Growing grass under Red Maple Tree

[Whisker Trout Slayer]

In our back yard we have 2 nice Shady red Maple trees and under it is very patchy grass and rough. I thinned out some of the lower branches of the trees to get more sun to the ground and have tried to do some seeding and aerated it with no luck. The people that lived here before us were an old couple and I knwo that they could not get out to do proper lawn maintenance, which I am thinking thet in the fall the laeves did not get raked up and the leaves on the ground in the spring time after the snow killed off the grass in patches.

Since it is so rough I am almost to the point of tilling it up adding some composted soil, starter fertilizer and reseed it.

Any thoughs or ideas out there? Anybody else have this problem? Does it have anythign to do with the fact that it is under Red Maples by them changing the soil ph?

Any information from the lawn experts with information about growing grass under Red Maple trees would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[hotrod1]

how far out from the tree are you having problems with?

My guess is the trees roots are sucking up any nutrients and alot of the water that is applied near the tree.

My suggestion would be to put down mulch around the tree.

[Quetico]

Ok this falls under the category of FAQ in my book.

First dont till the soil under an established tree unless your trying to kill it. Tilling will destroy the shallow roots that are vital to the tree. Realize that most tree roots are within thew top 12" of soil. I've done root excavation during a course at the U of M to see how much of the root system is extremely shallow.

Trees and turf are generally tough competition with each other for nutrients as their primary root zones are the same. That's why its recommended that you mulch under your tree.

Your best solution would be to lay mulch around the tree in the area that's doing poorly. If its a larger area plant with shade tolerant plants. Make sure you don't mulch your tree to death. About 3-4" of finer mulch or 5-6" of very course mulch.

If you want to make another attempt at turf, smooth the area out by adding just enough soil to level everything out. Make sure its not more then 2-3" so you don't cause root damage to the tree. Reseed with fine fescue, which is the most shade tolerant turf specie.

I hope I didn't overwhelm anyone.

Good luck.

[Steve Foss]

Excellent advice, Quetico. I generally go for the mulch and perennials option under large trees because I like how that looks so much.

[Powerstroke]

I have to completely agree with Quetico. If you do choose to plant seed, you'll need to use some fescues. It is a shade tolerant grass with very fine blades. I have it under both of my silver maples and it does well. I would mulch under mine if it didn't mean getting a 1/4 acre of mulch a couple inches deep.

[Quetico]

I like mulch and planting because I don't like turf in case you haven't been reading my previous posts under lawn and garden. I have a length list of plants that will do well under shade trees. So if you need a few suggestions just ask.

[Steve Foss]

Same preference for me, Q. As time goes by, we lose more and more lawn in our yard and gain more and more perennial plantings.

I don't have large shade trees in this yard (it borders the woods) or they'd already have tons of different hosta cultivars under them. I must confess I am a hosta lover!

I for one would like to see your list. I've developed a similar list of shade tolerant perennials myself over the years and would like to see if anything's missing from mine. I've generally only lived in Zone 3, but in Eagan I bet you've got some Zone 4 plants on that list. Maybe even a few Zone 5ers?

[Quetico]

stfcat you live in Ely? Do you know if VCC ever did anything with the design work my buddies and I did for them 2 years ago?

With all my plant lists just be warned I am designer that specializes in using natives and plants that are out of the ordinary.

Plant for under shade trees (all are zone 3):

Columbine-native or otherwise

Canada Anemone

Smooth Aster

Wild Geranium

Prairie Smoke-personal favorite for spring show great edge plant

Bigleaf Aster

Sky Blue Aster

Cinnamon fern or other fern- for heavy shade areas

Dwarf Crested Iris

Woodland Phlox

Wild Petunia

Mayapple

Basically your looking for plants that can tolerate partial shade to filtered shade to full shade. Yet avoid plants plans that need wet sites unless your planting swamp/wetland or lake edge sites.

Stfcat have you tried any of the red varieties of hosta? Crimson Tide or Red October? Those two really break away from the traditional green, white and teal blue hosta varieties.

As always if you need help locating any of the above plants let me know. I have sources for all of them.

[Steve Foss]

Thanks, Quetico. No idea on the VCC thing. Now that I'm out of the newspaper business I haven't been paying much attention to local events.

I also have not planted either of those red hosta cultivars, though I probably will sooner or later. So far I'm running the range from yellow through the greens and into the blues. Never cared for the traditional green/white hosta, but I do have a couple of them.

Neat list, with several varieties you don't hear about every day. Most don't consider the native flowers when they think about landscaping. A few of the more traditional shade lover cultivated varieties to add in Zone 3 and up, aside from the aforementioned hosta, are lungwort, any variety of bleeding heart and astilbe.

I also forgot to add that, if a person is really going to go to town and put in perennials under a shade tree, blubs like crocus, daffodil and tulip are a great way to get a succession of flowers before the perennials take hold for the season. These are sun-loving bulbs, but that usually works just fine since there's plenty of sun under deciduous trees until well into May in many parts of the north.

And, as mentioned, whether grass or flowers are planted under these trees, they're all competing for the same water/nutrients, so fertilizing is a must to keep it all healthy over time.

[Whisker Trout Slayer]

Thanks for the replies guys. Here is some more specific details about the area.

The 2 trees are about 15 feet apart with the top barely touching (mature trees). The problem area is oval in shape around both of them combined. Example: If the dripedge of the tree was 25 feet from the trunk, the problem area starts about 18 feet from the trunk.

If we get a real long heavy rain or in the spring when the ground is froze and the snow is melting water stands a in the area. It does go away fairly quick especially in the summer time as there is about 1 1/2 feet of topsoil and then it is just pure sand.

The idea of the roots of the tree competing is sounding more like the problem.

I think what I will do is haul in a load of good black dirt, level it, while raising the surface some to prevent the big puddle, and use starter fertilizer and shade grass seed.

I would love to mulch a big area adn plant a hosta bed or other plants but the backyard (where the trees are) is fenced in so our Brittany Spaniel can run free in the yard. I can about guarantee you that the dang dog would dig a bunch of holes and tear it up. Just like he did again today back there. He has a spot that I fill in and finally get some grass to grow in that place the hole was and the dummy would dig it right back.

Once again thanks for your help.

[Quetico]

Just be carefully adding too much soil. The key is that if you add soil, the tree roots will just grow upward into the new soil unless you add too much where you smother out the roots.

Never add more than 2-3" of soil within the dripline.

[paul pachowicz]

Quetico is right!!!...Turf and trees are in constant competition for mositure and sun. Besides, trees filter out certain colors of the spectrum that rob the turf. Quoting the state arborist in So Dakota....He who is there 1st thrives