weed spray impact on fishing

[mallardnwalleye]

The so called Facts:

Tom said-

Look at Section 3 of the study and it gives data on where the phosphorus comes from. 44% from release from sediments when the lake is anoxic, 32% from two judicial ditches that enter the lake, 14% for lakeside lands, 6% from the atmosphere and 3% from upstream lakes.

1. The way you quote the numbers are distorted as we would want to measure current inflows of new phosphorus into the lake. The sediments are old exsisting inflows. Doing the numbers we get: 32+14+3=49 14/49= 28.5% of new phosphorus comes from directly adjacent land, based on your assumptions

2.To say you can measure phosphorus releases down to the 1 % level is a little unscientific and unfactual to say the least.

It would be fairly easy and marginally accurate to measure phosphorus flowing into a the lake from a ditch (concentration, flow rate...)but it is not so easy and accurate to measure miles of shoreline and the release of phosphorous without using some large assumptions in the model.

3. Perhaps the ditchs measure a higher % because the measuring is easier to do? Common problem in science.

4. The Alum when properly applied locks up the Phosphorus in the lake sediment but doesn't eliminate the long term problem of phosphorus accumulation. Most all of the Phosphorus locked up will be available again in 12 years.

5. You may want to focus more attention on the inflows of phosphorus as alum won't help with those and they keep adding to the long term phosphorus sediment problem.

I don't want to attack people for trying to manage a lake but maybe they need to think about the long term problem (inflowing phosphorus) and present the "science" and facts for what they are: measurements based on assumptions with some limitations of accuracy.

[LightningBG]

Here is the input that was sought by the White Bear Lake Conservation District for theire Lake Vegetation Plan-Copy paste below-

"following (Appendix 1):

All five WBLCD member communities (Town Board or City Council)

- WBL Homeowners’ Association

- Black Bear Yacht Racing Association

- White Bear Yacht Club

DRAFT

DRAFT

- Dock operators in Commercial Bay

- Online fora for Fishing and Canoe/Kayak interests

- White Bear Press

The letter explained that (1) the WBLCD is preparing a long-term plan to respond to ongoing concerns with nuisance plants, especially Eurasian watermilfoil and (2) a public stakeholders meeting would be held on 5 January 2012.

Public announcements of the upcoming meeting, including an expanded article, also appeared in the White Bear Press issues of 28 December 2011 and 4 January 2012.

An outline of the draft plan (Appendices 2a &2b) was presented at the public meeting on 5 January 2012. Twelve individuals attended and there were four committee members present. Presenters distributed a handout of the proposed Plan’s key elements and expanded on those elements in live presentation. Rapport between presenters and audience was positive. Audience questions followed (Appendix 3). The audience was very supportive of the proposal as presented."

Were you one of the twelve people there? Do you put your money where your mouth is(therefore putting your labor where your mouth is?) Why not start a "WBL Fishing association" so you can counter those evil lakeshore owners and yacht club people?

I believe the millfoil treatments are wrong for the following reasons.

1) There is no real millfoil problem on White Bear Lake

"the finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist" - Charles Baudelaire

2)The narrow self-interest of Yacht clubs, Homeowners Associations and commercial operators has trumped that of fishing and the people of the state of Minnesota.

Again, start your own association or at least go to the darn meetings.

[mallardnwalleye]

From looking at the data in the Bald Eagle Lake study. It appears that the secchi disk readings were higher-clearer (mean= 6.43 ft.) between 1992-2000 when no weed treatment was done than 2000-2004 (mean =4.56 ft) when mechanical harvesting of culy leaf pondweed was done or 2005-2007 (mean= 4.27 ft.) when chemical treatment was done.

There seems to be a possible association of treatments and lower water clairity.

The game fish population has gone down by 30-50% (eyeballing the graph)from 1997 to 2008 and there seems to be possibly an association of lower game fish populations and weed treatments.

The associations-correlations from above may be something Bald Eagle managers might want to look at.

