Deer Management Meetings Announced

[harvey lee]

I believe we all realize that if we could have 3-4 years of mild or average snowfall's and a dry spring during fawning, we would not be where we are today. That of course is beyond our control.

I remember when the hayday's were for deer not all that long ago and there were so many tags, the G&F could not get ride of them all, then 3 or more years of hard winters and here we are.

I would hope we can get back to a number that the habitat will support and no more than that. Then, there should be enough opportunity for all to get a deer tag maybe 2 out of every 3 years or something like that. I believe evryone would be close to happy with that picture.

I also realize that a NR in any state, you may be able to purchase a deer tag or any license for wildlife but with that said, it will soon be a game for only the very wealthy. Average Joe will not be able to afford these licenses as the costs are simply going out of control.

I am not sure that the increase in license fee's is really needed to support the wildlife as it typically is only the NR's that pay the majority of the increases in the majority of the states.

The day is not far away that our children or grandchildren will not be able to cross state lines as either the license fee's will be so high they cannot afford the cost or the licenses will be so few, you simply cannot get one.

We are not that far away and as sportsmen and women, we need to let our rep's know this is really not what we want or what is the best for our kid's hunting future.

I know all about I want a license before that guy get's a license but it the end, we will all lose out or I should say our children will.

I know some will say, it is not that bad and that could never happen but look around at what license fee's have done in the last 10 years or so and just how much harder it is to pull a tag as a NR.

[UMC]

Hard to please everyone with a finite number of deer. I don't hunt a real highly sought after zone and as a resident it took me 3 years to draw a buck tag and 1 of those years I got no tag at all. I'm fine with it, I realize the numbers aren't high.

I'm a little confused on exactly what you want from the GnF Mr. Lee. You want to be able to archery hunt every year? You want costs not to go up? You wants tags for NR unchanged even as total tags have been cut over half in the last 5 years? Hard to have all that as a resident, let alone a NR, as deer numbers drop.

[harvey lee]

Hard to please everyone with a finite number of deer. I don't hunt a real highly sought after zone and as a resident it took me 3 years to draw a buck tag and 1 of those years I got no tag at all. I'm fine with it, I realize the numbers aren't high.

I'm a little confused on exactly what you want from the GnF Mr. Lee. You want to be able to archery hunt every year? You want costs not to go up? You wants tags for NR unchanged even as total tags have been cut over half in the last 5 years? Hard to have all that as a resident, let alone a NR, as deer numbers drop.

I do not believe I stated anywhere that I wanted to hunt every year. With that said, I would like to hunt maybe more than once every 4-5 years if the suggested 1% went into effect.

I understand costs go up but typically they only go up for the NR, take a look back at what a resident license was 10 or 20 years ago and what it is for a NR and how much each has increased. Once I paid like $50 for a deer tag, next year, I believe it will be $250.00. How much as the resident gone up in the past 10 years, I would guess a couple dollars. I never said they could not raise the license fee's, I did say they always seem to nail the NR. History does show that. I also stated that if this trend continues with all states, very few will be able to afford this sport of hunting other than a few who have much more than anyone else. It is turning into a rich man's game for outstate hunting, that is what I said.

I realize the tags are about half what they were and yes, the NR tags have also dropped. It could be 5-7 years before I ever get another rifle tag. It has not decreased for just the resident hunter.

I also realize every zone is different in regards to deer numbers and that it depends on what zone you are in and how many people apply for those tags.

In 2G1 for an example, my Father pulled a resident tag every year he ever applied, don't know if that was 24 or 29 years straight. 4 other friends of mine who are residents also draw a tag every season as long as I can remember except for the last year where almost noone drew a tag as the deer herd is way down. One year noone hunted the place as we thought the herd was so small we did not want to kill even one deer so we closed the ranch up to hunting.

No, he did not aplly for a landowner tag, he went through the lottery. Myself and my brother and son also apply as a NR hunters for rifle and we are lucky if we avergae a tag every 5-6 years.

If they go to a 1% for the NR for archery, it would all but stop my deer hunting in North Dakota. All I am trying to say is there has to be another way to help the deer herd besides all but telling the NR they can only hunt every 4 or 5-6 years.

[UMC]

Your posts are not exactly to the point (you jump around a lot). Sorry for trying to see what you were thinking. The point of my questions was to see if you had ideas of what to do to make the cuts fair instead of just lamenting the changes.

