to come from, so I called the owners of the studs and asked them if they had any upcoming litters. I got a list of 13 litters from all over the country, Idaho, Texas, New Orleans, Kansas City and Canada. Most of the litters eliminated themselves because there was not going to be any yellows in the group. When I decided on the Kansas City litter I talked to the breeder and because I was the 1st to commit to the litter I had pick of the litter.
I told him a few things I wanted him to do in picking her out. Like you, 1st and foremost I wanted the lightest yellow in the group, so long as she past a couple of the test. Since he is also a pro trainer he had a little bit of knowledge on what to look for. Eventually it came down to my trust in him making a decision from my ideas and his being able to see the puppies everyday. As it stands today I am very, very pleased with our pick!!!

A bit of FYI, when doing the research I talk to a women at Dokkens kennel, she thought the lightest yellows came from to blacks. Mary Howley, (Candlewood Kennels) on the other hand didn't agree. I will say in my dealings with Mary she seems to be a gruff, in your face type of person. BUT and this is a big BUT there are not to many people in the field trial business with more respect than Mary Howley has. Especially when it comes to breeding quality labs!!!
Mary is located in Wisconsin by the way.

Keep us posted.

[Benny]

Kodiak, you are right in assuming one should see the litter.Provided the litter is close enough to do so.

I as well took my time picking a pup, did the Wolters tests per the Game Dog book.
Pick one pup, take it out side and see what it does.
Does it want to be by you, run from you,want to go back in, is it playfull?

You want a curious ,playfull pup as they tend to have the most drive.

Then pick it up, turn pup over up sidedown with its feet up in the air.Hold firmly on the chest, does pup struggle and fight or does it settle down after a few seconds and let you hold it?

You want a pup that will not struggle for domanance, but will give in to your holding it.It will be easyer to train than a dominant pup.

Watch which pup is the most couriuos, the one that wants to see where your at or be by you.
You don't want one that takes off on its own or one that hides.

Hind sight, I would have held out a little longer for a pup from a reputabale breader.
There were some awsome pups here not long ago from Annendale area.

The guy I got my pup from was not to caring, he didn't get the dew claws taken out, pup was full of round worms as well.

My vet said the dew claws will be fine unless I hunt a lot of heavey brush, but he was P.O ed about the worms.They can spread to other animals even two years after they have been relieved from the dog.They can live in the soil for that long.

Good luck in your search.

Benny

[LABS4ME]

You don't have to worry about seeing the litter or picking your pups if you use a reputable breeder and specifically explain your intentions on what you're looking for in a pup. They can pick a pup for you.

I've bought puppies out of state and had the breeder do the picking for me and have had good results. It's not like there are only a couple "good" pups to choose from and the rest go out with the dirty water...

Over the last 3 litters I have adopted a system with my pups where I do the picking for the owners. Who else knows the puppies as well as I, the breeder, who's with them every day for 7 weeks? You really cannot make an accurate decision 100% of the time when viewing the puppies on "take home" day. A puppy can be overly calm from just playing hard with it's litter mates or vice-versa overly rambunctious from just waking up when you're there viwing them. I specifically ask what my clients are looking for and use that criteria in selecting their puppy. If there are similar pups that show the same tendencies I let them choose between the 2 at that point. I have numerous examples (I'll only give a couple) to support my case on this style of placement, that it is the best way to go... and ironically it started because of a light colored puppy. I had a family who had first choice of a female yellow... he hunts only 2-3 times a year (generally game farms) and they were primarily looking for a family dog. They came to pick their pup and in the 1st minute they wanted this lighter pup. I tried to explain to them that she was one of the "higher rollers" in the litter and they should look closely at the other yellow female as she was very calm and deliberate in everything she did. Nope... had to have the lighter one, well I had a field trialer (and intense hunter) who was second for yellow females and I had to tell him my honest assessment that this other pup wasn't a high roller and he may want to look at one of the blacks I had left. It was really a shame as I know the other couple had what potentially would have been one of the better field dogs in that litter and it was going to be whiling it's life away on the floor of a kitchen. On the flip side during this last litter, I had a couple that wanted a real calm female as they were living in a small house with 2 cats and the dog would occassionally go to work with them. I had the perfect puppy. When they were picking their pup up they saw a smaller female in the litter and they then said they would like a smaller dog. I told them that that particular puppy was taken and was going to a trial home. It would be smaller than theirs but was extremely "busy". They left with their puppy and though fairly large for a female (65-70 lbs) she is in every other way what they wer looking for. On the other hand the "little" female from that litter topped out at 48 lbs. and is in the final training stages to run derby events this summer and will be extensivly hunted once done being campaigned.

I tell my clients when they ask what position they're in for selecting a puppy that I do the selection for them based on the criteria they give me and it's worked amazingly well, I really don't get complaints about the system. The only complaint I get is: I generally won't show the remaining puppies when they come to pick their pup up. It is then that the clients will start to "choose" pups based on emotions (size vs. color vs. cute and fuzzy antics etc). They are welcome to view the litter at 4-5 weeks (before thier personalities really come out) if they would like, but I generally limit it to the one visit. If you have 8 puppies and everyone would come once a week, the general visit is 45 min- 1 hour you're basically adding one work day to every week on top of everything else you are doing to raise that litter.

Sorry for the llong post...but don't worry to much about a breeder doing the picking for you...

Good luck in your search!

Ken

[duckbuster]

LABS4ME: Very informative reply, I think you hit it right on the head the way you do it for your customers.
The little female at 45lbs is this the puppy that is down in Texas right now and the one I will be competing against this summer?
Have you been up to LOW lately? I will be posting a question on that site here shortly. My 7 yr old daughter and I are going up next weekend and want some info on morris pt or Zipple.

[LABS4ME]

Yep...that's her. I hope to take in an event or 2 to watch her run. We'll have to hook up at one of them. Dave's going down towards the end of next month to work with Greg and the pup.

Haven't been to LOW for a while...too much snow to deal with. Taking the sleds and hitting Knights-Bridges at the end of the month. I hope we get into some bigguns. Give me a call sometime and let's see if we can get on the ice together b-4 the season is over.

Good Luck!

Ken

[duckbuster]

LABS4ME: I posted my trial schedule on the calendar for my wife to see the other day and there are just the few weekends in June around National time where we will not being running a Derby. She will be running her 1st trial in Florida the 1st weekend in March. My 1st trial with her will probably be April 23-25 down in Nebraska.

My daughter and I will be up on LOW 2-28. I think I'm going to go out of Morris PT. or Zippel. Is that the same weekend you will be up there with the sleds? I'm going back up March 12-14 with my buddies. If you will be up then we will have to have a cold MGD at the bar. Let me know.

[BLACKJACK]

Over the years I've had a couple litters of lab pups and I'd have to second what Labs4me says, that the breeder is better qualified to pick the pups out of the litters that match what you want. Just watching them play over a seven week timespan, you can tell which one is 'the bull', which one is 'the wimp', which ones are the most active, etc. If you insist on seeing the pups and picking your own, at least ask the breeder about their personalities.