Anybody have tips for blind retrieves on water?

[Pherris]

I took my dog duck hunting for the first time last week. She is a 2 year old lab. On land I can plant dummies (3-5) in heavy cover and then take her out to the general area have her sit at heal and call "Mark dead bird" and she will aggressively work until she finds them. She will also do this when field hunting on live birds. She will return to heal position with each bird and I call "Mark dead bird" she will again go after the next one. She does reall well and will repeat the process until all the dummies have been retrieved. The problem is blind retrieves on the water. If she sees the bird go down she does a great job but if she does not see it she will go into the water on her "Fetch it up" but within seconds if she does not see the bird she returns to heal. The other dogs I have hunted with will keep looking for the bird until called back or until they find the bird. I was wondering if anyone has any tips for getting her to work the water like she will work on land to find the birds? I can sit her at heal and throw a rock to the general area of the dummy and she will find it most times but would really like her to go on the fetch it up command and keep looking until she finds it or I call her back like she does on land. All tips appreciated!

[Ufatz]

Okay, here's what I would do. Toss a dummy bumper) out close to shore so she can easily see it and send her. Then toss our several dummies sorta scattered around, gradually a little farther out. I think once she gets the idea in her head that there are ALWAYS going to be dummies (ducks) out there she will be more inclined to GO! on a blind send.

Remember, I am no dog training expert. The other guys will chime in I'm sure and they may have the absolute best way to handle it. I know of the problem of course and I guess we all get through it one way or another.

I will also sometimes put a duck wing and some scent on a dummie and make sure when you send her blind you are sending her INTO the wind....because it is very hard for a dog to SEE a bird on the water. Put your eyes down to four or five inches above the surfact and get an idea how hard it is, without lifting their head, for a dog to see anything. Then factor in a gentle or not so gentle chop and you can understand why dogs sometimes have a problem with water retrieves.

Okay, best I can do. Have fun. Hope that your rascal does not develop an evil habit like one-year old Abby does. When she is done with water work she likes to come and dry off on the old man! And its getting too dam cold out there for that!

[Todd Caswell]

What your describing is a "hunt Dead" command not a blind retrieve. A blind is when you send your dog on "Back" and he continues in the dirrection sent untill stopped either by a whistle or a voice command, then changes direction via hand signal. The whole blind process is very lengthy and impossible to exsplain here. I recommend picking up a couple training DVD's and watching them over the winter and start over from scratch with your pup in the spring if you want a dog that will run "Blinds"

Teaching the dog a hunt dead command on land is one thing where you can walk over to the area of the fall but I think it would be very tough to get them to do it in the water, you have to have a way to get them there ( to the area) befor they can hunt..

[jparrucci]

I have found a well placed rock or shotgun shell seals the deal. My older Brittany will follow hand signals somewhat but it is not worth the effort in my opinion. I haven't tried teaching him right and left. If every female I know can't figure it out I think it is too much to ask of a dog. Save yourself the time and throw a rock.

[Todd Caswell]

I have found a well placed rock or shotgun shell seals the deal. My older Brittany will follow hand signals somewhat but it is not worth the effort in my opinion. I haven't tried teaching him right and left. If every female I know can't figure it out I think it is too much to ask of a dog. Save yourself the time and throw a rock.

I think it's well worth the effort being able to handle a dog at 300 plus yards is one of the fun and rewarding things in handling a dog.I love running blinds in training and hunting save alot of work on my end. Have never figured out how to throw a rock that far..

Heres a short video of a young dog running her first "cold" water blind, this dog is now QAA, a true AA prospect and a great hunting dog to boot. Not mine I have a litter mate thats not nearly as talented.

[Ufatz]

Hey Todd! I guess terminology has changed since I learned a bunch of this dog stuff. In "my world" a blind retrieve is a retrieve where the dog has not SEEN the bird go down and you are sending it "blindly". As far as handlling IN the water I have not had a problem moving a dog around with the whistle WHILE it is swimming PROVIDED the dog is a pretty solid worker on whistle and hand signals on the ground.

