Valley Creek

[BrianZ]

Hello! I'm looking for some info on Valley Creek that runs through Afton. What I'm wondering is if it's legal to access the stream from St. Croix Trail (Hwy 95). I get conflicting stories. I spoke to a guy at one of the DNR fisheries offices and he didn't think it was legal to access there but wasn't totally sure. I was also wondering about accessing it at Putnam Blvd. and was wondering if that was legal. Is it legal to access a designated trout stream from any road that crosses it? Is that considered a road right of way? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

[mallardnwalleye]

I don't know, but do know from second hand info that the fishing for trout is really good. I also know there should be better access.

There is a statute that the state has a right away, easement,or ownership XXX ft. away from the center of a road.

If anyone can site the rule that would be awesome.

[Pikestabber77]

Landowners along the stream are very protective of the stream (constructing elaborate setups of barb wire, fencing, ect.) to keep you from wading in the stream. The property owners can get crazy and downright hostile at times.

[BrianZ]

I've heard the landowners can be pretty bad. Heard stories of a guy that threatens to sick his dog on you and he carries a gun. That's alright, I'll have my gun with me too. If they have fences and barbed wire across the stream that is illegal. If I find any of that I'll either report it or cut it down. I don't plan on going much upstream from the HWY 95 bridge anyway.

[Ufatz]

Instead of packing your Uzi why not take a camera. If you see illegal devices meant to block or dissuade access take photos and then take them to DNR. And before you destroy someone else s property, consider the fact that you might face arrest and a fine for doing so.

Remain calm and rational at all times. It's what good trout fishermen do.

[mallardnwalleye]

Quote:

Remain calm and rational at all times. It's what good trout fishermen do.

Unfortunately it's not what some riparian owners have done.

If the DNR and CO's had anything to em they would walk the stream as fishermen and arrest those that harass them and also remove any barbed wire or other encumbrances.

It really shouldn't be up to Joe Public to have to jump through hoops or be bullied, to fish in public waters.

[Ufatz]

But maybe "Joe Public" could help by calling the nearest CO or the Dept. and letting them know of a land owner who is stepping over the line. The CO's can't be everyplace all the time.

Take some pictures. Do some emails. What the heck....everybody has time to blow off in these forums about every little annoyance. Make it count-send in the CO's.

[BrianZ]

When I talked to the guy with the DNR I told him about these fences that go across the stream that I had seen when I was there about 2 weeks ago. What he told me is that they have confronted the land owners about it in the past but the landowners always come up with some excuse for it like saying the fence is there to keep their cattle in. Yet they don't have any cattle. I also talked to someone at Belwin Conservancy because Valley Creek runs through there also. I mentioned the fences to her and all she said is that the fences are very old. Old or not they shouldn't be there. Under Minnesota law if a fence that crosses a stream or river prevents navigation of it or if it causes a safety hazard is illegal. Person(s) responsible for it can be prosecuted. If I see anything I will take pictures of it and report it. After that if nothing is done then I'll have to try a different plan. What I'm most worried about is if landowners have put stuff in the water that you can't see such as booby traps. I certainly wouldn't want to step on a bear trap or something like that. The guy with the DNR also told me that someone has a sign along the stream that says "If You Value Your Life...STOP". Maybe I'm wrong but I would think that would be considered a terroristic threat to anyone that see's it.

[mallardnwalleye]

I was going to modify my statement -

Quote:

If the DNR and CO's had anything to em they would walk the stream as fishermen and arrest those that harass them and also remove any barbed wire or other encumbrances

. and tell you to document and inform them as they may not be aware of the problem.

It sounds like they are aware and haven't done much.

I would legally access the stream and fish it keeping your feet wet at all times. I would take pics /video and post them on here as well as send them to the DNR. I would also have Washington County Sherriff on speed dial as they are the ones to go to. They are solid balanced guys/gals that will help you if you are within the law and someone has really stepped over it.

Good luck!

