Paver patio installation....

[311Hemi]

Ok.....I just brought home 600 sq ft of patio pavers and am starting the installation process. I am currently digging out the area for the patio. He is what I am currently planning:

-digging out enough existing dirt to allow for 6" of class 5 and 1" of courus sand. Do I need to worry about ants using this setup? I have read the crushed limestone is someetimes used?

-digging out 6"-1' beyond where the actual patio will lay to give some space for installation of the edge. Also I have read that I should install an edge of some sort (don't know much about this, but I know my dad did not put in a actual plastic/metal edge around his patio he installed and it turned out great, just packed black dirt around it)? Is this needed?

Any other recomendations while I get started on this project.

[Abrams]

From my experience you don't need to allow for that much sand. I've used around 4-5" of class 5 and a thin layer of sand. Depending on what type of blocks I also added sand to the top and broomed in between the spaces.

I've also used and would recomend the paver edging.

[311Hemi]

Also, half of this patio is being installed on top of an existing cement patio (in perfect condtion). I plan on only putting 1/2" of sand over that before laying the pavers.

Also, do I need to lay down landscaping fabric?

Last, part of the patio will be a circle with a fire pit in the middle. Does anyone have any recomendations on how to build that fire pit? I.E. do I need a metal surround inside of the block? Should I purchase a certain kind of block for the pit itself?

[joe_stack20]

answering your question to using plastic edging around your patio. Definately use some sort of paver restraint...what i currectly sell is a 8 ft ridgid pc of edging that requires staking into the ground using 10"spikes. With out a paver restraint your pavers over a period of time will start to "Float" apart. the restraint keeps everything tight and uniform.

As for the sand that should be used..I recommend using a thin ( 1-1.5") of granite sand. Ants completely hate it. i would use it underneathe the pavers as well as swept on top of them as well. Good Luck with your project...its very rewarding when its all done!

[Abrams]

No need to put down fabric with almost 6" of class 5 and sand.

[311Hemi]

Someone just brought this up to me, but do you think I need to worry about the pavers over the non-cement slab side pounding/setteling in futher than the paver over the cement?

They also said they were not sure 1/2" of sand over the cement was enough for drainage.

Joe, can I buy the granite sand by the truckload?

Thanks for the info so far!!!

[joe_stack20]

As far as i know you can...you might wanna call Avon Agrilime..they have all of the info you will need. by the way i sell it even by the 5 gallon bucket full.

[311Hemi]

Thanks,

John

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[IFallsRon]

Most people I know who have done this use crushed granite for a base.

[LABS4ME]

We install close to 30,000 sf of pavers on avg. every year. We use a 3/4" steel conduit pipe as our screed pipe. We've found that 1" causes to much floating, and a 1/2" may not be enough to compensate for changes in the limestone. The purpose of the sand is to "level" the limestone bed for the paver. Your class-5 is the actual base.

You don't need any sand on top of you cement patio... if it's in good shape, use pl400 to glue them right to the surface. Then sweep your sand in the voids to match the rest of the patio after it sets up. You will need to shoot some elevations to make sure your pavers over the concrete and the ones on the traditional base match up.

Granite sand works very good as does plain old washed sand. We generally use regualar sand for the bed and sweep in granite sand to fill the voids before and after compaction.

As stated above, a good quality plastic paver edging is a good idea for the patio in the long term.

Have fun with your project...

Good Luck!

Ken

[LABS4ME]

And as far as the fire ring goes... you can buy a steel ring at Hedberg's or Gerten's. It makes the installation much quicker than stone or block... I think it looks better too! If you go to Gertens, check out the paver work there... We've been contracted to do all their paver work over the last 10 years. They have to be up to 120,000 (sf) now... You can get lots of ideas just walking around and looking at the different styles, patterns and colors.

Good Luck!

Ken

[311Hemi]

OK...just a little confusion I have. Should I be using the class 5, or limestone? Is it either or (or both)?

And then on top I use the sand?

[LABS4ME]

"Class-5" in the metro area is just crushed limestone that is 3/4" minus... half dozen to one, 6 to another...

and your sand gets screeded on top after you bring the class-5 to 100% compaction...

Good Luck!

