Deer Management Meetings Announced

[Scoot]

If the G&F's primary motivation was money-related, I'm pretty sure you would not hear this said. However, I'm with LMITOUT- I'm skeptical that's what is the main motivation for this. It certainly could be, but I don't think so. JMO.

[harvey lee]

I highly doubt it was money related.

Not that many years ago at the Twist of Fate hunt I help out with every year, the top dog and a few others from the Game and Fish were in attendance one day. I asked the fellow why they did not offer the extra tags for a few years to more NR hunters as they could create more revenue, his reply, the resident hunters would rather that those tags went to the resident people even thoufh they had all they wanted and the Game and Fish does not need that extra revenue. maybe he said that to blow me off, then maybe not.

They could also cut the guide or outfitter license's to NR hunters as suggested above but that would not free up that many licenses for the resident hunters, very small percentage.

I would think that until the deer herd increases, many including myself will simply not get to hunt quite as often as we use to in the glory days. I think we all knew that those high tag years were not going to stay like that.

No matter what they do, it is not going to free up enough tags for a high percentage to get to hunt every year, simply cannot happen, not enough deer to go around right now. As the herd grow's, the tags will increase and one will just have to be patient.

[Scoot]

Well said, Harvey. Patience is not a strength of mine!!!

[KEN W]

They aren't short of cash.They have said they do not want appropriations from the legislature.

They have stated that if they go to 1 deer per person and force bow hunters to make a choice,that they could increase the chances for rifle hunters to draw a tag.Plus that is the fairest change to make.They did not say how many.But it must be enough to have them say that.Especially when they also said that cutting NR tags,eliminating the youth season,and most other suggestions would make no difference.

[harvey lee]

Well said, Harvey. Patience is not a strength of mine!!!

MIne either Scoot but what else can one do.

If they do a cut here and a cut there, they will upset many hunters one way or the other.

If they cut the over the counter archery tags, it would upset far more residents than non residents.

They could free up some tags for rifle hunters by dropping the over the counter archery tags and go to a drawing but then they will have a new group of hunters upset with the G&F.

No matter what they do or if they do nothing, there will still be a group of hunters not happy with the change or leaving the system as is.

I see no cure for this where all hunters will be happy with any change.

As with all other states, when the deer herd numbers are down, the tags go down and when the herd goes up, so follows the tag numbers.

I would say we are all adults and there are times when we simply have to wait. I would hope they could find a solution that would keep all happy but that WILL NOT happen.

[holmsvc]

Start by removing the Nonresident Landowner Gratis permit and the Nonresident via Outfitter permits for buck deer when resident deer draw success rates drop below a certain level.

This would need to be done by the legislation and will never happen. I could see jumping the requirement for the NR Gratis tag from a quarter to a half, but that likely wont happen and it's a drop in the bucket any way.

All these dirt fields aren't going to provide cover for deer. Stop ripping out trees and burning everything!

[LMITOUT]

I would say we are all adults and there are times when we simply have to wait.

Couldn't agree more.

This entitlement attitude we've been seeing lately is sickening. Yeah it's disappointing that sometimes you don't get drawn for a tag. Tough. That's the way it works and has for quite some time now and why they have a lottery instead of selling them over the counter. No sense in pouting and stamping your feet over it demanding that something must change. Some years you get lucky and some years you don't.

[brittman]

There was a time when NRs could pull surplus doe permits. Cost was a fraction of the original NR license. They did not sell many. Few would travel to ND to shoot a doe.

If G&F not interested in more money ... why the license fee increases (effective April 1 2014?

•resident big game hunting license from $20 to $30 (youth big game license remains at $10)

•nonresident big game hunting license from $200 to $250

•nonresident big game bowhunting license from $200 to $250

Is the G&F fully self supported or do they draw from the general fund ?

[brittman]

it's a drop in the bucket any way.

[brittman]

I have no real stick in this fire. Have not bothered to hunt deer in ND since I left home some 25 years or so ago. Relatives land is some of the best deer land in the state (river bottom land in a prairie state can be rather good) - maybe I just killed too many, too young in life and got spoiled.

By the time I retire - I will probably have a 1/4 or 1/2 section. Gratis all the way baby. The rest of you can wait your turn in the lottery.

[brittman]

I would say we are all adults and there are times when we simply have to wait. I would hope they could find a solution that would keep all happy but that WILL NOT happen.

Patience must have a come a little later in life since you admitted in a post above that you were working with a G/O to get you the $250 licenses in the past (there by by-passing the lottery).