[outdoors247]

Quote:

Under Minnesota law if a fence that crosses a stream or river prevents navigation of it or if it causes a safety hazard is illegal. Person(s) responsible for it can be prosecuted. If I see anything I will take pictures of it and report it.

The key word in navigable waters. Most trout streams are not navigable. I'm not saying it's a good thing but that may be why they are not removed.

Quote:

The guy with the DNR also told me that someone has a sign along the stream that says "If You Value Your Life...STOP". Maybe I'm wrong but I would think that would be considered a terroristic threat to anyone that see's it.

That's a little over the top. I would think the local authorities would have issues with this. Did you mention this to the local sheriffs office?

A funny side note. There's a pasture along Hay Creek south of Red Wing that has a funny sign. Something along the lines of "You better be able to make it across the pasture in 4.5 seconds because the bull can do it in 4.0 seconds". Now that's funny!

[Slabasaurus]

The key word in navigable waters. Most trout streams are not navigable. I'm not saying it's a good thing but that may be why they are not removed.

[BrianZ]

I haven't talked to anyone at the Sheriff's office. But if I happen to see that sign I will be calling them. I've seen that sign by Hay Creek. That is pretty funny but not intimidating.

[outdoors247]

Quote:

I believe most if not all designated trout streams in MN are technically "navigable waterways"

Here's a snippet from the legal dictionary

Yeah, that's a tough one. Some are very questionable at best. But I hear you, it can be done with the right canoe.

And yes, the bull pasture was a joke, but the sign is there. You aren't the only one, I don't even like walking through a pasture with cows, just ask my mom but that's another story for another day.

[mallardnwalleye]

Quote:

The key word in navigable waters. Most trout streams are not navigable.

Quote:

Under Minnesota law if a fence that crosses a stream or river prevents navigation of it or if it causes a safety hazard is illegal. Person(s) responsible for it can be prosecuted.

Your quoting two separate statements that look alike but aren't.

The general test is if you can float a canoe in it is navigable.

I would disagree with the statement that most trout streams are not navigable.

The old Hay Creek bull sign. Fond memories of fishing it in the early to mid 90's. Man that stream used to put out the trout -I can still visualize fishing a nymph cross stream on a bend and getting a trout on 8 consecutive casts.

I wonder how that stream recovered from the "kill" there many years ago.

Brian,

Make sure all your ps and qs are in order and that you follow the letter of the law. Go forward, document and report all violations, harassments and illegal activity. Please let the Sherriff and DNR handle it. If they don't please let us know.

Good luck to you, my thoughts are with you.

[BrianZ]

This is directly from the Minnesota DNR's HSOforum.

Is a DNR permit required to build a fence across the wetland or stream on my property?

What are the regulations regarding putting a fence along my property into the lake to prevent people from trespassing onto my property?

In general, no DNR public waters work permit (application available under DNR Division of Waters forms) is required for the placement of fences in or across public waters or public waters wetlands. Landowners who fence their waters or shorelands can be prosecuted under the Water Safety Act (Minnesota Statutes 86B) and/or the Public Nuisance Law (Minnesota Statutes 609.74) if their fences obstruct navigation or pose a threat to public safety.

Also, the fishing on Hay Creek is pretty good. They're mostly small but you can catch some decent size ones in the right places. I heard about the kill that happened there some years ago. I think it had something to do with people dumping some type of chemicals in the water. In the pasture area there is a 12" to 16" protected slot and can only use artificial lures or flies. But I know of a place upstream from the pasture where there are no restrictions.

[outdoors247]

Quote:

The general test is if you can float a canoe in it is navigable.

I would disagree with the statement that most trout streams are not navigable.

You are correct. I shouldn't have said most. I'm a newbie at trout fishing and was just thinking about the streams around me. I have no first hand knowledge of Valley Creek, just info told to me second hand. I totally agree that there should be no fences in public waterways but there is a lot of private land that doesn't get seen.

