How far will the SXS market go?

[Dave S]

It's been many years since Kawasaki first released the Mule. Then Polaris made the Ranger. Yamaha's Rhino. Arctic Cat's Prowler. Now Honda's Big Red.

Others have joined the fray, but aren't known to be a true ATV manufacturer.

Rumors are in the mill about Can Am working on a new model for 2009.

Is Kawi going to to release a true "Sport" UTV to compete with the RAZR? Personally, the Teryx looks to be a great machine, but the passengers sit too high to be a true sport machine IMO.

The new Redline, which has nothing in common with the old company except for the name, has a new single seat 75 hp machine with insane suspension travel. This has got to be the most off-road capable "buggy" on the market.

Will Honda revive the Odyssey name and release a direct competitor to the RAZR? If they do, will it have drum brakes? Will it be under-powered? Maybe they'll drop a 3 speed hydraulic transmission in it.

What about Yamaha? They have the 80 hp inline 500cc twin in the Phazer snowmobile. This looks to be an ultimate motor to drop into a new, sportier version of the Rhino. Maybe even a single seat version.

There is so much potential in this market, it makes me sick to think of the machines we'll be drooling over in the next 5 years.

[Roofer]

Redline looks cool, but it looks like a dune buggy. Although most of the UTV aftremarket heads toward "dune buggy".

I hear of Yamaha making a competitor to the Rzr, as well as Can-Am.

It seems to me there are 3-4 markets for this.

The Rzr, reminds me of the Ds or banshee or scrambler in the atv market

The Mule and Ranger are more of the Cub Cadet,John Deere, work platform.

The Teryx, Prowler, and Rhino seem to be the actual UTV market, IMO.

Redline and others seem like a dune machine.

There seems to be no end to the atv market overall, after these things start taking over the market. They seem family oriented and fun. Just the lack of trails and the high price tag.(10-15k+) Still cheaper than two full size atv's, and probably safer for young kids. The aftermarket is huge!

As for Honda, I really hope they make something that looks better than the big red.

[Powerstroke]

I agree that the rzr is in a group of its own. I think it has its place but most people want them for some sort of utility use. I think the 2 seating is great and one of the reasons I want one.

Teryx, Prowler and Rhino I think are most versatile and of course selling the most. I like the aftermarket following and hope it grows. If they come down in price I can see this being the future.

[Dave S]

I hope they have something else in the pipeline too. Don't get me wrong, I obviously like my Honda, but the BR IMO was a step backwards. If Honda seriously wants to survive in the market, they have some homework to do on the majority of their machines.

It's already been established in this and other forums that Honda is #1 in overall sales, but eventually the brand loyalists will start to stray if the technology remains stagnant. I know, I know, if it ain't broke don't fix it. But the BR has a lot to prove if it wants to compete.

[MNexpoler]

Just like ATVs it will flatten out. Atvs will always be way more popular. I'd take an atv over a utv anyday unless I owned a big ranch or consturction site where I had to travel alot.

But your right it seems like there are about four markets. Something thats 100% sport(dune buggy) and something utility i.e. Mule, Ranger, Kubota. And a then theres something in the middle such as a Prowler or Rhino.

[Bjjams]

I think when the Big Red is finally into production it will be quite a bit different than people are thinking. I've looked around the internet to find out specifics of the drive train and the only thing you'll find is that it's 680cc and 3 drive modes. I haven't found anywhere that mentions how many gears it'll have and what sort of 4 wheel drive it'll have. My guess is it'll have a low gear and a locker, but they are keeping hush hush about it. I also believe you'll see the same setup in an atv in 2009. It'll basically take away the complaints people are having with the Rincon. Honda seems to rework their flagship every 3 years. 2003 introduced Rincon, 2006 new features like efi and discs, 2009 who knows. I'm not buying a new atv until I see what Honda does in 2009.

As for the styling of the BR I think they'll improve it somewhat from what was released last year. If you look at what the Rincon looked like when they introduced, it was quite a bit different than actual production. If honda reworks the nose a little I think they'll have one good looking ute. I wouldn't rule out the Big Red until they are into production.

Their might be a bit of wishful thinking on my part but it's possible. I personally wouldn't buy a utv until more trails are open for them.

[Powerstroke]

I hope they rework it. I think its ugly and too utility oriented.

I was reading somewhere else that there is some cap on how big the motors can be or their HP output and thats why they haven't introduced something more powerful. I had asked the question about AC putting the new 1000 motor in the prolwer since they have it in their ATV now and I received a response about the motor output being capped by some rules. I wish I could find it again.