[mallardnwalleye]

Here is the input that was sought by the White Bear Lake Conservation District for theire Lake Vegetation Plan-Copy paste below-

"following (Appendix 1):

All five WBLCD member communities (Town Board or City Council)

- WBL Homeowners’ Association

- Black Bear Yacht Racing Association

- White Bear Yacht Club

DRAFT

DRAFT

- Dock operators in Commercial Bay

- Online fora for Fishing and Canoe/Kayak interests

- White Bear Press

The letter explained that (1) the WBLCD is preparing a long-term plan to respond to ongoing concerns with nuisance plants, especially Eurasian watermilfoil and (2) a public stakeholders meeting would be held on 5 January 2012.

Public announcements of the upcoming meeting, including an expanded article, also appeared in the White Bear Press issues of 28 December 2011 and 4 January 2012.

An outline of the draft plan (Appendices 2a &2b) was presented at the public meeting on 5 January 2012. Twelve individuals attended and there were four committee members present. Presenters distributed a handout of the proposed Plan’s key elements and expanded on those elements in live presentation. Rapport between presenters and audience was positive. Audience questions followed (Appendix 3). The audience was very supportive of the proposal as presented."

Were you one of the twelve people there? Do you put your money where your mouth is(therefore putting your labor where your mouth is?) Why not start a "WBL Fishing association" so you can counter those evil lakeshore owners and yacht club people?

I believe the millfoil treatments are wrong for the following reasons.

1) There is no real millfoil problem on White Bear Lake

"the finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist" - Charles Baudelaire

2)The narrow self-interest of Yacht clubs, Homeowners Associations and commercial operators has trumped that of fishing and the people of the state of Minnesota.

Again, start your own association or at least go to the darn meetings.

Lighting BG thanks for the reply-

I submitted an official written comment concerning the DRAFT -Aquatic Vegitation Plan to the DNR and WBLCD according to the public comment rules as I was out of town on business the day of the meeting.

I have been at the "Conservation" District Meetings and expressed how I felt but in doing so saw the proposed acerage of treated area go up from 70 acres to the maximum (160 acres)the DNR allows. They say you "can't fight City Hall" I would say it is more difficult to fight a group of unelected board members at the WBLCD that are made up of realators and direct local intrests of the lake rather than anyone with a background in conservation or with the intrests of the public-people of the state of Minnesota.

No trick of the devil- I live 170 yards from the lake and fish it 1-2 times per week in the areas that get treated and not treated. I saw how big a problem the millfoil was and is first hand. The devil is in the details and they are that - only a few acres of millfoil were/are a problem for most people who use the lake not 150 acres. The 150 acres of weeds gets wiped out each year is no longer cover for fish or worth fishing. To put it in perspective an 1 acre=football field 5-10 ft high with milfoil. Now multiply by 100 or 150

That is a lot a cover especially when much of it is in a narrow band that gives you a nice edge.

I copied the list that the WBLCD -White Bear Lake vegetation plan sought public comment-see below

- WBL Homeowners’ Association

- Black Bear Yacht Racing Association

- White Bear Yacht Club

DRAFT

DRAFT

- Dock operators in Commercial Bay

- Online fora for Fishing and Canoe/Kayak interests

- White Bear Press

It shows online fishing fora has the same proportion of input sought as -The Black Bear Yacht Club and half that of yacht clubs on the lake.

I think that illustrates pretty well how the narrow self intrest of Yacht clubs, Homeowners Associations and commercial operators trumps that of fishing and the public.

I hope this discussion helps spread the word to people that fish the lake as it seems to me they should have a larger voice in managing the lake than is currently happening.

[Tom7227]

As for the WBLCD -

I attended a meeting of the League of Women voters two weeks ago where they were discussing their preliminary findings and conclusions after a 22 month study of the WBLCD. I suspect that their report will be issued sometime this summer.

They discussed issues about the following - my interpretation of their draft report.

