Newbie Questions

[BradB]

Howdy,

I'm thinking of getting an ATV for two purposes: Minnesota ice fishing (pulling an Otter 2-man), and deer hunting in and around a tamarac/black spruce/spagnum moss swamp (hauling in blind materials, hauling out trophy bucks). I have zero experience with ATV's.

Do any of you have any suggestions on where I could learn what I need to know to get the proper machine?

A buddy told me to get an Arctic Cat 300 4WD. He said that would be light enough and powerful enough for what I want it to do and priced about right.

I'd appreciate any help you might give and thanks.

[Guest]

Hi, BradB.

I was faced with a similar decision about a year ago, and it's tough to dig up the needed information. My first evaluation point and perhaps the most obvious was what was going to be its primary use. Easy answer for me, ice fishing. So power wasn't a real big issue since I only be toting a portable. Clearance, however, was a huge issue. I wanted maximum clearence. If I had the need to pull a permanent, yeah, power would be a big issue. The third thing I considered was drive train. 4 wheel drive was an obvious. A shiftless transmission would be a big plus in deeper snow. I didn't really want to fiddle with gears if I got stuck, and there's no question you'll get stuck at some point. Fourth was reputation. I really think all the players make a quality unit. If you're not going to abuse them like a teenager, they're all pretty bullet proof. Fifth was easy access to a dealership, whereever you might take it. Things don't break often, but you know they'll break at inopportune times. Finally, I considered price. They all seemed to be fairly similar as far as MSRP goes. However, individual dealer prices varied widely. So, it pays to call around.

You bring up a good point about weight. They're all heavy. And unless you're an accomplished power lifter, you're not lifting them. Here's some weight info I found on the big three (Polaris, Aric Cat, and Honda) HSOforum's.

Polaris 700 740lbs. 400 697lbs.
500 697lbs. 325 634lbs.
Artic Cat 500 669lbs. 300 585lbs.
400 659lbs.
Honda Rubicon 600lbs. Rancher 535lbs.
Foreman 595lbs.

Check out the manufacturer's websites to gather further specification information.

I went with a Polaris Sportsman 400. The Sportsman series offered the most clearance of all lines (11.5"), plenty of power, an automatic transmission, and a fair price (just under $6000 after tax, license, and a windshield). It has served me very well.

Good luck with your decision. It's really kind of fun to stand each model up against each other and come to a conclusion.

Dave (a FishingMinnesota regular) will also add some valuable input to you decision. Right, Dave

[BradB]

Thanks Bornofice,

I'll put together a spreadheet for all models on weight and clearance. As far as drive train, I would assume that 4WD would be what I need in the swamp and deeper snow. I'll have to look at the price differences on shiftless transmission. Since I live in the Cities I would assume that I'd have access to dealers of any of the models.

I searched Google, Dogpile, and Oingo looking for a "choosing an ATV" summary. I couldn't find much.

What I don't have a good handle on is how well these machines work in differnt depths and types of snow, and over swampy and wet areas. I'm not much interested in going fast along established trains; but instead am more concerned about getting off the lake after a day of fishing where it snowed 6 inches atop the 12 already down.

What are the types of conditions that ATV's are not suited for? I don't have a good sense of the limitations.

All advice is appreciated!

[This message has been edited by BradB (edited 11-19-2001).]

[Dave]

Brad,
Bornofice offered some very accurate info, as far as what is needed for an ice fishing ATV machine. I think he made a wise decision with the Sportsman 400. Clearance is the biggest problem with an ATV on snow; just like with ANY vehicle and snow.

A four-wheel drive is a must for ice fishing/swamp deer hunting riding. No doubt about it. 4WD's are not all "4WD" thou. The limited slip front differential in many brands/models only allow three wheels to spin, at times. I know Polaris has true 4WD. That's a big benefit to think about. And, now other brands/models have locking front differentials (from rider controls) to "lock" the front end in for true four-wheel drive. Polaris is known for its muddin' capabilities; which equals the best traction.

