Where Everyone going Opening Day Spearing?

[Cheeser]

All I have to say is...wow.

I read this whole thread, and it was actually good reading until the bashing started.

Rob Kimm, your post was especially enjoyable, as I can relate to what you are saying. However, I would like to to some of the comments by muskiemachinery:

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I think Muskie anglers should be aware that the Dark House Assoc. and the new and improved "No More Muskies" (now called "Sportsmen for Responsible Musky Management") are making a big political push and misinformation campaign aimed at reducing if not stopping the current Muskie program in Mn. (see muskytrouble.com)

I believe their agenda is to eliminate the few remaining designated Muskie lakes(no spearing), radically reduce moneys spent on Muskie stocking and stop implication of new Muskie water in the state. To accomplish this it seems that the plan is to totally circumvent the DNR and use misinformation and political power to attain these goals.

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In an effort to gather as much information as I could before posting, I went out to the web site you listed above. I didn't find anything there that led me to believe that this effort had anything to do with the Dark House Assoc. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here; it would appear that this is coming more from the walleye folks. I have first hand knowledge of this, as I have many relatives that live in the Alexandria area and the walleye fisherman have pretty much had it up to their eyeballs with the muskie fisherman. Muskies have taken a large bite (no pun intended) out of the Lake Miltona walleye fishery, and the DNR refuses to study it, monitor it, or even acknowledge that there 'may' be something wrong.

If you have anyone to be mad at, start with the DNR.

Here's something else that I've heard that will turn the stomachs of the muskie fisherman. Don't shoot the messenger here; I didn't do this, nor do I condone this behavior. However, I consider the source of this info to be very reliable. There are fisherman who are fishing muskie waters and harvesting muskies simply to remove them from the lakes. In other words, they will take a trophy class muskie, take it home and turn it into fertilizer for their garden, simply to get them out of the water. One person took over 20 (yes, twenty) fish out of a certain lake this summer. Is it illegal? No. Is it ethical? Some say yes, others no.

The muskytrouble web site also doesn't say anything about stopping the current muskie program. I think the whole point is that the MN DNR has not done any studies on the affects of Muskie stocking, and perhaps before they do any more they should take a good look at what happens when you introduce a non-native predator into a fishery before they do irrepairable damage. It would appear that other states have already done studies, however MN is not even interested in considering the results.

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The first salvo in this campaign was French Lake in So. Mn. French was a designated Muskie lake and one of the few stocked Muskie lakes in So. Mn. Originally stocked with Muskies because of a very low Pike population (repeated test nettings verify this continuing fact)French has lost it's designation because of political pressure from these groups and can now be speared. Why would these groups bother to eliminate designation on a low Pike population Muskie lake? I believe it was a test. They won. Is Cass Lake next? Mille Lacs perhaps?

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Before I comment here, I would like to quote you from an earlier post,

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I feel that we as 'Sportmen' have a responsibility not just to live within the regulations imposed on us but to assist in maintaining a quality angling experience for all who wish to enjoy our favored sport. We cannot just sit back and hope that regulations will protect our fisheries. We need to be constantly evolving and coming up with new stragtegies that enhance our preferred sport while at the same time protecting it for the future.It's called being proactive.

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I agree 100% with you, mm. Much like obtaining a driver's license, when we obtain a hunting or fishing license, we have a responsibility. Like Jon said above, it's an ethics issue. However, you or I can't change some people's beliefs. In addition, displacing one type of fishing for another doesn't qualify you as a sportsman. I don't understand why spearing is banned on any lake. To me, it's 'legislation by stupidity'. Should we ban pheasant hunting because people can distinguish between a hen and a rooster? How about no more snow goose hunting in MN because people shoot Trumpeter Swans? No, the answer is in education - identification, ethics, etc. Growing up in Northern MN in my teen's (before the great Minnetonka spearing debacle of 1986 which led to the ban), I would spear with my grandfather on many lakes with Muskies. I'm sure that I watched hundreds (yes, hundreds) of Muskies come through the hole, and I never speared one. Never.

My point here is simple: there is room for everyone.

Muskie fisheries are not going away. Mille Lacs, Leech and Cass are wonderful places to fish. I'd highly doubt that spearing will ever be allowed on these lakes ever again, but that's OK. However, if there are 141 muskie lakes in Minnesota, and so few fisherman targeting muskies, how many more are needed?

Spear fishing is not going away, either.

Know the laws, and abide my them. And, if you see someone breaking them, don't turn the other cheek; call the DNR. They can't be everywhere.

Thanks for listening to my fingers,

--Mark

[bassNspear]

well, pretty much covered it all.