It IS hard to get a dog to leap into the water and head out for something it has not seen go down, no question about it.

Just further thoughts. I'm not the serious dog guy around here....just been fooling around with them for a long time. My methods probably not accepted today and I have never trained a dog for competition and in fact I don't even know what some of the new "categories" are! LOL

[Todd Caswell]

Hey Todd! I guess terminology has changed since I learned a bunch of this dog stuff. In "my world" a blind retrieve is a retrieve where the dog has not SEEN the bird go down and you are sending it "blindly". As far as handlling IN the water I have not had a problem moving a dog around with the whistle WHILE it is swimming PROVIDED the dog is a pretty solid worker on whistle and hand signals on the ground.

It IS hard to get a dog to leap into the water and head out for something it has not seen go down, no question about it.

Just further thoughts. I'm not the serious dog guy around here....just been fooling around with them for a long time. My methods probably not accepted today and I have never trained a dog for competition and in fact I don't even know what some of the new "categories" are! LOL

The "you " in my post above was refering to the OP, to me what he is doing with his dog on land is teaching it to hunt dead, kinda like when one of your buddies calls you over to his blind and says hey I shot a duck and it fell some where over there, could you take your dog over and see if you can find it, you take rover over and say hunt it up because you nor him have any idea where it is.

And yes a bind is where you seen the bird fall but the dog didn't, and he is reliying on you to handle him there..

[Pherris]

Cool video Todd. Like Ufatz I am not up to speed on proper terminology so thanks for clearing that up. I may not have explained the situation I encountered with my pup correctly. The area we were hunting was on a point on an island in the middle of a wild rice farm. Behind us was very heavy forest cover ( some good grouse hunting but that's another story) on occasions we would get birds coming in high and had to do some pass shooting which would drop a bird in the heavy cover behind us. I could send my dog and in most instances she would return with the bird. In front of us we had an open patch of water about 40+ Then the rice started. It was when the bird landed in the rice she would swim in the direction but when she got to the rice she would turn and return to me on shore. I would send her again but she would only go out a bit in the open water and turn around pretty fast. Also if the bird was not dead it would head right for the rice, she would follow but if it went into the rice she would not follow. My buddy's lab would swim right into the rice and work looking/smelling and not stop until she was called back or find the bird. Now when I do the exercise I mentioned planting dummies I do not bring her any closer then 20-30 yards and as far as 50 yards give her mark fetch command and she works like crazy until she finds them so it is not that she won't work heavy cover. As Todd mentioned there were occasions guys without a dog would do the come over rover thing and me and my dog would go after the down bird in the cat tails and we would find the bird. I do have her trained on basic hand commands but mainly for simple obedience commands. I can also get her to go in a direction with hand signals but she just did not want to work the cover in the water like she does on land. Here is a photo that you can see the open water and the rice:

[onthefly]

I'm no expert, but this seems like an exposure issue. Could be completely off base. But, if the dog marked the fall and just won't go in the rice to hunt for it, you'll have to take care of it by setting that scenario up in training.

Also, most guys seems to throw 30 yd marks in open water and the dog thinks everything he's looking for will be in open water at around 30 yds.

I'd tailor training on marks to include a lot of different cover changes - land, water, land; open water, thick cover, etc., etc.

By the way - I agree with Todd on blinds! Seeing a dog nail a bird on a 300 yd blind is just flat out fun to watch!

[Pherris]

Thanks. I am confident she will get better and I do agree that she is expecting to find it from a throw. I am going to work with her on going into cover on the water. She is only 2 and this was her first time with ducks over water and ducks in general. She is not afraid I know because she did retrieve a couple geese that were not dead and none to happy to be in her mouth.

Onthefly I saw your post that your going to No Dak too. Talked to the farmer again today and he said they are there and bring lots if shells. Hope you have a great hunt!

Good Hunting!