Check out
http://atvnews.com/output.cfm?id=37387
for a 2001 Buyer's Guide article. This may help you digest information on different units.

Tires with an aggressive bite play a big role in how much snow you can ride through. Whether the "bite" is aggressive tread design tires or perhaps stock tires with tire chains added. If the top of the snow is really crusty and your machine breaks through the top crust, you may be hung up with stock tires but not with tire chains or meater tires. I'm not going to say you can ride through 3' of snow but you would be amazed at the snow I have ridden through. Any lake you have fished, are there any other tracks out there to follow? I've ridden on snowmobile trails where if you step off the trail, you're in waist deep snow. Stay on the packed snowmobile trail and I could ride as far as the snowmobile did. Everything has its limitations. How your machine is set up will play a big part in those limitations.

A 300 size machine will do more than most would think. Start adding larger tires (for more clearance/ traction) or loading the machine with gear and it may suffer in power more than you'd like, at times. A 400 would be the minimum I'd go for cause more than likely, you'll be carrying gear.

Take a look at that link and it just may have some answers for you. We'll help as much as possible.

PS....If you happen to go to the Ice Fishing Winter Sports show that's coming up, look in the Otter Outdoor display. You'll see my machine, ready for ice fishing

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 11-20-2001).]

[Guest]

BradB,

Dave is right about how much snow these things will go through. I found I could trounce through 18" or more of loose snow pretty easily. And a foot of any kind of snow, was rarely an issue. Like I said though, you'll get stuck eventually. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to get these things unstuck in the snow. In the mud? Well, that's a different story. You might want to think about adding a winch.

[BradB]

Thanks a lot guys. I very much appreciate the link to the buyers guide. Very helpful!

I took a trip over lunch to the nearest Polaris dealer and had a look at the Sportsman 400. My first impressions were that it was huge, and that it has a ton of ground clearance. The only ATV I've ever driven was an old Honda 110 and you can imagine my surprise. I hadn't really conceived of the size difference and it immediately brought to mind storage issues.

If I were to buy the Polaris 400, or one of similar size, the shed I had in mind for it would not be an option. I would only be able to use the boat garage, which would require some serious shoveling every weekend (to get the ATV & trailer out the cabin driveway (50 yards)). It then occurred to me that I could get a plow on it, and plow my way out. Any thoughts on the plows? Are they robust or just a gimmick? Do they come on and off easily for when its time to stop plowing and load up to go fishing.

A few other questions come to mind (and I'm sure more will) so I'll post them here:

1. Winches--front or back? Does it matter where? If the front, say, had a plow attached would you be forced to put the winch on the rear?

2. Plastic racks on the Polaris 400. Are these tough enough? Do they crack and break off, especially with the cold?

3. Are the factory tires adequate? Would you go with them, or special order something better straight out of the box?

4. My plow question from above. Good, bad, gimmick?

BTW, here were the prices I was quoted:
Sportsman 400 $5200 (with rebate included)
Winch $450 installed
Plow $400
Plow installation ~$100 (1.5 hrs @ $65/hr)
Triton XTV Trailer $650
Ramp for trailer $175
Front rail for trailer $100
Upgrade to 10" wheels $50

High, low, fair, unfair?

You guys have been great and I appreciate your advice so far. Dave, I will be sure to check out your rig at the Saint Paul show. I've been to every one of those ice shows and look forward to it each year.

Brad

[This message has been edited by BradB (edited 11-20-2001).]

[Dave]

Yup, these machines aren't no small rides nowadays. Maybe you just outta buy a small pickup....lol

Let's go through your questions:

1. Winches--front or back? Does it matter where? If the front, say, had a plow attached would you be forced to put the winch on the rear?