Anyway, I think if that changes there could be some great advancements.

I agree that the ATV market will always be there, but if its between a decked out 2up or a nice SXS, I think most people will start to gravitate towards the SxS.

I hope to see more EFI in the SxS market too. IMO offering the Teryx with a 4stroke and carbs fell short. Everything is moving towards EFI, why not start there right away, the 750 in the Brute has EFI doesn't it?

[jltimm]

Yeah, the new 2008 Brute Force is fuel injected. I don't know why Kawi would not have done the same to the T-rex? Yamaha could of put the power steering int the Rhino also, but just did the 700 with fuel injection. Maybe the Rhino's are already easy to steer? On another note, Honda's new side by side is about the ugliest thing I've ever seen, so I hope they change the looks on it. Hope it has disc brakes or a wet brake system also. Honda really doesn't seem to try to compete, they seem happy to upgrade something whenever it's convenient. Their rock solid reliability in their name is what keeps them selling and probably will for awhile.

[Dave S]

I was reading a Polaris brochure when my dad was looking for a UTV. It said in there that according to MN state law, they are capped at 40 hp.

This will more than likely change so long as the ergonomics of the machines change to make them more stable and with Polaris and Arctic Cat here in MN, there's a lot of funding to push new legislation.

The RAZR is exempt from the 40 hp cap since it meets the requirements for a Class I ATV. Same thing with the Redline Revolt.

As far as easy steering on the Rhino. Not at all. I think power steering would be a huge benefit on all of the UTV's.

I am a little concerned about the plastic gears in the power steering on both the Honda and Yamaha. I can't see them lasting too long for anyone who upgrades to larger tires or even tracks. I hope I'm proven wrong.

[Roofer]

 Originally Posted By: jltimm

Yeah, the new 2008 Brute Force is fuel injected. I don't know why Kawi would not have done the same to the T-rex?

One word.......modifications

The carb brutes with a few bolt ons are much quicker than the '08 could ever hope to be.....for right now anyways. Fuel injection is already in the works for the Teryx.

The 750 V-twin Kawi engine is probably the most modified engine of all time, with the close second going to the 350 twin 2 stroke Banshee motor.

It is bogged down to 44 HP from the brutes original 51 for reasons already stated.

As LEP7MM said, the RZR doesn't go by the same 'guidelines' because of it's small size.

I took a look at both the RZR and the Teryx at the dealer and the Teryx made the RZR look like a kids toy as far as size and ruggedness.

I was disappointed to hear the new Rhino 700 was speed limited to 42 MPH, and no mods available because it is EFI.

My thought is that Honda will release the BR without anything above what the Rincon has now. I don't see a locker for Honda at all, or more power. This would ruin their reliability factor they have now. I don't think they had much of a jump in performance going from the 650 to the 680 either in the Rincon. Reliability is number 1 for Honda. Why would they want to jeopardize that with a bigger, heavier machine..........

AC, who knows......They blew my thoughts with the Thundercat 950 already. I never thought a MN based company would produce something that can't be licensed as an atv.

[Dave S]

the Thundercat can be licensed as a Class II atv. But what fun is that?

The jump in displacement from 650 to 680 (actually 675) in the Rincon was a good boost in hp with the added EFI that came with that jump.

I've ridden a 650 before and it seemed slower than most of the 500 class machines.

[Roofer]

Interesting, I have heard different.....but haven't driven them myself.

I hope something changes, whatever it is, because it seems to me that 40 HP for machines that are over 900 lbs and up to 1500 lbs isn't sufficient.

[jltimm]

AC, who knows......They blew my thoughts with the Thundercat 950 already

I sure don't hear much about that big, bad, Thundercat? Makes me wonder why, other than there isn't to many of them out there.

[Dave S]

I think AC put the cart infront of the horse when they released the T-Cat.

Until they get this machine approved for Class I ATV trails, they might not sell too many. It will be a popular machine with the hard-core mudding group. Just not here in their home state with the trails that we have.

[Roofer]

I don't think the power is what everyone expected. Huge price tag, (even higher than the CanAm) and not much more performance than the others.

I agree though, with the longer wheelbase and big torque, they will be big in the mudding. In a few weeks, we will hear what they do at Mud Nationals.

[jltimm]

Wonder how the T-rex's will do in the mud? The Rhino's are always impressive playing in the mud.

[Roofer]

It will be interesting to see how they do. I have read a little and some say the belt didn't last, but they were running 31" outlaws on a stock Teryx in thick mud.