ATV Electrical ?'s

[Dave S]

This directed more to the guys who were answering questions in regards to charging systems and their differences between vehicles.

So, to the guys who have backgrounds in the electrical field some questions I have is:

1) In other posts, we talked about leaving vehicles started while jump starting another vehicle. In this case an ATV had the dead battery. What are the pros and cons of leaving a vehicle started in this situation?

2) If leaving the vehicle running, what effects might this have on components in either vehicle i.e. voltage regulators, CDI, ECU, coils, pickup coils, fuses, stators, starters.

3) Will the gage of the cable or wires within each vehicle make a difference whether or not they are more susceptible to damage or over-heating.

4) There are many different batteries on the market today. There has been recent talk of AGM batteries, I've personally used Odyssey batteries, then there's the acid lead core batteries. Which would you feel is better in the circumstances in past discussions.

5) If a motor is reluctant to start, what is the maximum cycle time that one should attempt to start before damage is done to the starter? I realize this may vary between vehicles.

6) I think we'd all agree that cold weather can adversely affect the performance of a battery, aside from battery tenders, what's your best advice for those who don't have the tenders on their ATV's?

7) Can a battery be drained or damaged if left on a concrete floor or is this an urban legend?

8) There was much discussion about volts, watts, amps, impedence and ohms. Can you explain how these are relative to each other or the definition of each?

I'm hoping to get some things clarified so hopefully we can have the right answers across the board. I'm also hoping that this thread can be as informative as possible.

Anything else that you guys can add in regards to the demands of an electrical system when adding things such as winches, hand warmers, thumb warmers accessories into the 12V outlet or anything else that you might feel could tax the system on an ATV would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to all!!!

[BobT]

You’ve asked for my “professional” opinion for what it’s worth so here goes.

Quote:

1) In other posts, we talked about leaving vehicles started while jump starting another vehicle. In this case an ATV had the dead battery. What are the pros and cons of leaving a vehicle started in this situation?

I personally do not believe it is a problem to use a car to jump start an ATV. To prevent accidentally drawing your car’s battery too low in the process, leave it run. Otherwise, you may end up with two dead vehicles.

Be careful to connect the jumper cables correctly and in the correct order. For negative grounded applications this is the order.

1. Connect RED cable to (+) terminal on dead battery

2. Connect other RED cable to (+) terminal on car battery

3. Connect BLACK cable to (-) terminal on car battery

4. Connect other BLACK cable to frame of dead vehicle

Now for the disclaimer I found. Some manufacturers recommend not running the car while jump starting another vehicle. It’s best to check your owner’s manual. This is referring to jump starting any vehicle and not specific to ATVs.

Quote:

2) If leaving the vehicle running, what effects might this have on components in either vehicle i.e. voltage regulators, CDI, ECU, coils, pickup coils, fuses, stators, starters.

The most likely thing I can think of is the potential damage resulting from accidentally connecting the cables in reverse polarity. This would most likely cause damage to the voltage regulator, battery, etc. and may even be potentially dangerous of bystanders.

Quote:

3) Will the gage of the cable or wires within each vehicle make a difference whether or not they are more susceptible to damage or over-heating.

Yes, but in most cases booster cables are large enough to handle most situations.

Quote:

4) There are many different batteries on the market today. There has been recent talk of AGM batteries, I've personally used Odyssey batteries, then there's the acid lead core batteries. Which would you feel is better in the circumstances in past discussions.

I don’t know enough about the differences to comment.

Quote:

5) If a motor is reluctant to start, what is the maximum cycle time that one should attempt to start before damage is done to the starter? I realize this may vary between vehicles.

Your owner’s manual should be helpful here. In most cases I’ve seen 20 seconds to be the maximum cranking time allowed. Starter motors are employed to drive a very high demanding load and this results in high current flow through the starter motor. The result is heat. Cranking a starter motor too long or too often doesn’t give it opportunity to cool off and the excess heat can break down the winding insulation and reduce the motor’s life.

Quote:

6) I think we'd all agree that cold weather can adversely affect the performance of a battery, aside from battery tenders, what's your best advice for those who don't have the tenders on their ATV's?

Once you start your ATV it should be run long enough to give it ample opportunity to recharge the battery. Even then, it doesn’t hurt to put a charger on the battery from time to time to make sure it is getting a full charge. One of the worst things you can do for any battery in any condition is to leave it set without a full charge. The colder it gets, the more likely damage from freezing could result.