1. Ill defined terms for board members and some have served too long. A claim was that one member has been on the board for over 30 years. The concern was that this limits citizen participation. On the other hand the municipalities that appoint people to the board probably would indicate that they have had very little interest expressed by anyone to sit on the board. Seems to me that this is an area where some public pressure could have an impact.

2, Lack of consistency in training board members on what they are to do and how they are to do it.

3. Lack of adequate staffing. An administrative assistant for 16 hours a week is all they have.

4. Their strategic plan is out of date and thus of little use to deal with current issues.

5. Contracting process often involves simply contracting with the same outfits year after year with no competitive bidding or request for proposal process.

6. Need to improve their HSOforum and promptly post things like the annual report, budget proposals and materials supplied to board members at meetings.

7. Budget process is extremely informal and it appears that the treasurer does it all alone.

What it appears is that there is little public input and little public interest.

[mallardnwalleye]

As for the WBLCD -

I attended a meeting of the League of Women voters two weeks ago where they were discussing their preliminary findings and conclusions after a 22 month study of the WBLCD. I suspect that their report will be issued sometime this summer.

They discussed issues about the following - my interpretation of their draft report.

1. Ill defined terms for board members and some have served too long. A claim was that one member has been on the board for over 30 years. The concern was that this limits citizen participation. On the other hand the municipalities that appoint people to the board probably would indicate that they have had very little interest expressed by anyone to sit on the board. Seems to me that this is an area where some public pressure could have an impact.

2, Lack of consistency in training board members on what they are to do and how they are to do it.

3. Lack of adequate staffing. An administrative assistant for 16 hours a week is all they have.

4. Their strategic plan is out of date and thus of little use to deal with current issues.

5. Contracting process often involves simply contracting with the same outfits year after year with no competitive bidding or request for proposal process.

6. Need to improve their HSOforum and promptly post things like the annual report, budget proposals and materials supplied to board members at meetings.

7. Budget process is extremely informal and it appears that the treasurer does it all alone.

What it appears is that there is little public input and little public interest.

There is a lot of public interest but there is little effective public input as an unelected local conservation board makes the management decisions. More and more local control that consists of narrow interest groups has taken over actual lake management. Ocassional fishermen, boaters and other users whose actual percentage use of the lake is large don't have that same percentage voice in the mangement of the lake.

Wan't one of those so called leauge of womens voters meetings to discuss unbiasedly the WBLCD held at a members home on White Bear Lake?

The point of all this is that the local interests have overstepped their bounds. The people of the State of Minnesota such as a guy from Blaine who fishes the lake once in a while or a Muskie group that has a tournement on the lake has little to say as actual lake management lies at a very,very local and political level.

[LightningBG]

As mentioned earlier. What is a "healthy" lake? Is a lake that has tons of fish but you have to take an air boat out to get to them "healthy"? What about a crystal clear lake that has zero fish?

Each group has their own interests in how the lake is used, and if they are the ones putting the money and energy where their mouth and is, how can you fault them? Would you expect them to pay to turn a lake into a great fishery if nobody fished? Membership would drop to zero, money would be non existent and nothing would get done. Maybe more fisherman should join the associations of the lakes they fish on, pay their financial dues and get some skin in the game and have a voice.

The fact of the matter is these people care more about the lake than most, and they are willing to do something about it. What they are doing just doesn't agree with some.

[Black_Bay]

Part of the problem with Bald eagle is that there were a few years where raw sewage made it's way into the lake because of aging infrastructure. There's a new lift/pumping station at the entrance to the access. After the spills the access had signs talking about it and the lake turned to pea soup.

In my opinion lake associations tend to be suckers for snake oil salesmen. It would behoove LA's to educate themselves and not buy into whatever some expert with something to sell has to say. But that is just my personal and you get what you pay for.

[mallardnwalleye]

As mentioned earlier. What is a "healthy" lake? Is a lake that has tons of fish but you have to take an air boat out to get to them "healthy"? What about a crystal clear lake that has zero fish?