[muskiemachinery]

At a DNR meeting last week the head of the MDHA did say they are not any longer affiliated with the SFRMM. We'll see if that holds.The SFRMM is an offshot of No More Muskes. The MDHA did however push for French to lose it's designation. That may turn out to a huge mistake. We'll also have to see on that point.

You are speculating at best that Muskies caused the walleye crash on Miltona. Evidence points to a perch crash from over-stocking. Both are coming back fine now and the Muskies are still around. Wonder of wonders.

The DNR has studies on prefered Muskie diet galore. Read up instead of spreading speculation. Just because the facts don't bear up with your theories doesn't mean they arn't facts.

I also grew up in my Grandfathers spearhouse so don't tell me what you can see and can't. I know exactly what you can see and you will never convince me that Muskies don't get speared by accident. I'm not even going to address the criminal element you talked about. Poachers are poachers no matter what or why they are poaching.

There are 11,000 lakes in Mn. Muskie lakes consitute less than 2% if my math is right and you can spear most of them anyway so I guess you have already won.

[terrible_fisherman]

Muskie wrote:

"So according to you a total C&R angler suffers a high mortality rate than a spearer? That is an excellent example of what I consider to be misinformation on this thread."

In response to what I wrote:

"I can guarantee that even a conservationist that thows everything back has killed more fish accidentally then I have acidentally killed with my spear."

I have never accidentally killed anything with my spear. It was always purposeful. I am unsure where your misinformation issue comes in?

[Cheeser]

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At a DNR meeting last week the head of the MDHA did say they are not any longer affiliated with the SFRMM. We'll see if that holds.The SFRMM is an offshot of No More Muskes. The MDHA did however push for French to lose it's designation. That may turn out to a huge mistake. We'll also have to see on that point.

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Perhaps. But it's probably more of a moot point. a) You still can't spear muskies on that lake, and b)if you've ever fished that lake, you would understand that it is so cloudy that you couldn't spear there anyway.

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You are speculating at best that Muskies caused the walleye crash on Miltona.

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There is no DNR study to confirm this, so yes.

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Evidence points to a perch crash from over-stocking. Both are coming back fine now and the Muskies are still around. Wonder of wonders.

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Again, no DNR study exists, so this is speculation on your part.

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The DNR has studies on prefered Muskie diet galore. Read up instead of spreading speculation. Just because the facts don't bear up with your theories doesn't mean they arn't facts.

I also grew up in my Grandfathers spearhouse so don't tell me what you can see and can't. I know exactly what you can see and you will never convince me that Muskies don't get speared by accident. I'm not even going to address the criminal element you talked about. Poachers are poachers no matter what or why they are poaching.

There are 11,000 lakes in Mn. Muskie lakes consitute less than 2% if my math is right and you can spear most of them anyway so I guess you have already won.

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OK everyone.....deep breath....

mm, I double checked my post, and I'm pretty sure that I wasn't trying to convince you muskies don't get speared by accident. (I don't even know where that came from) Trust me, I'm probably not any happier about that than you. However, you assume I know nothing about what a muskie eats, and at the end you have drawn the wrong conclusion. I was merely engaging in an insightful conversation neither for nor against anything. I spent more time on the water this year fishing for muskies than any other species. Therefore, it would be safe to say that you speculated my position, and you were wrong.

--Mark

[muskiemachinery]

So everything you threw your spear at was purposeful.. BIG DEAL

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[muskiemachinery]

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[Random guy]

This is a very good topic and it has been a interesting discussion.

Keep it civil.

[Dan L]

I have ben following this thread with interest since I am an avid pike fisherman. What bothers me the most about fishing in Minnesota is the stunted pike problem. I don't care how the pike population has become so stunted.I am sure there is plenty of blame to go around from the DNR to the spear fishermen and anglers. In talking with biologist from the DNR they say one of the biggest problems with Minnesotas fisheries is the stunted pike populations. They consume many walleye fry and perch and anything else in a lake. Pike are meant to have relativly low numbers and larger fish. Way too many big pike have been taken for too many years. I would think more fisherman would like to see this trend reversed but there seems to be alot of opposition.

I think the one fish over 30 inches had more to do with the legislation than the DNR. Ask most biologist in the Minnesota DNR about the one over 30 inch fish and I think they will tell you there is not a benifit to improving pike populations. There is not near enough of a rstriction to be effective. Heck most days I don't catch a pike that big in Minnesota. When I fish for Pike it seems most are under that 22" length.