Ken

[311Hemi]

aahh....ok.

One last question (at least for today!!!)....if I use PL400 for the concrete area should I be using just a single line that runs perpendicular with the grade of the current patio so I don't trap any water?

And thanks again for the info everyone!!

[LABS4ME]

correct, run it with the grade.

Good Luck!

Ken

[burl]

When i installed one of my patios i used the crushed concrete for base,compacted and wetted in with about one inch of sand on top.The patios have been there for about four years and have not moved at all.For edging check out some of the bullet nose inter lock blocks if you want a raised edge or the plastic for the flush edge.Burl.

[311Hemi]

Thanks for all the info guys.

I was trying to get some leveling done tonight and found out that the current concrete patio is not perfectly flat, so I don't think I will be able to glue the block directly to it. I unfortunatley am going to have to lay sand over the top of it so I can get the minor variances out of it and make sure it's perectly flat.

Will .5" be enough and will it provide proper drainage?

Also, is there any downfall to a random laying of paver? I have 3 different size pavers...one is a large rectangle, then a square the size if the smaller side of the large rectangle, and then a small rectangle that two of them makes up on of the squares. I can get the measurments.

Any thoughts?

[LABS4ME]

We do random patterns all the time. The only real trick is to make sure your pavers stay on "check" (seams not matching up) as much as possible. After you get going it will become second nature while you are laying them. I will try to take a pic and post one we just finished yesterday with the random pattern.

Good luck!

Ken

[311Hemi]

Great...thanks labs!!

Any thoughts on the sand/concrete? You guys ever install like that?

Here are the pavers I picked up.

And here is a pic of the area I am putting in the patio, and the concrete slab that I will be laying over. The circle area around where the fire pit will be is not totally dug out in this pic.

[LABS4ME]

Looks good so far... It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks to me like the threshold for the door is even with the concrete... You won't be able to lay pavers on the concrete if this is the case. If this is the case, the pavers will be 2" higher than the door... You seem to have plenty of pitch on the patio so if you have room under the door, it should work out fine. Make sure you put some expansion felt between the pavers and the foundation under the door to minimize upward pressure if the slab should move when there is frost in the ground. The slab looks small enought that you could remove it easily with a couple hours of jack hammer rental or score it deeply every 2' with a chop saw and bust it with a sledge hammer or use a skid loader to remove it...

Here are a couple of examples of the random pattern, circle pattern and a steel fire pit to give you an idea and some direction.

random pattern going to a circle "reading patio" w/ granite steps and walls

Fire pit patio w/ granite sitting wall

Good Luck!

Ken

[zelek]

I am very interested in this post. We are planning a paver patio and are still trying to decide if we should tackle the project ourself or hire a landscaping business. We are leaning towards hiring someone but have seen alot of variation in our estimates. Any input on what a fair and reasonable , per square foot rate would be for a very basic project? One business pitched a square foot price but then came back later and added an extra thousand dollars for delivery, equipment rental, etc. We are located in midwest part of MN near lake country.

Thanks for your insight on this.

[LABS4ME]

The proposal you recieve and accept should be a hard price, no fluctuations in the final price over what was estimated, unless their are unforseen variables or changes requested by you.

Finished paver work (walk and patio size) generally is $12-16.00 a square foot based on how much is being laid and exactly what is being done.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Moose]

I've got a question on the granite sand. I have a patio I put in 10 years ago I have no movement or problems except for ANTS I live in the Anoka Sand Plane area and have boulder retaining walls around it with dragons blood sedum in the walls and beds which also have tons of ants right before the sedum flowers. My question is can I sweep granite sand into my exisiting patio to help with the ants? Also can I sprinkle the sand into the beds to help with those ants? Thanks for any replies, Moose

[joe_stack20]

In response to the granite sand/ant problem...It should do the trick for your problem. I might even take it a step further and find a joint bonding agent that you can mix in with your granite sand, which then in a way "crusts" over the joints you have and should detour ants! just my 2 cents

[311Hemi]

Labs, you know of any issues using Class 5 - recycle instead of class 5 - limestone? The lady at Frador said they compact the same.....but I know a lot of people say the limestone (and as you mentioned earlier). The class 5 recycle is half the price.