[brittman]

Start by removing the Nonresident Landowner Gratis permit and the Nonresident via Outfitter permits for buck deer when resident deer draw success rates drop below a certain level.

About 1 in 40 buck licenses were NR landowner or NR licenses awarded to guides and outfitters.

They can have a doe permit if draw is running at or near 100%

[brittman]

Without CRP the deer will not recover to the same level they once were at. Grass is a great place for fawns.

The winters of the late '70s were really tough. Go back and look through ND Outdoor Mag's old issues.

[LMITOUT]

Link to watch a live stream of the final management meeting which will be tonight at 7pm:

http://gf.nd.gov/about-us/game-and-fish-advisory-board/deer-meetings/stream

.

[harvey lee]

JUst what I was going to post Lmit.

[KEN W]

Yup,I was going to post it also.If someone can't watch it tonight,it will be available on the GNF HSOforum in a couple days.

Since I went to the first one in Cassleton,it will be interesting to see if the discussion is different this time.

[harvey lee]

Saw the first part where Mr Kriel talked about numerous items and then I lost the feed. Anyone else not see the last hour?

[LMITOUT]

I tried to watch a little after 8pm (forgot about it) and it would never connect.

[KEN W]

I tried after 8 and mine would not connect either.Will have to wait until it is posted on the GNF HSOforum.

Randy Kreil emceed at the one I went to last week.I would guess the first hour will be the same......history and options to look at.The real meat and potatoes is the second hour open to discussion.

[KEN W]

After checking some other sites.....it seems the GNF shut down the webcast last night before the discussion started.Not sure why.That was the best part at the meeting I was at.

[holmsvc]

After checking some other sites.....it seems the GNF shut down the webcast last night before the discussion started.Not sure why.That was the best part at the meeting I was at.

I think everyone is pretty [PoorWordUsage] about that. I really don't think anyone cared that much about watching the presentation live. It is a start to get some things streamed on the HSOforum, but you can't tell me that they didn't expect everyone to complain that the Q&A wasn't broadcasted.

[harvey lee]

I see on the HSOforum they state the video from last night will be up for viewing later today.

I did feel a bit better if possible when Randy Kriel talked about dropping the NR licensing.

When he stated that the guides and outfitter's would lose alot of revenue along with bed and breakfasts and other business's, that gave me a bit of comfort.

Then he also said many people in ND have relatives outstate that like to come home to hunt and if they dropped the NR license or even restricted it even more, it would financially hurt residents and harm those who once lived in ND and wanted to return for the family deer hunt.

I have no issue with restricting it a little as should be with all other licenses. If we all give a little until the herd can rebound, it would be better for all concerned.

In the last 30 year's, I have seen it go from 1 license to numerous in 1 season depending on the herd size. This is always going to be the case as it is in all states as weather and the farm program control the herd size as much as anything.

I am sure most agree that habitat is the key and the G&F need's to key on that aspect of it and then hope for a few easy winter's for the deer to survive.

I am in no way picking on farmers but with all the loss of habitat like the CRP program and tree lines, the deer and other wildlife really do not have much of a chance to increase as far as the herd size goes.

I would say the zone we hunt, 2G1, we are a bit luckier as much of this farm land is farmed and with the Sheyenne National Grasslands and the Sheyenne river bottoms, we may not lose quite the habitat that others area's will.

[holmsvc]

I am in no way picking on farmers but with all the loss of habitat like the CRP program and tree lines, the deer and other wildlife really do not have much of a chance to increase as far as the herd size goes.

The G&F kind of picked on the landowners. Did anyone else catch how they said that the landowners wouldn't let them cut the tags more than they did in 2011(I think), of course they also blamed the hunters for not requesting the tags to get cut more than they were. I find it funny because I think we all know they would have caved to the landowners any way.

[harvey lee]

Who knows what to believe.

I do know one thing this has alot to do with where we are today.

Not that long ago, the deer herd was all but out of control and the ranchers had issues with crop damage and deer feeding on thier hay for thier cattle, then the auto's had alot of car deer accidents so the pressure was on to cut the herd size.

So, they cut it and then 3 bad winters hit at the end of those years with all the tags available and here we are today, with a very low deer herd.

We have normally a very good population of turkey's and like the deer, the population swings up and down year after year. It has always been that way and most likely always will be with both specie.

I do not know if it matters who we or the Game and Fish blame, we need to find a way out of this and get the deer herd to a size that will work for the hunters and the landowners.