[Scoot]

This entitlement attitude we've been seeing lately is sickening. Yeah it's disappointing that sometimes you don't get drawn for a tag. Tough. That's the way it works...

LMITOUT, we should post in this thread more often because it's about the only place we've ever agreed on anything! I may not love it, but your post above is spot on. I still hope I can hunt in ND every single possible opportunity, but it looks like that won't be every year. At least that'll likely be the case for a while. Time will tell!

[LMITOUT]

They have stated that if they go to 1 deer per person and force bow hunters to make a choice...

I hope they proceed with this option. It should have been this way from the beginning.

[candiru]

Is the G&F fully self supported or do they draw from the general fund ?

They are self funded as far as I know no general funds are used.

[harvey lee]

Sure Brittman, there was a time I would go through an guide for our deer rifle tags. Since I could get them from the guide for the same price as the Lottery, why not? Actually, I made a mistake, we paid $200 for the tags, the new fee will be $250. Didn't want anyone to think we were paying motre than others.

Since he no longer does the guide gig, the last years I have went through the lottery.

Couldn't agree more Lmit.

I am sure many NR hunters wait up to 5 years for a deer rifle tag and the ml tag can be even longer that that. But we still apply hoping this is the year for a tag.

When the deer numbers were high, out group of non res hunters if lucky went maybe 3 for 5, now, the 5 of us will never hunt rifle together again. Stinks but that the way it is.

Maybe I should call the G&F and whine for awhile and then they could change the rules for us.

[KEN W]

I hope they proceed with this option. It should have been this way from the beginning.

I agree 100%.NR rifle hunters will have more opportunities than they would have now since there would be more tags available if everyone has to go through the lottery.

I would not apply for a NR tag until I contacted the GNF to see if there are any tags of the 1% available in the units.Especially in the badlands where NR landowners take all of them.

[harvey lee]

I would have no issue with 1 tag per person.

Not sure Ken how the NR rifle hunters will have a better chance at a tag if they went they way suggested. Yes there would be a few more tags but we wouyld still see the 1% for a NR rifle hunter unless they dropped the 1% for nr hunters and I highly doubt the residents would go along with that scenario.

I always apply for a NR tag even if there is only 1 tag, have to keep the lottery points up for the next year. If I do not get drawn, they refund my fund's.

I am sure some zones with enough NR landowners pull alot or all of the NR tags, but that is not the majority of those zones available.

My understanding is, only 50% of the 1% NR tags go to guides and outfitters. Then the NR landowners pull what is left from that small number and the few left are for the lottery. So, if this is true and I believe it has been this way for years, one always has a chance even if it is very small, with the exception of a few zones where the NR landowner takes the balance of the tags after the G&Oer are done. Guess that is why they can charge what they can and do for the balance of those tags, supply and demand.

If the guide's and outfitters recieved 100% of the 1%, no NR hunter could ever pull a NR rifle tag and we still do get them depending on how many NR rifle hunters apply in that zone. Pretty tough id there are 10 NR tags and the guides get 5 of them, that leaves 5 NR tags for all of those NR rifle hunters who apply. Guess that is why with the deer numbers down like they are that it will now taske every 4-6 years to pull a NR rifle tag. Now if a zone has 50 tags and the G&0 only take 10, well ones chances are much better if that zone is under applied for by NR rifle hunters but that is typically not the case.

The G&F could do about anything they decide will be the best for all but of course, the legislature will have the final say.

I do not see them messing with the 1% for NR rifle hunters but heck, again they could suprise me.

[KEN W]

Harvey.....1% of 5,000 is more than 1% of say 4,000.The more total rifle tags,the higher the number of NR in the 1%.This is of course by units not the total number for the state.So every increase of 100 tags increases the NR tags by 1.A few thousand increased would be a good increase.

Not sure what the cutoff is of the total number of tags for G/O.I do know they can get up to 5.Is it possible that G/O and NR landowners can get them all?I know they do in the mule deer units.Never asked about any of the whitetail units.That's why if I was a NR,I would ask the GNF before applying.

I'm going to contact Randy Kreil and get a little more info on that.

[harvey lee]

I agree Ken it will increase it to maybe a couple more NR tags, not really enough to make a big difference.

Per zone, I doubt that the tags would increase by a few thousand, at least in 2G1, maybe a larger number for other zones. All I have ever hunted in is 2G1.

My understanding from the guide I use to get our tags from said he could get a max of 5 I believe but that depended on how many other guides applied for those tags. It use to be, almost 100% sure that only 50% went to the G&O's and the others went to the NR lottery less the NR landowner tags. This is what I understood from him but that was some years ago and they could have changed that a bit.