Quote:

7) Can a battery be drained or damaged if left on a concrete floor or is this an urban legend?

This is not true. Search and check out any battery manufacturer’s site and they probably have this in their FAQs.

Quote:

8) There was much discussion about volts, watts, amps, impedance and ohms. Can you explain how these are relative to each other or the definition of each?

Volt – This is a measure of electrical potential difference between two points.

Watt – This is a measure of power (in dc circuits).

Ampere – This is a measure of current flow over a conductor.

Impedance – Similar to resistance this is a measure of a circuits tendency to impede electrical flow. Where it differs is that it accounts for resistance plus a peculiar electrical phenomenon called reactance. Reactance is the result of the combined forces of inductance and capacitance. In simplest terms, t’s a type of resistance.

Ohm – This is a measure of resistance of a conductor.

The relationship between most of these can be summed up by just a couple formulas.

Ohm’s Law, E=IR, is the relationship formula for voltage (E), amperes (I), and resistance ®. If you know two of three variables you can calculate the third. For example, if I have a total 100 ohm resistance and 12v supply I can calculate that the current flow in my circuit will be 12v / 100ohms = .12amps. or 120mA. It won’t matter how much power my supply is capable of delivering, the result is the same.

Joule’s Law, P=EI, is the relationship formula for power (P), voltage (E), and amperes (I). I should now define power. This can get a little deep so I’ll keep it simple. Power for dc circuits is true power and is expressed in watts. Power for ac circuits can be reactive power expressed in VAR (volt-amp-reactance) or apparent power expressed in VA (volt-amp). For our discussion we are primarily dealing with true power or watts.

For dc circuits these two formulas can be used together to calculate just about anything about the circuit. If you search the web for “electrical power wheel” you should find some helpful results. One in particular points to a TechNote about equations.

Impedance adds a lot of complexity and primarily applies to ac circuits. It’s probably best not to get into this topic as it is very confusing and deep.

Finally, motors are a topic all by themselves and can range from very simple to extremely complex. For our discussion however, motors are rather simple and related to this discussion represent a resistance in the circuit. The resistance will vary depending on how much load is applied to the motor shaft. The more load applied, the lower the resistance becomes and from . If the load jams the rotor tight, the motor will draw maximum current called locked rotor current. This can be many times the normal rated current of the motor.

Starter motors rarely get to operate in their normal rated current because we put a heavy load on them by design. It takes a lot of power to turn over an engine and to do it fast enough means the gear ratio is quite high. The colder it gets, the stiffer things become, and that adds to the load. As it gets colder and the load increases, the more current the starter motor will demand. Unfortunately, the colder it gets, the slower the chemical reaction in our batteries and so it gets harder for our batteries to deliver the needed current.

Hope this is helpful,

Bob

[Dave S]

Thanks for the info Bob.

I figured with the questions I asked, the response would be lengthy and you didn't disappoint.

[BobT]

I don't want to deviate from your intended path here but thought this might be helpful information as well.

One common comment we see here is how batteries don't seem to last very long in ATVs. This is especially true for those that employ the use of plows and other attached equipment.

Many of these pieces use the winch as a means to raise and lower. The problem is that every additional device you add that includes electric power also adds load to the charging system.

Every time you use the winch to raise the plow, the charging system has to recharge the battery from the energy you drained from it. The charging system on your ATV was never designed to do much more than maintain your battery and operate your lights and so the extra heavy use of the winch is more demanding than your charging system is capable of supplying.

As a result of this, it is very likely that your battery is not fully charged when you are done using the ATV to plow your driveway and so you park it with the battery only partially charged up. As I've mentioned before, this is a very hard life for a battery, especially in cold weather where it can be subject to freezing.

The best way to combat this is to put your battery on a charger immediately after you're done plowing so it can be fully refreshed.

Bob

[Dave S]

Good point Bob.

My main goal of this topic was to bring some of the issues with ATV electrical/charging systems into the light (pun intended).

This is the time of year where ATVs are really put to the test. Along with your point, ATVs also need to run at a high enough rpm to ensure the charging system is doing its job. Often times I have seen people "lugging" along in high range or a higher gear. Be it pushing snow or puttin' down a trail.

[Roofer]

This is what I have come up with........

Bob may be right in the respect that jumping an atv with a car won't hurt anything, but I think the reasoning is wrong or I missed something.

I believe a car's charging system (alternator) DOES put out too much power for an atv to handle....although, it looks like the voltage regulator and/or stator may "absorb" this.