They have a tough job to keep the herd size within limits the habitat can support and not so large they become an issue, yet, have enough licenses to keep everyone happy and hunting every fall, tough job.

I think we all have to understand the key to all the deer's woes is habitat and right now, that is a tough one to deal with. Farmers or ranchers want to make a good living and if they plow up every acre, that does not bode well for the wildlife.

What's the answer, I do not know. This country cannot afford to continue to pay people to idle some of thier acerage.

[brittman]

Go back to the old school. Everyone competes in the lottery straight up the same. Deer gun NR licenses allocated at no more than 1% of the total licenses available for that deer type and unit.

The G/O business will have to adapt accordingly. Many of the pheasant operations are going under if they were not based in the SW part of the state. If you base your revenue stream on a dynamic (ever changing) wildlife population, you better have a back up plan.

[brittman]

IF the G&F does not take full responsibility for managing the heard, they should be asked to leave the department.

If the admit to mistakes in counting deer, misunderstanding the impact of winter and habitat loss - that is fine. Wildlife management is NOT an exact science.

Admit your mistakes and provide an action plan to help rebuild the heard (to its new potential) and put in cross checks and balances to prevent the same mistake next time around.

[harvey lee]

I highly doubt they would leave the weighted lottery, to many would have to go without for too long of a time, guess that is why they implemented the weighted lottery in the first place.

Maybe they could increase the weighted lottery for the rersident so the longer you go without, you gain even more points so you would pull a tag without going for too many years. That would maybe even it out more so yes, one would have to go without a year or two but noone would be without for say 4-5 years.

So different in numerous zones depending on the deer herd size.

My father never went without a buck tag for many, many years through the lottery, he never applied for a landowner tag once. I believe it was over 25 years of a buck tag in the lottery every year. That of course would no longer happen with the small deer herd size.

[harvey lee]

IF the G&F does not take full responsibility for managing the heard, they should be asked to leave the department.

If the admit to mistakes in counting deer, misunderstanding the impact of winter and habitat loss - that is fine. Wildlife management is NOT an exact science.

Admit your mistakes and provide an action plan to help rebuild the heard (to its new potential) and put in cross checks and balances to prevent the same mistake next time around.

I would agree. From the numbers they have shown for deer in 2G1, it's alot different than what we see or the local ranchers see in thier fields. last few years I thought the herd size was increasing nicely from what I have had on my trial camera's for numbers.

I think it woulkd be hard to do herd size counts but like I stated, in our smaller area, we have seen a nice increase but no so according to the G&F per licenses available.

[KEN W]

They basically can't do accurate herd size counts w/o snow cover.At the meeting I was at they said they most likely miscounted in some areas.They also said they couldn't know the weather for 3 years.If they could,they said they would have reduced tag numbers sooner.

Kreil said they would like a population of 90-100,000 deer.He said that would probably satisfy most people.

Another interesting idea presented was to use a lottery system where people with the most points would be first in line to get their choice.

Example if there were 400 tags available in a unit,those with the most points would get them.Then the next most,then next most until there aren't enough tags for say people with 1 point.At that point the lottery would kick in.

Not sure how NR would be in on this.

NR tags and G/O tag numbers are set by the legislature.I made the point that NR landowners receive all the 1% in some units and should receive a doe tag unless they are in the lottery with everyone else.He said a bill to change that would probably end up raising the 1% instead of limiting the landowner tags.Resident hunters would be totally against raising that percent.

[brittman]

I did not mean to end the weighted lottery.

Nonresidents earn points too (unless things have changed). If you did not plan to hunt in ND that fall you could just continue to build points by selecting Muley Buck and as a NR the odds were usually 0%.

The outfitter license should go first. They can make it a temporary thing

Landowners should have to live on the property or in ND. I get it - some farmers retire and move to AZ or somewhere else warm. The NR landowner gratis promotes land acquisition.

I know people that own 1000s of acres of land (residents) and they only get one gratis permit because the land is in one name.

[brittman]

Snow cover has been rather good - especially the really bad winter a couple of years ago. When deer come out of a really harsh winters, many does give birth to just one fawn or even abort all fetuses. I learned that one in Wildlife Management 201 30 years ago at NDSU. Kriel must have skipped class that day ?

The NDG&F did not want to give up the income - pure and simple.

[LMITOUT]

The NDG&F did not want to give up the income - pure and simple.

Perhaps I missed it, but I've yet to hear of the G&F ever being short on cash, or the State for that matter, to be worried about giving up income from licenses.