Aftermarket companies also have winch mounting plates so a person can move their winch from the front to the rear rather quickly. A little spendy in my book for this type of mounting kit but some people have the bucks and like being able to switch from front to rear. Polaris has such an item. You unpin the winch from the front mounting plate, unplug the electrical connection and move the winch to the rear. I really haven't had the need to winch from the rear ever. But, I've always had other machines nearby to winch me out.
With the winch mounted on the front, you could actually raise and lower the plow with it. If using the winch to raise or lower the plow, you can save some money by not buying the "manual lift handle assembly" for the plow. And, I'd bet you could install the plow mounting plate under the machine by yourself; saving the plow installation cost. The plow mounting plate only uses four bolts (two of which are U-bolts) under the machines belly.
The plow frame tubes attaches to the mounting plate under the machine with a couple of locking levers, or on some plow models, hitch pins. All plows mount this way on any machine. Then, you connnect your winch cable to the plow up in front and you're set.
Also, winches will allow the plow to be lifted higher off the ground than would a manual lift handle. You could probably ride to your fishing spot with the plow still attached to the machine.

Seems Polaris has a promotion going on now concerning the winch; $69 with any ATV purchase. Warn winches are good winches.

http://www.polarisindustries.com/promotion/atv/promoUs_financing.asp

2. Plastic racks on the Polaris 400. Are these tough enough? Do they crack and break off, especially with the cold?

Never had, or seen one break. I have mounted rack accessories (even racks that hang off the back of the plastic rack) and strapped on weight/gear and haven't had any problems. Oh, I did break a corner off a Kawasaki platic rack before. But, I also took a piece of the tree off too

3. Are the factory tires adequate? Would you go with them, or special order something better straight out of the box?

Like I said, you'd be surprised at what you probably will ride through on stock tires. And, Bornofice verified what he has ridden through. If you make a deal at the dealership, Polaris recommends Goodyear Mud Runners. They're more aggressive and they still give you a nice ride on the trail. Or, look at the tires that are on the Sportsman 700. They're more agressive than the 400's tires I believe. Ask the dealer to swap tires and see what they say. Make those dealers work to earn your business

I've heard this is the cheapest place to mail order tires. It'll give you an idea about tire prices and what the tread design looks like. Once at the home page, type "atv" in the search box in the upper right. Click on any tire model name to see a pic of the tire.

http://www.treadepot.com/td.c/orders/index.html

4. My plow question from above. Good, bad, gimmick?

On no, they're not a gimmick. I have the V-plow set up from Polaris. Now, it may seem like I'm a Polaris nut. But, I have tested and written quite a few stories on their products
Actually, Polaris' accessories are manufactured by other companies. Cycle Country makes a nice plow as well and my family still plows with the '97 model. I have a 60" wide straight plow on that unit.

www.cyclecountry.com

In all honesty, if you're just using the plow to get your machine out of the shed, I'd probably buy a walk behind snowblower. Probably equal the same cost as a plow kit.
With a lot of snow, you'll have to find a place to bank up the snow, etc., etc when you plow. Sometimes, plowing is more of a headache than it's worth.

I would think that price would be down on the Sportsman 400. 2002 500's are $5849. You're suppose to be able to save about $800 by getting the 400. And, check on that winch promotion I mentioned above.
Call Owen at Heinen and Mason (763-425-2178) in Osseo and Matt at PRO Sporting Goods (763-576-1706)in Ramsey for some Polaris prices. They're both the head honchos of the places. Heinen's usually the cheapest.
No I don't work for any of these places.

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 11-21-2001).]

[Guest]

See, I told you this kind of decision making is fun.

The price they quoted you on the machine is about (maybe slightly less) what I paid a little less than a year ago. Sounds like a real fair price.

My first thought about a winch would be to put it on the front. If I got stuck, I certainly don't want to go backwards and take another run at the hazard. However, I've seen guys with rear mounted winches as well. Dave should be able to fill you in on the finer points of winches.

I too was a little leary about plastic racks initially. However, I found them indestructable, better for securing items, and more eye-pleasing. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I think the factory tires are adequate, but you can certainly do better. It's kind of a deal where the more you spend, the better things can be.

I've thought about a plow myself. I know people that plow their whole driveway with them. They've all said it's just terribly fun (I question their mental health). However, I don't think you're going to push around a 12" snowfall.