Good luck to everyone next weekend. Hopefully this melting snow doesn't blow out the streams next weekend but I'm afraid it's not going to be pretty.

[mallardnwalleye]

This is directly from the Minnesota DNR's HSOforum.

Is a DNR permit required to build a fence across the wetland or stream on my property?

What are the regulations regarding putting a fence along my property into the lake to prevent people from trespassing onto my property?

In general, no DNR public waters work permit (application available under DNR Division of Waters forms) is required for the placement of fences in or across public waters or public waters wetlands. Landowners who fence their waters or shorelands can be prosecuted under the Water Safety Act (Minnesota Statutes 86B) and/or the Public Nuisance Law (Minnesota Statutes 609.74) if their fences obstruct navigation or pose a threat to public safety.

Also, the fishing on Hay Creek is pretty good. They're mostly small but you can catch some decent size ones in the right places. I heard about the kill that happened there some years ago. I think it had something to do with people dumping some type of chemicals in the water. In the pasture area there is a 12" to 16" protected slot and can only use artificial lures or flies. But I know of a place upstream from the pasture where there are no restrictions.

So you are saying that any private fence over the water is illegal?

Correct?

I never fished upstream from that pasture and the bridge as the water looked too small and a little cloudy. Slayed em just below it though.

[BrianZ]

I think the DNR is saying if the fence obstructs navigation or poses a public safety risk then the fence is illegal. The wording seems a bit weird.

[Bass Whacker]

I used to fish a couple small stretches of that stream on my lunch breaks when I worked in Afton. I never had any issues with land owners and didn't see any fences, but I never strayed to far from were I accessed. Were about are the fences? Could you just cross them by throwing a rug over the top and climbing over, assuming its barb wire this fence is made of?

[BrianZ]

The fences I seen are where Stagecoach Trail crosses the creek. There's also one where the creek comes out of the Belwin Conservancy. Where did you access the creek at? Did you have much luck?

[Bass Whacker]

I fished right at St Croix trail mostly, but I also got on at some private property just off stage coach once. All I caught was chubs on the private property so I never went back. At the road I got one little brown and more chubs. Right were it dumps into the Croix all I caught was bass over the years, but I saw 2 big trout take off up the stream while pulling in with the boat once. Like I said I spent very little time on the stream I was just trying to figure out were to avoid if I ever go back.

[ekatz37]

From the DNR HSOforum

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/watermgmt_section/pwpermits/waterlaws.html:

What are public rights?

Where the public is a riparian landowner, such as a public road abutting the water or at a public access, the public has riparian rights (see: Flynn v. Beisel, 257 Minn. 531, 102 N.W .2d 284 [1960].).

Additional information

Minnesota case law has established that a public road abutting a body of water gives the public riparian rights to the water. Riparian rights exist whether or not the lake is navigable or public and regardless of who owns the bed. Riparians are entitled to exercise their rights over the entire surface of the lake. One riparian cannot keep others from using all of the lake. Where access to a "wetland" is available from a public road, Minnesota Statutes Section 103G.235 provides the following: "In order to protect the public health or safety, local units of government may establish by ordinance restrictions upon public access to any wetlands from city, county or township roads which abut wetlands." In all other cases (i.e., state or federal roads abutting "wetlands" or any public road abutting a "public water"), the public has the riparian right of access.

The question always becomes, whether or not the public portion of the road abuts the surface of the water. In this case (since it is a highway), you should have legal access to the stream.

[mallardnwalleye]

Valley Creek for the majority of it's course is a public stream - If you keep your feet wet. Please see link http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/watermgmt_section/pwi/maps.html

Look under Washington County and the public accessible area is in bold blue.

I believe that you need 33 ft. from the center of the road to access a water way.

Please don't rely on that info as it may be for state roads only.

Good luck and enjoy OUR public waters.

[BrianZ]

Thanks for the info guys. That definitely helps. I think I'll try it Saturday if it isn't raining too hard. Probably going to Hay Creek in Red Wing on Sunday.