Each group has their own interests in how the lake is used, and if they are the ones putting the money and energy where their mouth and is, how can you fault them? Would you expect them to pay to turn a lake into a great fishery if nobody fished? Membership would drop to zero, money would be non existent and nothing would get done. Maybe more fisherman should join the associations of the lakes they fish on, pay their financial dues and get some skin in the game and have a voice.

The fact of the matter is these people care more about the lake than most, and they are willing to do something about it. What they are doing just doesn't agree with some.

These people don't care more about the lake than most -They care more about their specific interest in the lake and have an obvious dispraportional say in the management of the lake. Again I point to WBLCD own input seeking:

- WBL Homeowners’ Association

- Black Bear Yacht Racing Association

- White Bear Yacht Club

- Dock operators in Commercial Bay

- Online fora for Fishing and Canoe/Kayak interests

- White Bear Press

Does the above look like a proportional vote in managing a lake?

The Lake is "Public Waters" The people of the state of Minnesota are the owner of the lake from the natural high water mark down including the Lake Bed and is responsible for it's citizens interest in it.

Does the above list seeking input reflect that?

Should those who have the most money to spend and time to go to a meeting of unelected locals have the greatest say in the management?

Fishermen are a diffuse use group that has a high proportion of people who use the lake but it tends to be spread out -a guy from St. Paul here, a family from Stillwater there, a College kid from Coon Rapids and so on. They probably don't even know the lake had 150 acres of weeds treated. They come out for a Saturday and fish without a clue because they work and have a family the rest of the time.

I fish the Lake often as others on here do. There observations and mine point to poor fishing and 100+ acres of important fish habitat wiped out each year.

Lake Associations and so called Conservation Districts are spending your own tax dollars fighting invasives that aren't in many cases a nuisance but a healthy important enviroment for fish and good fishing.

Maybe we should start some thing through Muskies Inc. and/or other fishing organizations that limit treating to only matting areas?

[skibass]

I made my original post based off of my own personal experiences without a whole lot of knowledge about phosphorus, runoff, acreage of sprayable lake, etc. I like seeing all the feedback from both sides of the argument and have gotten better insight into the spraying process. The lake I spend the most of my time on is Owasso, which has a lake association that consists of 6 waterskiiers and maybe a couple of others. The lake is supposed to be sprayed for curly leaf on Thursday, meaning the lake will be green by early next week and all of the cabbage will be gone as well. I hope to get more information about this process on Owasso and will be in contact with the lake association on a regular basis as one of the members is my better half's uncle. I understand he has his own interests in mind when making decisions about the lake but he has been helpful in putting me in contact with people who have more knowledge of the situation. Keep the info coming!

[skibass]

If curly leaf grows throughout the winter and peaks in early summer, why isn't it sprayed immediatly after ice out so native plants aren't as affected?

I also looked a little more into the Lake Owasso Association and the vegetation management plan. I may be reading into this wrong but it sounds like a rediculous amount of acreage to be sprayed (%50% of the littoral area):

"Herbicide Control: In 2010, an estimated 146 acres to be treated, ~50 % of littoral area. For a detailed description of the treatment plan see Appendix 1. A second treatment may be authorized if the 1st treatment has failed or conditions have changed and Eurasian Watermilfoil has proliferated post initial treatment. The DNR will consider all second treatment requests and are pending inspection by the DNR."

I would bet that the lake association makes full use of those 146 allowed

acres. That sounds excessive to me.

[mallardnwalleye]

If curly leaf grows throughout the winter and peaks in early summer, why isn't it sprayed immediatly after ice out so native plants aren't as affected?

I also looked a little more into the Lake Owasso Association and the vegetation management plan. I may be reading into this wrong but it sounds like a rediculous amount of acreage to be sprayed (%50% of the littoral area):

"Herbicide Control: In 2010, an estimated 146 acres to be treated, ~50 % of littoral area. For a detailed description of the treatment plan see Appendix 1. A second treatment may be authorized if the 1st treatment has failed or conditions have changed and Eurasian Watermilfoil has proliferated post initial treatment. The DNR will consider all second treatment requests and are pending inspection by the DNR."