As far as trailers, I would look around for a better price (unless that is an aluminum frame Triton). I use a 5x8 utility trailer that I bought at Northern (Hydraulic) for $500. That included a loading ramp. You could probably save on the accessories by installing them yourself. They're not terribly hard to install and usually come with pretty detailed directions.

Let us know if you have any more questions. And certainly, let us in on your final decision.

[BradB]

Dave & Bornofice,

Holy cow, you guys know answers! I'm going to need a bit of time to digest all of it and do some more research on your points. But thanks! You've given me something, besides turkey, to chew on over the Thanksgiving break. I'll get back to you after some more furious R&D.

Brad

[Dave]

A 12" dumper really isn't that much of a problem, Bornofice. The only headache I get towards the end of the year is where to bank up the snow. In the yard, I push it up and over the banks along the driveway. But, when clearing the street by the mailbox, I run outta room for banking and usually get the neighbor's blower.

So Brad, we sound like we know what we're talkin' about huh?

Have a good Thanksgiving guys

PS......IF you get the $69 deal for the Warn winch, that's cool and a good deal (insist that the winch mounting plate comes with it). If you don't, look at the Superwinch. It's a very good winch also for a LOT less money.

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 11-21-2001).]

[Guest]

Not to plug a dealership, but I bought mine at Heinen and Mason. If you're set on a Polaris, I'm betting they'll match anyone's price. Plus, I bargained Owen (actually, I think his name is Onan) into a free travel cover, a free hat, and a windshield at cost.

[BradB]

Dave & Bornofice,

You do appear to know what you are talking about. Maybe you should be consultants and charge for this service

I made the spreadsheet comparing the Arctic Cat 500 4x4 Auto, Bombardier Traxter Auto, Honda Foreman Rubicon, Kawasaki 400 4x4, Polaris Sportsman 500 H.O, Polaris Sportsman 400, Suzuki Quadmaster 500, and Yamaha Kodiak 400. They all seemed pretty comparable though there is a significant difference in ground clearance. The Bombardier is more expensive too, but maybe those are Canadian dollars. j/k.

Two more questions occurred to me.

1. The Polaris Sportsman (400 and 500) both have the "Automatic variable belt w/reverse" transmission. I did a Google search for "Problem with Polaris Sportsman" and got a number of hits on the transmission. Apparently in wet conditions the belt can get dirty and slip. Do either of you, or anyone else, have experience or knowledge on this failure mode?

2. Trailers. If you were to start fresh and not have a trailer, what would you look for when its use is mostly ice fishing? I would be trailering the ATV ~10 miles on dirt (each way) every time I go ice fishing (two days a week at least). My boat trailer gets beat up on these gravel roads requiring me to sand and paint it every year.

Thanks again, and I hope you had a great Thanksgiving. I'm out to explore a huge coniferous bog (by foot) in the rain.

Brad

[Guest]

BradB,

I've heard of the belt issue, but just issues with wetness. There is a quick fix to it however. Throw it in neutral and gun the engine repeatedly (never more than 10 second bursts). This will expell the water in a hurry. I am not sure what you do to expell dirt. There may be a drain plug on the belt housing that would allow you to flush the inside. Dave, do you know?

If you can afford an aluminum trailer or a galvanized trailer, that would be the way to go. They'll both stand up to the abuse of rocks. I'd advise against a snowmobile trailer, unless you enjoy changing flat tires about every third trip. I'm not sure I've ever driven up I-35 in the winter without seeing at least one disinigrated tire. Buy something with 12" tires minimum.

As far as being paid for advice, I'm more than happy to provide it (if I know it) as a favor to the finest fishing HSOforum known to man. Dave, on the other hand, already gets paid for it.

Happy trails, dude.