I don't have a problem with spearing as a sport. The problem I have is whenever a slot is proposed on a lake by lake regulation or a statewide regulation the Darkhouse association seems to oppose it. Whenever a slot regulation is up for review they want the slot ended. I understand that the slots might be threatening for speaers as it makes it more difficult. The bottom line for me is that we need to conserve the big pike in Minnesota to bring the populations back. And by this I mean strict slots not the one over 30 inches per day. That is a joke. Ther are plenty of small pike to be harvested.

[Muskiefool]

The spearing ban will be lifted next year due to the late date that the Legislature changed the law (May "06") without the involvement of the DNR, and the point that both gentlemen involved with this new Anti-stocking movement were from the MDHA raised some major flags, but the fact that the President of the MDHA said he has no involvement leads me to believe him, he has also said he and the group has no problem with stocking new Muskie lakes as long as no restriction is implemented to ban spearing, I respect his passion for the sport and hope that some good can come from working together on issues that we have in common, and if you think that we have plenty of lakes for Muskie fishing around a hundred fishable waters, this is the fastest growing fishing activity in MN, and So. MN has 1 actual body of water that you don't have to pay to launch, and if your using the they have enough defense, 6850-7000 roughly Pike lakes open to spearing ain't half bad either, muskie fishermen compose around 10% by some estimations (since we have no way to track this #) with less that 1% of the lakes, and there is several lakes in So MN that would benefit both in overall quality of fish and to local economy from adding new lakes MI Chapter 54 has no problem with spearing on new lakes in our area, my hope is that there will not be fish killed out of animosity for us and them, I see this as a time for the spear fishermen to show us what they say is true, the numbers and size has been growing on French every year since they began stocking it and now with the introduction of the possible mortality factor from spearing factored into the equation we will get the opportunity to see the effects first hand when the surveys come back fingers are crossed this is a true trophy lake with incredible potential, and some nice Crappie and Walleye that we enjoy, by the way you can spear Leech Lake.

[Early Riser]

I did some digging on demographics in Jay Leitch's book "Darkhouse Spearing Across North America" and found a few statistics as well as a few interesting quotes that add to this good discussion.

Spearer Characteristics: 50% are craftspersons or technicians; 17% are farmers; Very few professionals or service industry persons spear.

The average age of spearers is 40. Since spearing is labor intensive, relatively few very young or very old people spear unless helped out.

Average number of days spearing during a season: 18.

Spearing mortality: 100% of fish chosen to be harvested. 0% of fish released by looking, enjoying, studying and letting swim by.

Angling mortality from C&R: 15% (Wisconsin DNR estimate).

Leitch quoting Rau (1977) in Sports Illustrated:

"Spearing may seem like a primitive, almost barbaric way of taking a legitimate game fish in this age of electronic fish finders, graphite rods and $6,000 bass boats {note inflation }. But that just might be the attraction. Taking a fish in the oldest way known to man. Before hook and line, before rod and real. Before untra-light spincasting gear and lures. A spear. There is something clean and simple and pure at work. There is a sense of being removed from technology sitting inside a darkened box on a frozen lake viewing the timelessness of the lake bottom...."(p.38).

Lietch (2001):

"....How sporting is hunting ducks over decoys, or calling turkeys? or fishing with more than one line? or bass boats, downriggers, graphs, graphite rods, underwater video cameras, and computer reels? Vermont has a fish shooting season. Some deer hunters use semiautomatic .300 magnums with 9-power scopes. Which is more sporting? Darkhouse spearing is an historical and traditional method of fishing. Darkhouse spearers still use essentially the same equipment that they did 50 years ago...."(p.21).

Please note that Leitch isn't saying one sporting pursuit is more ethical than the next. I think as sportsmen and women we should continue to work together to support each other against the anti's, and to improve our water quality and spawning areas. Their gradual deterioration is probably the biggest threat to our fishing.

[jtanelson]

Wow, I just read this entire post!! That was the biggest book I've read in years. I don't spear and was just wondering, why would people pressure for spearing to be allowed on French Lake? It has a very low density of pike, anyone that has ever fished it has to agree to that and if you don't, I would gladly call you a liar to your face. Is this kind of like a little kid and just because you don't have it you want it? Don't take this as an attack on you or your sport, that isn't what it is meant for. I just would like to understand why. Good luck on your opening day and I hope you get the trophy you are looking for. Also could someone post a pic of a northern in a hole and a musky in the hole?

[cjac]

Fun discussion to follow.......

Never speared in my life, never been in a darkhouse, but curious as to what it's about. I think it's a totally different look into the fisheries we are all clearly passionate about, both from a political perspective and a literal look down a hole.

