Bird and Gun Intro

[jblabsnduck]

I bet you didn't see that one coming????????

[gspman]

Well, I learned from a pro trainer the way Brittman described. I'd go train with the pro on the weekends and then do what I could on my own during the week. It's a great way to learn plus I got to see national caliber trial dogs do their thing, ride Tennessee Walkers, handle from horseback against the pro and all the other fun stuff. I did that for 2 or 3 years and learned a ton. But I didn't have kids back then and had lots of free time.

With 3 kids I'd never be able to do that now. I think for many the only viable option is a pro trainer. I actually used the same pro for my current dog because I knew there would be no way I could field train the dog myself. It's good to be able to visit or at least talk to the pro to see how he/she does things so you can do the same when certain similar situations come up while you are handling your dog while hunting or during dog games. They can tell you things about your dog that you'd never see because you don't have the years of experience training/handling 100's of dogs. Also many pro's will be able to put your dog on wild birds during training. Pen raised birds and pigeons can take a dog only so far. Wild birds are what really make a bird dog. How many of us can put our dog on dozen's of wild birds in the off season? I'd guess very few.

Anyways if you have the time to do it the way Brittman describes then by all means go for it. If not then don't hesitate taking your pooch to a good pro.

gspman

[LABS4ME]

I guess the "violin" perspective is still a fairly accurate one in the fact that a "pro" is still doing the training. The difference is a human is able to retain what they are taught in each lesson and use, practice, and refine it until the next lesson. You can not reason with a dog as they do not hold that ability. You can't promise them anything for completing a session, you can't threaten them with a grounding if they don't, you can't talk them through a pout, or demand concentration. That is where the "pro" having the dog long term differs from once a week lessons. They will teach the dog day in and day out the ins and outs of what they need to learn. If we could sit a dog down and show them what we expect and tell them to work on that and that only till next week, the analogy would hold water, but because the dog learns solely from repitition and positive and negative re-inforcement it is a much slower and time consuming process. But the fact remains a "pro" was used to teach and cultivate a student to bring them to a level of finish as each deems fit.

Can it be done without a pro? In most cases yes. Is there anything wrong with being honest with yourself and asking if using a pro will get you the results you are hoping to pull out of your dog? Nope. In all actuallity, there is another aspect that gets overlooked and that is "in fairness" to the dog. A pro holds no emotional ties to your dog. They are less subject to get frustrated on the "bad" sessions, or to punish a dog for not doing a task as they are teaching it. I can admit in all the dogs I've trained, I'm hardest on my own and I can even admit I've lost my temper when I felt I wasn't getting out of them the level of performance I was looking for. When I took in dogs for training, it was a job. You as the trainer are expected to bring the dog to an agreed upon level of performance in a reasonable amount of time, but with your own dog, your expectations are usually higher, sometimes to high. The dog is at the pro to learn and practice it's craft, this would be equal to the hour of violin lessons, but it is still up to you the owner to refine what it has been taught, this would be the same as the days at home practicing the violin.

A more proper analogy may be going to a tech school. You go there to learn your craft, but refine it once you leave. You can learn as an apprentice from someone who is trying to teach you while they work (ie: teaching while hunting), get frustrated as you make mistakes, and end up taking twice as long to learn what you need to learn to go out on your own.

I will be looking into starting a new dog in the next couple years, and even though I have enough experience to train my own dog, I am going to strongly consider bring it to a pro. I know my limitations now.... time is short running a business and raising a family. I cannot give my dog enough training time to bring them to a level that I expect of my dogs. In the past, I enjoyed knowing it was the fruits of my labor I watched as I hunted behind MY dogs, but since I've learned to appreciate them no matter if they are mine or someone elses, pro or amatuer trained. The beauty is in watching a well trained dog go about his business. It matters not how they got there, but that they did.

Good Luck with the pooch MetroJoe, hope she excels in the field, and good luck to you Brittman... may your dogs continue to bring about gratification each and every outing! I think that in itself shows we all are looking to get to the same finish line, but are using different paths to get there!

Good Luck!

Ken

[wolfman-k]

I've always enjoyed reading your posts, Labs, and appriciate how you break things down so they are easy to comprehend. I have made the decision to take my 13 week-old Lab to a Pro, because I have neither the time nor expertise to properly train my new hunting buddy. He's got the basics down somewhat, but I know that after a month under the watchful eye of a professional, my puppy will learn things I can't teach. Thanks again for all your insight and common sense.

[fishnhooks]

Thanks Metrojoe for starting this post, I thought this was a very interesting. I appreciate the different point of views that everyone had. Just wanted to say thanks to all for giving me something else besides work to think of

"hooks"

[jblabsnduck]

I will say this about you guys that take your dogs to a pro trainer. Your money WILL be wasted if you do not follow and inforce everything your dog has learned from the trainer. It only takes once to get out of habbit what the dog has learned if you allow your dog not to mind you. It is trained(reason why you sent him/her to a trainer) so make the dog obey the commands at all times. Let it slip once the dog will think it could do it again and there goes your money if you let that happen.