[Dave]

Ah, just to be clear, I don't get paid for it from FM

As far as the wet belt problem, Polaris redesigned the clutch housing in 2001 and on some late 2000 models. There are no air intake holes, for the clutch cover, on the side of the gas tank anymore. And, the air exhaust from the clutch cover faces to the outside rather than straight down, like in the olden days. Plus, metal "splash shields" were added under the front fenders. You'd seriously have to be riding in deep deep water to cause any wet belt. If my memory serves me right, there is also a drain plug on the bottom side of the clutch cover (incase a dunking does occur). Bornofice's advice on drying a wet belt is accuarte. It doesn't sound like you'd be the dunking kind of guy, Brad, so I really wouldnt worry about it.

I have the Triton SL8 side loading trailer. It's aluminum and I like it. No more paint chipping or rust. Aluminum trailers should still be washed thou so oxidization doesn't start from the winter salt. A little advice. If you're going to be on dirt roads alot, try and have a shield on the front of your trailer. I'm sure you've seen those on snowmobile trailers. The machines get awfully dirty/muddy and salty when hauling during the winter. I give that advice, and yet, I don't have a shield on mine. Go figure huh I just haven't designed a shield since I have side loading ramps.

[Guest]

Your freind is right. Go with the Arctic Cat 300 4x4. I have one and it has been trouble free for two years now. It hasn't been treated very nice but keeps on going.

[Dave]

Hey Brad, I see you're over at the atvnews.com forum board, asking questions. I'm keepin' my eye on ya

Hopefully, you're getting the info you need.

[BradB]

It's not that I'm necessarily stingy, but I like learn as much as I can about a subject before I dive in. I am getting help, and I appreciate it. It seemed reasonable, though, to check on a ATV-specific forum as well.

Might as well use this computer for something, eh?

[Dave]

That wasn't meant as a slam, Brad. I was just over there (I don't go very often). and noticed your name so, I thought I'd rib ya a little.

Oh, no doubt. You should see the stuff I research when just buying tires or something. Wife thinks I'm nuts. I simply say "I want the best, for the best price".

[Guest]

BradB,

You're right on doing all the research. A four wheeler costs a pretty good chunk of change and should end up being what you want. Plus, you'll be able to lend all your wisdom to other FishingMinnesota faithfuls when they need to make "the decision".

I'm excited to hear what machine you go with.

[Kingfisher]

My knowledge of the late model ATV's is 0, I have an old Honda 200 2X4. We were fishing out of Zipple Bay Resort last winter before they would allow pickups and cars on the ice, it was 20 degrees below zero, when we got picked up I asked our guide why the Polaris ATV was stranded out on the ice, and he said "you never should have an ATV with a belt drive out here", which that one had. Keep the good info coming.

[Guest]

Uh-Oh, debate in the ATV forum. We've yet to encounter that.

Kingfisher, how many other ATVs made it out there that day?

Sounds like Polaris has addressed the potential problems with moisture entering the belt housing. However, I would confront a dealer or, better yet, Polaris with this issue.

Dave, any comments.

[BradB]

Dave & Bornofice,

Currently I'm leaning towards the Honda Rubicon, primarily due to my concern about robust reliability. The more and more I searched, I increasingly found complaints about the reliability of other brands. Whatever machine I purchase I would like to last for a very long time, and I'd like to make the best choice from the get-go.

It sure would be nice if there was a consumer advocate webpage that would track a database of consumer complaints. When you get into these type of discussions you see too many brand-conscious folks who hate all but what they own. These, I assume, are the same folks who have decals of Calvin peeing on Ford, Chevy, or whatever on the back of their truck cabs.

The Rubicon apparently has a ground clearance of 10 inches, only 1 less than any in the Polaris Sportsman series. However, I question this value. On the Honda HSOforum http://www.hondamotorcycle.com/models/2002/?model_number=TRX500FA they list it at 7.8 inches (both the 2001 and 2002 models), while on the ATVreports.com buyers guide it is http://www.atvnews.com/output.cfm?id=37981 10 inches.

I'm wondering if there isn't a standard by which ground clearance is measured? I would assume it would be measured from the lowest point between the wheels, but maybe there are marketing tricks played by measuring it in the front, or back.