I would bet that the lake association makes full use of those 146 allowed

acres. That sounds excessive to me.

Aquathol K the herbicide can't be used until the water temp. is over 50 deg F it is most effective above 65 deg. F.

A reminder that Curly Leaf Pondweed is "Cabbage" as it is a member of the Pondweed family. All treated "cabbage" Broad leaf, Illinois, etc. dies when treated with Aquathol K.

Aquathol K also will kill coontail, milfoil and other weed species.

Typically the DNR will only allow 15 % of Littoral Area (15 ft. or less) to be treated.

Unfortunately on lakes that lack water clairity such as Owasso this becomes much much more than 15% of the Total Aquatic Vegitation Area. If we do the math on your Lake Owasso using the assumption that all 1 ft. contours less than 15ft. have equal area we have:

Lake Owasso Secchi disk: 3.3 ft---weed growth typically goes to 2x secchi=6.6 ft.

At 50% Littoral-

% Littoral area with weeds= 6.6ft/15ft.= .44 or 44%

% Littoral area treated= 50%

.5/.44=1.14 or 114% of aquatic vegitation area to be treated

It looks like they are going to treat all the weeds on Owasso and the extra 14% would be to make up for uneven distribution of contours.

At 15% treated-

2.25/15=.15

.15/.44= 34% of all weeds treated.

If your 50% of Littoral treated is correct they will treat and kill all the weeds. That seems excessive. You may want to check that number, although .5 = 146 acres(quote from above) /292 acres (littoral DNR HSOforum) does check out.

Welcome to the experiment.

[mallardnwalleye]

Aquathol K and treatment is used around 50-55 deg.F so that all the curlyleaf pondweed is theoretically killed and other native weeds take their place later in the year. Theoretically the other weeds are not as emergent at the 50-55 deg. F and less damaged by the herbicide

Let us know if this actually happens on Owasso. From my thinking they should have already treated the lake. ? Let us know what it looks like in June, July and August.

[MN-FishGuy]

The goal with early season Curlyleaf treatments is to treat the Curlyleaf before the natives are present. These treatments are low-dose, early season treatments. Typically 0.5 ppm to 1 ppm Aquathol K is used, and at that rate the chemical has no effect on other native plants. For the majority of other pondweeds, you need to use at least 2 ppm. Now, if you were to get a rediculous amount of contact time, which typically does not happen, than it may affect some natives. But once again, on a normal year, most natives are not actively growing when treatments occur. This year is much different, there are other natives up but the treatments should not affect them very much.

[mallardnwalleye]

CURLY LEAF PONDWEED is treated at .5 ppm-1.5 ppm

Coontail is traeted at 1.0-2.0 ppm

Narrowleaf Ponweed is treated at 1.0-2.0 ppm

Sago Pondweed is treated at 1.0-2.0 ppm

Some Questions

What is the density of treatment used on Owasso?

At what water temperature is the treatment taking place?

How much does the density in ppm of application vary over 148 acres?

How much are other plants damaged or retarded in growth from the application for pondweed?

When are weed measurements taken to verify for this May ,June, July, or only in August?

What are the affects on the fishery of eliminating large areas of weeds in the spring?

If Curly leaf Pondweeds out competes other vegitation because it tolerates low water clairity better could improving long term water clairity be a more effective long term treatment plan?

How effective is Aquathol in reducing or eliminating Culy leaf Pondweed over the long term?

[skibass]

Here is some info on Owasso.

See Section IV on page 3 regarding the large number of acres allowed to be treated on the lake.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/areas/fisheries/eastmetro/lvmp-owasso.pdf

They sprayed this morning. Orange signs all around the lake. It ought to be a barren wasteland by the muskie tourney on June 9th.

[Tom7227]

Just found report about Owasso and it indicates that they received a waiver a number of years ago that allows for spraying a larger area. The waiver apparently expires in 2013.

http://glwmo.org/vertical/Sites/%7BFB4EF9FD-334A-435F-A2D2-492AC37E0401%7D/uploads/Exec._Summary.6.12.11%281%29.pdf

[mallardnwalleye]

Here is some info on Owasso.