[Uncle Rico]

Good Lord Harvey. For someone who claims it is no big deal, you sure [PoorWordUsage] and moan about it a lot. Let it go.

[harvey lee]

All I was stating Uncle Rico is that if they changed the method as Ken suggested, it would not make that big of a difference.

Scoot mentioned above his patience was not that good and I agreed mine was not either. No, it's not that big of a deal, life will go on if I hunt NR or not.

I believe we were discusing different options for the archery and rifle season in regards to the tags. Everyone has thier opinion on how this could be changed and I guess you do not care for what I posted. Didn't know that was against the rules, maybe your's.

No need to get your undies in a bunch. If it makes you feel better, I will refrain from posting anymore on this subject.

That's all, sorry I upset you.

[KEN W]

This is the kind of discussion that our GNF wants over the next year.So they have lots of input before making a decision.Keep up the ideas Harvey.

Uncle Rico.....maybe you should go and hide in your minivan so you don't have to read it.

[harvey lee]

I agree Ken 100%.

Until we can get a few easier winter's and good springs for fawning, our deer population will not increase.

The CRP program will hurt with the loss of grasses for fawning that I agree with 100%.

We have always seen the deer tags numbers bounce around from highs to lows in regards to tags and that will always be there from time to time, nothing we can do about that.

How does the G&F solve the issue when the numbers are low so a larger percentage of hunters will get a tag more often is the big concern.

Some will have to give up more than others to try to increase the percentage for all to get a tag more often.

Of course as a NR, my concern is if you do not offer the archery tags over the counter, my chances at any deer tag will really be reduced. If they went with a lottery for all tags and no guaranteed tag for archery with the over the counter archery tag's, yes, it would increase the rifle tags some.

Then if the G&F did that, some resident's would also be upset as thier kids who archery hunt would also be affected by this change as they could not come home every fall to archery hunt and they will not be interested in that and I highly doubt the G&F would do that.

Maybe for a few years until the herd increase they could drop the over the counter archery tags for all. Maybe move the whitetail deer archery tags for the NR up from a suggested 1% of the total tags to 3%. Then the NR would have a bit better chance and they would be fine with that. That would also help the kids that were raised in ND have a bit better chance of pulling an archery tag to go home and archery hunt with family if they wanted to.

Then we could use those extra ARCHERY tags saved from the over the counter sales how it is now and increase the lottery tags for the rifle and ML lottery tags.

Then, I would increase the points for those who were not drawn so they could pull a tag more often for rifle and ML and not go say 3-5 years without to even it out so noone has to go to long without the opportunity to hunt with thier weapon of choice.

So, the archery guys would be giving up some opportunity but it would increase those numbers for the resident rifle hunter so they can hunt in thier home state more often.

Yes, they would need to change 3 things, no over the counter tags for archery, chance the points structure for people not drawn to increase thier chances and not such a long wait and then also change the lottery percentage for the NR archery tag's by a few percentage points so they also have a bit better chance at a tag from going to a guarented ARCHERY TAG.

Maybe not perfect but a few would have to give up a little yet the resident rifle and ML hunters would have a much better chance at a tag. I understand why the resident hunter gets upset and thinks it not fair when I can purchase a nr archery tag over the counter yet as a resident rifle or ML hunter, one has to take thier chance at the lottery. A lottery for all weapons would really even that out.

This I feel would hurt myself as a NR a bit in regards to archery opportunities but then it would also increase my chance and the resident's chance at a rifle tag or a ML tag.

No pefect solution for the tags until the herd increase but this to me, seem's a kinda fair way of trying to see it evens out a bit more in regards to a hunting opportunity.

Would others agree with that or am I way off. The resident hunters may think I am way off but it seem's it would work to me for all the hunters. One could always add or subtract from what I suggested here to make it an even better option.

I submitted this proposal to the ND G&F on thier public input link.

[KEN W]

Wow.....I like all those ideas.Not sure how much of that would have to go through the legislature next year.I know the 15% for the mule deer bow tags is law.That would have to change with your proposal.

Of course resident bow hunters would probably fight any increase from 1% as it would lower their chances.It will be interesting to go to the April GNF Advisory meetings and hear what they have gotten so far.

[harvey lee]

I realize that some would fight this but if they want to come up with a solution to see that maybe more resident's could hunt more often than the way it has been for the past few years, everyone or many would have to give up something.

Yes, the legislature would have to be involved also but thats the only way I see most of the changes being allowed.

Any changes made will hurt some but hopefully the overall end is that more would benefit.