A fellow on the ATVnews.com board said the ground clearance is 10. A Honda dealer in Minneapolis said 10 as well. I guess I'm going to need to take the tape measure to the dealer and find out for myself.

[This message has been edited by BradB (edited 11-27-2001).]

[Guest]

BradB,

Hey Brad, I have had Honda & Harley motorcycles for years! No doubt Honda would be your best bet for reliability. But don't forget the fun factor. I believe the Rubicon is fulltime 4wheel drive. I have two friends with fulltime 4wheel drive Foreman's, but when they want to play, they ask to ride my Polaris because when the work is over & you want to play, only 2wheel drive will do.

[Guest]

BradB,

I think you're making a well researched, sound decision if you decide on the Honda Rubicon. And you're right about forums, you will get a lot of brand name prejudice. That's just human nature. Like I've always said, give me a sweet (and I mean real sweet) deal and I'll about face on brands tomorrow. The only thing I hold true to are my beer (Grain Belt Premium) and my family (and admittedly Ford trucks). I rode a Honda Rancher this weekend and found it to be a very user friendly unit.

Whopper is correct about the fun-factor, but fun doesn't always get you to where you need to be.

Definitely bring a tape measure. Clearance is a big factor in the snow.

Thanks for all of your input. Hopefully, this information will help out some of the other FishingMinnesota faithful.

[Dave]

Who let those Honda guys in here?.....lol

Seriously, the Rubicon is a pretty nice machine but, we've found a couple of problems with the Rubicon as well.
1. As far as ground clearance, we actually measured the ground clearance using boulders and a rider (real life slow riding/rolling clearance). I can't remember the clearance number but have an email into my buddies. I'll get back to you on this.
2. As Whopper noted, the Rubicon is full-time 4WD. Not really fun for the fast paced trail rec ride. (the FUN factor) The steering will be heavier due to it being full-time 4WD.
3. No independent suspension. It is NOT as smooth as something like the Sportsman or Grizzly. MY back needs a good suspension.
4. Drum brakes. Drum brakes are old technology.
5. IF the Rubicon's tranny ever breaks there's NO user servicable parts. If a belt breaks on something the other brands, that can be changed on the trail. Belts are about $35. Belts are lifetime warrantied now from Polaris. For whatever that's worth.
6. The Rubicon is NOT a very good pulling machine. It loses a tremendous amount of power pulling heavy loads (permanent fish house ???). We tested the pulling capabilities of all the machines, last fall, during our ATV Trials up in the Iron Range with an actual ATV weight transfer sled. We were not impressed with the Rubicon. Also, the Rubicon does lose a good amount of power when used in higher elevations. Not that that's where you'll use it but I'm just telling you what we found and heard from dealers.

Pulling an Otter behind a Ruby will work just fine.

Maybe wait till the Honda Rincon comes out in summer of 2002? That model has all the updated features. Haven't rode one yet because there isn't one to ride.

Hate to throw a twist in your thoughts, Brad. Also, don't discount the Suzuki Vinson. I really liked riding that machine as well. Excellent power. Switchable 2WD/4WD. Nice riding machine.

*****************************
OK, I have the ground clearance results that we found. This measurement is with a rider in the standing position, going over boulders that we measured/placed on a flat trail. Tire pressure set to OEM specs. Real life riding/rolling slow over boulder clearances. FYI......we only tested the largest machine from each OEM. Hope this helps you.

Bombardier Quest
8" scrape bottom
9" knocked it over up front

Suzuki Vinson
8" scrape bottom
9" caught on rear diff.

Yamaha Grizzly
7", 8", 9" no problem
10" just caught on center of skid plate, just touched it, really

Sportsman 700
same as Grizzly, maybe a little better

Honda Rubicon
8" touched rear differential
9" stopped it up front

Arctic Cat 500i
7", 8", 9", 10"
could have done more?!

Kawasaki 650
8" touched rear differential
9" knocked it over
10", No Way!

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 11-28-2001).]