Is that correct?

According to manuals I have read, it is still best for the battery and the atv to have the battery fully charged as much as possible. Running at slow rpms out to a fish house and leaving them outside in the winter is very bad.

As I have said many times in the past, Most of these problems can be solved by using the atv more often. This we can blame on the limited trails we have and limited time.

[Roofer]

As for people without battery tenders or a heated garage, one member here mentioned removing the battery and bringing it indoors. Sounds like a good idea to me.

I have also read that in some atv's, it could possibly damage some components running on a low charged battery. Not sure how much truth is to that, but it is the manual on both of my Polaris atv's.

[Macgyver55]

I believe a car's charging system (alternator) DOES put out too much power for an atv to handle....although, it looks like the voltage regulator and/or stator may "absorb" this.

Is that correct?

No not really. As I said in the other thread, the problem leaving it hooked up any longer than it takes to start the ATV means it will begin charging the dead ATV battery at a rate too high for that smaller sized battery. A vehicle alternator is capable of delivering only a small percentage of what the actual battery can. A newer car alternator generally puts out anywhere from 90 to 150 amps. That is the FULL output of the alternator under load, under ideal conditions. An average car battery puts out anywhere from 550 to maybe 900 CCA. This again is only under a load, fully charged. No amperage is "pushed out" of the good battery into the ATV, what ever power is needed to start it is delivered by the good battery when the load is placed on it. Thats why you could have several batteries in parallel with 1000s of amps available and still not damage the system.

[Roofer]

Are the parts (wires, starter, etc.) of atv's and motorcycles "heavy" enough for a battery with that many CCA's?

What is the CCA's of an atv battery or lawnmower battery?

[Macgyver55]

A typical ATV battery is approximately 200 to 275 CCAs.

The part I am having a hard time explaining is that no matter how many amps are available, the starter will only draw what it needs. The cables on the ATV are sized to meet that need, and the starter wont draw any more than is required, (unless it is shorted internally)

The load that is put on a battery by a starter is no different than a load placed on it by a light bulb, they both use amperage to operate. A starter is just a much bigger load. The difference is, a light bulb will go for many hours before the battery goes dead, where the starter will drain the battery much faster. When you hook up jumper cables, the "power" isn't going anywhere except to the battery it is hooked to, when you turn on the ignition, the only "power" that is used is what is being drawn from the battery.

As an example, hook a 12volt bulb to an ATV battery....now hook the same bulb to 2 car batteries in parallel, is it any brighter? Did the wires get hotter? Now hook it to 4 or 6 batteries in parallel, any brighter? Wires any hotter?

The answers to all of these will be no.

I dont know if I can explain it any more than this, but suffice to say it is all very clear once you are familiar with electrical systems.

[Roofer]

Good explanation.

So, actually we could run any size battery we want in an atv, as long as we don't change anything else like higher wattage bulbs "pulling" more power through the wires, and as long as it's 12 volt.

The starter, lights, everything should run exactly the same no matter how many amps are available to it.

[Dave S]

correct.

Another thing that I could use some clarification on is, if attempting to draw too much through too little of a cable or wire, will this create too much "resistance" causing things to over heat? Or in this case, would that be considered impedence?

Whenever I'm in the garage working, I prefer to use a heavier extension cord and only as long as I need to keep things like drills from getting too hot.

Yeah, that's right, I'm still not with the times and DON"T OWN A CORDLESS DRILL

[Macgyver55]

Pretty much true...An ATV charging system puts out 14.6 volts when working normally. That is exactly the same as an automobile system does. So yes, you could charge a large auto battery with an ATV charging system, but its amperage output is less than an auto system so it would take longer. The difference in the charging systems, is that car/pickup runs many more things more constantly off of its system than an ATV does, so the need for a larger battery and alternator is greater. If it were not for winching/plowing the draw on an ATV system is very minimal therefore it has the ability to use a smaller battery and charging system. Hand warmers, lights and ignition systems use a very small amount of amperage compared to a starter or winch.

[Macgyver55]

Another thing that I could use some clarification on is, if attempting to draw too much through too little of a cable or wire, will this create too much "resistance" causing things to over heat? Or in this case, would that be considered impedence?

Yes, this is correct. Too many accessories on one circuit, or too small of gauge wire for a particular circuit will cause heat to build up and either melt wires or blow fuses.

Also, too small of wire gauge will cause things (like a winch) to not have as much power as it should and to prematurely wear brushes and armatures.