P.S just because you send your dog to a trainer don't think that dog is going to be field trial ready(unless that is what you are paying for) Most trainers train dogs just to give them the idea of what they should be doing and how to do it. Field trial dogs take a LOT of time and training.

Also don't brag about your dog until you have seen mine work that I trained myself. You will realize that you wasted your money.(sorry, inside joke to a guy that reads these post)

[brittman]

LABS4ME: Maybe some labs do not have the ability to learn, condition, and retain, but I am pretty sure Brittany pups do. You are simply incorrect. Dogs do need persuation and a human voice can do much to up a dog's tempo or shut them down. I can not speak about retriever training, especially for precision field trials - but my observations are:

1) Brits (other versatile breeds?) do learn and intuition is a big part of being a good dog. A great pheasant dog (pointer) is not told where to go by whistle, voice or other means. He (she) figures out by trial and error, training, etc... how to do this. A trainer works to develop this confidence ... and control the dog within their comfort zone. Range is partially controlled by training, but breeding also comes into play. I typically like my pointing dog within 30 - 70 yards - that is why I love Britts and buy them from breeders that are breeding for walking hunters. Other pointing dog owners want big range - they chose other breeds or field trial stock Britts.

I am also not so sure that I want my dog exposed to one or two birds everyday over a period of 4 - 6 weeks. IMHO it makes the birds and dog to predictable. Repetition is important - but I am also hearing (from pro trainers) that dogs do get board with the same thing day after day ... need to break up the routine, etc.... Dog's do "pout" and a good trainer can ....

2) Growing up our neighbor trialed labs across the country. Living in the South, my next door neighbor trained and owned a female field champion lab. Sometimes I thought these dogs were scared to move without being told to by whistle. A style I did not desire - but at the same time I appreciated what it took to get a dog to this level.

So I will back off - it you want a polished, e-collar controlled, robotic retriever - a pro is the best and probably only way to go.

Rambling again - jblabsnducks: agree the best trained dog will quickly lose ground if no effort is put forth to keep them active.

[metrojoe]

Alltough this wasn’t quite the direction I was heading with my post, it turned into a really good topic. My interest in bird hunting or hunting with dogs, actually started with the purchase of our first dog. We(wife and 2 boys)were mainly looking for a family pet. We came across a young Black Lab/Springer Spaniel mix that I and the family really liked. He was a rescue and had some issues, but over all seemed to be a great dog. Once we had him a few days I realized that he was a natural retriever that had a never say quite attitude. So, I thought maybe I could train him to hunt. I did some research and purchased a couple books and read them cover to cover. I quickly realized that I may have bitten off more than I could chew. I worked on obedience and retrieving daily but he was still lacking the exsposure to birds and the gun. Anyways, with my limited ability to do a proper bird and gun intro, I believe I got lucky with this dog. Something I decided I wasn’t going to take a chance on with my next dog.

Also, my oldest son has been playing violin for about 7 years and I may pay for his lessons, drive him to his lessons, and remind him to practice . But it’s all him. I can’t take credit for any of that talent.

[TimR]

You can bet I'm going to remember you said this when my "did-my-best-to-self-train-my-first-hunting-dog" releases himself at the shot, shakes slough water on you, and tries to steal your brit's birds.

Grin.

Tim

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So I will back off - it you want a polished, e-collar controlled, robotic retriever - a pro is the best and probably only way to go.

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[metrojoe]

Quote:

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P.S just because you send your dog to a trainer don't think that dog is going to be field trial ready(unless that is what you are paying for) Most trainers train dogs just to give them the idea of what they should be doing and how to do it. Field trial dogs take a LOT of time and training.

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The trials I'm talking about are for puppies younger than 15 or 16 months. I believe there are judges scoring, but there are no real expectations. Just supposed to be a lot of fun and a great way to get you and your dog in the field on some birds.

[brittman]

He could use an e-collar. I will pay half!

Sitting still (lack there of) is his only real fault.

[brittman]

Actually I can going to put one on you - to stop your yelling at him

[metrojoe]

My trainers philosphy:

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We believe that every dog is a unique individual. When you bring your dog to Wings & Whistles, we structure our training program around your dog's personality. We are dedicated to training through positive reinforcement and repetition. In that way, your dog will eagerly develop to its fullest potential.

We accomplish this through scheduled sessions with you and your dog which will help you gain the confidence you need to handle your dog in all situations. We firmly believe that working with you, as owner, is just as important as training your dog.

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After talking to a few different trainers this was one of the major factors in my decision to go with this trainer.

[LABS4ME]

Britt...

O.K. we got the clue, you DO NOT think any dog should go to a pro. In a perfect world maybe they wouldn't, in our world they are a viable way to get a "finished" bird dog that you will be able to use and enjoy for many many years.

As far as your post about labs, it's obvious you have never hunted behind a well trained lab. Remarks about labs having the ability to learn, condition and retain are really off base teetering on humorous. Who said anything about not being able to use your voice to change the tempo of a dog during training... I was pointing out that you CAN NOT reason with a dog, you can not sit them down and explain what you are going to work on or have a discussion of what they did wrong.