See Section IV on page 3 regarding the large number of acres allowed to be treated on the lake.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/areas/fisheries/eastmetro/lvmp-owasso.pdf

They sprayed this morning. Orange signs all around the lake. It ought to be a barren wasteland by the muskie tourney on June 9th.

Skibass, it looks like Owasso is being treated for milfoil which is why it is being treated now instead of early in the year.

I’m sure you and the other Muskie guys know the results when it gets treated.

All I can say from personal first-hand experience when White Bear Lake gets treated for milfoil is

1) Way, way, way more area gets treated than has actually has ever been a nusiance.

2) The strong stench of Ammonia permeates the air.

3) The milfoil dies and uproots live coontail-how I don’t know? but that’s what I see down at the dock washed up on the shore.

4) The once productive milfoil weed beds and their edge that produce Walleyes and have produced quite a few 7-9 lb. Eyes are gone.

5) The weeds are pretty much gone until the next spring. Ice fishing productivity has gone down severely.

Skibass, you could get a petition going with the people you fish the Muskie tournaments with.

Maybe they could spread the word to Muskie organizations, Bass organization and hard core fishing tackle stores. If a group does it there would be more meaning and political clout behind it. I would put on the petition to the DNR and other governing bodies- Statements of

1) What has been observed as far as timing, fishing affected, how long and when

2) Specific Measures that will satisfy needs-

A)Treating only matting areas,

B)Treatment of weeds on an as needed by water skiers, sail boaters and home owners basis with paths or large waterski areas as opposed to the wholesale destruction of all milfoil beds.

C) Timing of treatment to be later in the year to accommodate June fishing.

I know it has to be tough as Muskie and bass fishermen with the milfoil treatments, as they happen around the time of opener and shortly after. With walleye fishing I at least get the month of May to fish without the treatments.

[MN-FishGuy]

Mallardnwalleye: Just remember that those rates you mentioned for control of native plants such as Coontail, Narrowleaf Pondweed and Sago Pondweed are for large area/whole lake treatments. Not every treatment area would qualify as that, and individual home treatments would not qualify. The rates to control plants in small areas are much higher. To correct one thing, the rate in which Aquathol K controls Coontail in large areas is 2 to 3 ppm. It's really all about contact time, the longer the contact time, the lesser dose it takes to have some impact on plants. For Curlyleaf Pondweed, there is typically no need to worry about native plant impacts because treatments are generally done before natives are up and growing like you mentioned, however this year may be different and I could see how some natives could be affected, but they generally always rebound later in the year or the next year. Curlyleaf can never be eradicated, but it can be controlled to smaller, more manageable areas.

[maxpower117]

I say fight fire with fire. The DNR should put some rusty crayfish in there to take care of the weeds for all the lakeshore property owners.

[sheephead2]

Took this picture Monday..

never seen it this bad ever.

This lake has milfoil in it and we have a lake association.

We don't spray the lake...

[mrklean]

looks good to me

[mallardnwalleye]

Took this picture Monday..

never seen it this bad ever.

This lake has milfoil in it and we have a lake association.

We don't spray the lake...

Looks like a lot of algae on top of the milfoil. You must have a phosphorus run off problem. That Millfoil edge out there looks sweet to fish. The boat lift should have a path for it out though. The DNR lets you do that without a permit.

Imagine that lake without millfoil. It would look nice and antiseptic but I can't say I would want to fish it. Whatever happend to fishing the slop or the weed edge?

I hope you're not thinking of nukeing all the weeds there.

[jvm1]

This is completely off topic, sorry,

SkiBass, who organizes the muskiw tournament in Owasso?

I just moved to the area and would like to partake next year.

[MN-FishGuy]

This is an absolute horrbile year for Eurasian Watermilfoil, it is bad everywhere. The mild winter with little snowfall started the growth really early, its usually never this bad in June.