We have 10,000+ lakes, and only 100+ muskie waters, can a common accord be reached? I'd like to think so....but I am not in an educated enough position to comment. However, I'll say this. Those that take the time to comment here are not the ones that are detrimental to the ecological balances in our waters, they are the ones that care enough to comment. I applaud those on both side of the issues at hand to comment. I totally love muskie and pike hunting, and am committed to doing what I can to see it be there for years to come. Spearing is a part of that future. For many of you it is a past pursuit or passion or passing of family tradition. Again, I applaud you. Being a conservationist is not "planting a tree" but being educated and demonstrationing awareness. I read here in the posts the level of passion for the rights of sportsmen and women being represented. We are all looking to protect our rights and common resources.

Do I hope to set the hook on a big pike on a tip up or jig stick? Heck yes! Same as a person in a darkhouse hopes to see one too. Different approaches, differing aspects as what to do with the fish, but same rights. I may let mine go, same as the person in the house may let it swim through....

Thanks for letting me comment.

Chris

[Early Riser]

Chris,

Very good post. I couldn't agree more.

[bassNspear]

Spearing is not 100%, unless your throwing at everything

[terrible_fisherman]

It says 100% of fish chosen to be harvested. I agree this isnt exactly correct because we miss sometimes though:).

[Early Riser]

Good point terrible fisherman, I did think about that. I have certainly missed a few

[bassNspear]

Everyone is going ot miss a few, takes a man to say he did!!

[Early Riser]

When I started I had a spear that was too light. If you didn't release it just right it would plane out and not travel straight. The spears we use now are made by Jeremy Kraemer from Melrose MN. They drop and throw straight as an arrow. The long tapered barbs penetrate and hold fish very well.

I just got back from his shop to pick up two spears I had ordered about a year ago. They are for our kids and will last as functional heirlooms for generations.

I stopped in at Art Barbarians in Rogers on the way back. They run a fantastic shop there. Chris likes to talk about anything related to hunting or fishing. They have a good selection of Les Kouba darkhouse prints and will incorporate a retired decoy or two in the framing for added interest and nostalgia.

By the way, the lakes up to Sauk Rapids are just barely skimed over. I heard tales today of folks heading to northern MN to spear where they have been walking on small lakes and bays for a week or so. We are headed up to the border country Thursday to start the season on Friday the 1st. Good luck to all, whenever you get out!

[bassNspear]

how mych r they? how many tines are on them?

[Early Riser]

Bass-n-spear, he makes a 7 and a 9 tine. For competition he also has made a 6 and an 8 tine spear.

The "economy model" spear he makes in 7 or 9 tine is $160.00. It is has a hollow coper end which provides some bouancy in the handle, so when throwing out the handle doesn't fall and pull the head of the spear off the target. The business end of the spear has a heavy turned head. The tines feature long beautiful brass key barbs seemlessly welded on.

His upper grade spear is 300.00 which has a blued shaft and tines, brass barbs and a South American wood handle for bouancy. You can order other exotic wood handles and other features which increase the price. I saw one in his shop today that was all brass with a granite tine gaurd and an exotic grey wood handle.

Jeremy fashions his spears after two Melrose area blacksmiths, Dillo Hinnenkamp and Joe June who made about 800 spears in the 1940s and 50s. The two would practice by dropping potatoes down the outer corners of the spearing hole and try to spear them with the center tine of their spears. The two came up with the turned weighted center, which arguably the best designed spear to date. Lee Moening, also from the area, made a similar spear of high quality, although I don't know if he is still making any spears. The "Dillo Spear," the Moening spear, and now the Kraemer spear are functional works of folk art which are highly prized possesions within familes who own them.

If you would like to contact Mr. Kraemer you can go the National Fish Decoy Association web page and go the the link, "Member Carvers" and click on his page. Check out some of the decoy carver pages as well. There is updated information on there about the location and dates of all the local decoy shows.

[Mike89]

Jeremy's spears start around $160. and you can only set your own limit. He's got some of the best spears made in my book. He makes 7 & 9 tiner's. I have the seven and love it. I started with a five so I don't like the size of the 9's. Next friday, with the good lord willing, I'll be on the ice with my spear!! Good luck all!!

Mike

[Central Bassman]

Spearing ROCKS!!!! I cant wait for some ice so i can go and see some big pike!!!!

[bassNspear]

Do you have the link for that site? I am looking at getting a new one, and i want to make sure it is something that i really like. I have had tons of spears, and its tuff to finda good one.

Can i please get that link?

[Early Riser]

Bass-n-spear, Type in "National Fish Decoy Assoiciaton" into your browser and click on the top site that comes up. You can also go to the Minnesota Darkhouse and Angling Association web page and access it through their links. If you still need contact information for Mr. Kraemer after trying, let me know.