Again your ignorance with labs shows through when you state that labs are controlled by whistles. Even the best field champions are not solely controlled by whistles... if your neighbor had a cowering field champion lab, Unsure of what to do without being commanded by a whistle, I'm glad he was able to manage that. Confidence, style and perserverence are major parts of your scores in judging each and every series your dog is running, so if "he had dogs that were afraid of doing anything without being told by whistle", he managed to pull the rug over some judges eyes. They aren't obedience trials... They're field trials! The dog still needs a ton of natural instincts and it needs to show through, it's not all based on training.

If you think I have polished, e-collared, robotic dogs, make a date to go out hunting with me sometime. The male I have now, (while having enjoyed some limited succes trialing in his younger days), pheasant hunts WITHOUT a collar and I rarely ever use a whistle (except during handling on a cripple) and I rarely even use my voice. He ranges 20-30 yards and checks in quite often. And by the way... I don't tell him where to go look for birds... He is animated in all his activities not just hunting. I also have an older female who has NEVER even seen a collar, and hunts almost to close. She is the epitome of a well mannered, well trained dog. Her biggest fault has always been she is slow and methodical and almost to laid back. I am thinking of getting her therapy dog certificate so I can take her to hospitals to visit sick kids. I rarely have to re-call her also when out hunting. I can sneak into fields in South Dakota in December and actually work up birds that have been continuously shot at all fall as I do not need to correct my dogs. Oh and by the way, my male, though mostly amateur trained, has been to pros to help work through "bumps" in the road during his trialing years, and went down south 2 winters, but he has yet to be turned into a "robot"........ I'm sure a lot of pros would love to see your quote:

"it you want a polished, e-collar controlled, robotic retriever - a pro is the best and probably only way to go."

As far as looking at breedings from which you want to buy a pup, I agree with you that is very important. I no longer trial so my breedings and those that I look at to possibly be a future dog, have been tempered greatly over the years. Hunting dogs should be bought from people breeding hunting dogs! Trial dogs can and do make good hunters, but the abilities and desires of these dogs are sometimes more than a "typical" dog owner can handle.

And it matters not if your dog was pro or amatuer trained... they indeed WILL lose ground if the training is not maintained. If I tried to run a trial with my old guy, he would be bounced out on his ear... but as with any athelete, as the end draws near, it's time to play for fun and not competition. He still retains a great portion of what he he was trained and hunting with him is a pleasure, but he has definite hitches in his giddy-up that I let slide because of his age, his loss of hearing and the fact that it really doesn't make that much difference as I have no one with a clip board judging us any longer!

So in closing this long post, do not lump pro trained dogs in as a group of cookie cutter robots unable to think for themselves and don't think amatuer dogs far excell one that was finished by a pro.... enjoy and revel in what you've accomplished but understand that each person doesn't need that sense of accomplishment to enjoy their dog.

Good Luck!

Ken

[brittman]

Oh I knew the lab comment would strike a cord is some. Too many loyal lab oweners out there not too. I could not relate to your comments and thus speculated it might be breed related. Britts are much softer than the average lab - thus "reasoning" in a sense is one way they are trained.

I am glad to see you are hunting your lab in this manner and have no doubt he hunts well. The average lab must also being doing OK in the field - thus their popularity. I would suspect the majortiy of labs that I see in the field wear the e-collar

When my main Britt and I are in the grove - we also do not talk to each other except in the truck. No whistles, no voices, nothing....

Actually I am glad to see SOME labs on e-collars and with pro trainers - that way they are hunting with their owners and not heading off in my direction when they hear gunfire, etc...

This all started when I commented to the orginal poster that he was sending his dog off for gun fire training. Not sure I said NEVER use a pro.

Again - at least try train your own dog. If you just can not (I have a tough time with the time arguement) especially if you lack patience or often over react physically - by all means put your dogs in the hands of a good pro.

[Ray Esboldt]

OK. I'm living this scenario right now. I'm training my own dog, one of them lab creatures. Here's the pro's and con's as I see them.

Pro:

1) I know my dogs habits, attitude, and body language. I know how to make her do things the way I want.

2) It's very rewarding. She learns, I'm happy. Like seeing yours kids walk and talk.

Cons:

1) Exposure to gunfire in the cities. If I lived in Minneapolis, this wouldn't be a problem. But try getting your dog to sit on gunfire when you can't shoot even a starter pistol in your yard.

2) Exposure to live birds. There isn't much cover or water in my backyard, so live bird work there is just a chicken chase for the dog.

3) Same looking training grounds on days where time is tight. There ain't any hiding spots left in the backyard.

It's really a much longer list on both sides, and I have found work arounds for all the Cons. However, all considered, I will make use of professional training next time around. But, on the same note, what's wrong with having a well disciplined dog that's a good hunting partner? I know I'll have that. I don't need a champion, I need a good citizen and someone willing to get wet on a cold day.