[Dave S]

Thanks Mac.

[BobT]

One misconception LEP7MM is in your question you asked if drawing too much through small wire will create too much "resistance". The wire's resistance, for all practical purposes, is constant. Supplying more devices doesn't change the wire's resistance. What they do is add more "load" to the circuit. More load = more current = more heat. Current flowing through a wire is what causes heat.

I'll refer to Mac's light bulb example. Look at the size of the wire inside that bulb. It is extremely fine and when the current flows over it, it gets very hot, very fast. So hot in fact that it is burning white hot. The only reason it doesn't burn out in a fraction of a second is because the inside of the bulb has no oxygen. There are inert gases that resist combustion and so the wire is able to keep burning white hot for an extended period of time.

Your car or ATV has fuses in each circuit to protect the wires from overheating. The wires are sized to handle the amperage rating of the fuses and so as long as we use the correct fuse we are protecting the wires. Replace that fuse with a higher rated one and you make it possible to supply a load that exceeds the rating of the wire and could therefore cause the wire to overheat and perhaps ignite.

Bob

[LMITOUT]

To be correct, a wire's resistance increases with it's temperature, so the resistance is not constant. This is why if you pick up a copy of the NEC you'll see different amperage ratings for wires in free-air, in duct, direct burial, etc.

If the temperature is extremely low you'll then have a superconductor with almost no resistance at all.

[Roofer]

Wow, getting a little specific. How about video proof of all of this? J/K

I'm actually starting to lose interest now.

[sparkydm]

LMITOUT, you are correct about the heating effect on a conductors's resistance. As temp goes up, so does resistance. This heat is not only created by current flowing through the wire, it also comes from other sources such as hot exhaust pipes and engine. Whenever adding accessories it is best to run a new circuit to prevent overloading of an existing circuit. Wires should be sized to handle the load being served, fused properly, and routed as far away from high heat as possible. For high draw items such as a winch, it wouldn't hurt to oversize the wire. This will ensure that the winch motor gets all the power it needs. This is to reduce the effects of voltage drop. Too low of voltage to a motor will cause the current to increase. This is proved by Ohm's Law which I referred to in the other thread and BOBT in this one. I'm not sure if this is important on an atv as the wire length is so short, but we are talking about only 12 volts so my thinking is we need to preserve as many volts as possible to prevent low voltage overheating of the winch motor. I could go on and on with this but I've got to get ready for work. Hope this helps out a little more.

[sparkydm]

Thought of another issue relating to heat and resistance. CONNECTIONS! Loose connections create resistance which in turn creates heat. I've seen el cheapo crimp connectors literally burned off from being too loose. Use good quality connectors and use a proper crimping tool. A little solder won't hurt either but the main thing is to get a tight mechanical connection between wire and connector.

[Dave S]

WOW guys.

Great info!!

Another question that comes to mind is the difference between braided wire vs. solid wire and how it may pertain to heat/resistance. Maybe it's minimal.

Now I do understand that the majority of braided wires are tightly wound and they're obviously more user friendly in items such as power cords on tools or extension cords whereas the wiring in houses, if I'm not mistaken, is usually solid wire.

Thanks again.

[sparkydm]

Stranded wire is used in vehicle applications because of vibration. If solid wire was used the vibration would cause wires to break, similar to taking a piece of wire and repeatedly bending back and forth until it breaks.

[BobT]

To be correct, a wire's resistance increases with it's temperature, so the resistance is not constant. This is why if you pick up a copy of the NEC you'll see different amperage ratings for wires in free-air, in duct, direct burial, etc.

If the temperature is extremely low you'll then have a superconductor with almost no resistance at all.

This is correct but remember that I said, "for all practical purposes." In other words for purpose of the discussion of this topic and to keep it simple without getting too deep into deisgn theories that will bore most visitors to this site.

Bob

[BobT]

The thing is, if we start getting deeper than the bare basics, we'll go into places that confuse even the most experienced engineers. When you work with electricity on a regular basis the one thing you learn rather quickly is that all things don't apply to all situations all the time. There are a few basic "rules" or mathematical laws that we are able to use confidentally but there are exceptions on occasion.

With that said, I tried my hardest to keep my explanations as basic and simple as I could. The information is valid but exceptions can be found.

Bob

[Dave S]

With that said, I tried my hardest to keep my explanations as basic and simple as I could. The information is valid but exceptions can be found.

Bob

Thanks to all for the info. Hopefully this helped clarify some things.