[onthefly]

My dog is 18 months and was GOOFY on his first hunt this year. Never touched a decoy in training, but brought 2 back to me. On the 3rd bird I shot, he finally knew what was going on.

Went to NoDak for nonresident opener and he was a changed dog. Stuck a really impressive 60 yd mark on a cripple and a few others I was proud of - about 20 birds in all.

Point is, if it was a first hunt especially, no need to worry!

Good luck in NoDak! Been hearing mixed reports. Scouting is always always key.

[TylerS]

Blinds on water are some of the most difficult retrieves for a dog to do. That said, they're not impossible. Couple questions: 1) has your dog been force fetched, and 2) how well does your dog line?

If your dog has not had formal force fetching, that is the first step to a good blind retrieve. If the dog won't go when commanded, even if he hasn't been trained on blinds, that tells me there's a lapse in fetch training. Also, if he will go but doesn't line well, your dog really isn't running a blind, it's hunting dead. That might get the job done, but it's highly inefficient.

Let's say your dog is FF'd. I'd use the drive to pile drill as the chance to begin your blind retrieves. Place a flag at the pile site, and continue to send your dog on retrieves. Gradually increase the distance your dog is to the pile. After this becomes routine, switch locations and send the dog to the flag. Chances are, you'll have to shorten the distance again before backing off. After a while of flag drills in various dry-land locations, you can switch to water. Place the flag across a small gap of water, like a ditch or something. It may appear trivial, but it's the perfect spot to build confidence in a dog. Back off so that the distance to the water's edge increases.

After this, it's just a matter of finding different water locations with longer retrieve sites. Narrow bays are good for this, because if you set a retrieve and it winds up being too long, you can move toward the narrow end and reset the scenario with a shorter distance.

This whole scenario does two things: it gets your dog to cross water on command, and it helps with lining. Eventually you will be able to remove the flag and send your dog anywhere. It's still helpful to have some object on the far shore for the dog to key in on at first, but eventually even this won't be needed.

One of your very last drills will be moving the bumper off the shore and into the water. This is the last piece. Then you're dog will be ready to hit a fallen duck he doesn't see go down on the water, or land.

This is a rather abbreviated lesson plan, but it definitely works. And listen to Todd. If there's anyone who knows about working retrievers, it's him.

[Pherris]

Thank you Tyler. She has been FF trained and is good with lining but obviously needs more work. I appreciate your tips and will definitely use them to work with her to improve. She did well this weekend in ND over sloughs but she saw the birds fall and even though there were cattails between our blinds and the water she did not actually see the hit it she did well so I think the first few sessions will be accomplished pretty easy but I don't think just starting at the last drill would be wise. Thanks!

[Ufatz]

Tyler's "pile drill" is in essence my repetition sessions which I simply move to water after dog is locked in good on the land blinds. The more times sent from land to water on dummies (bumpers) dog has seen the more the memory locks in. Repeition is the key as far as I'm concerned in all these things and my guess is the real trainers here would agree to that.

But to me, it sounds like that dog is going to quickly pick it up for you if he is already going into the rushes and slougs eagerly, even having seen bird go down. Just one more little step! Ha!

Ain't it fun!!

[Todd Caswell]

It really isn't so much about FF, FF is more about proper delivery of birds and the introduction to pressure and how to deal with it. But has alot to do with force to the pile, the mini T, the double T and pattern blinds on land, and Water force and the swim by drill in the water. Transitioning to cold blinds on land and water.

[Pherris]

Ufatz it is fun. She did not break early she went on her name as she was trained. Repetition is key as you mentioned and I work with her almost every day on something making sure she gets her daily excercis and keeps sharp and gets me off the couch.

[Ufatz]

Between Todd and Pherris there are some very NICE looking Labs out there. I always notice the pix guys post of their pals.They both look smarter than the kid who waited on me in H.Depot the other day.

I think I could have sent him on a blind in the paint department and he would have come back with a lawn mower!