2 Different Types Of Browns Small Stream Wisconsin

[Driftless]

Lots of people automatically assume all brown trout in our waters are German browns.

In my opinion this not correct.

Brown trout were brought to the United States by European settlers in the holds of ships. The adult fish were no brought. The eggs were brought as food stuffs in big wooden barrels with a covering of water and moss to keep them fresh and cool. When the passengers got hungry, they reached in to the barrels and scooped out a handful of eggs and eat them as is. When the settlers arrived they saw that the area looked a lot like their homelands and put the eggs in to locals streams and that is how BROWN trout were brought here by settlers. They are not a native species.

There are 2 strains of browns brought here originally. One is from Scotland and specifically from one lake there. It was lake “Loch” number eleven “Leven”. The strain from Scotland are called Loch Leven Browns. Loch Leven browns are typically longer and skinnier than their German cousins. They have fewer spots and do not have red spots.

Trout with classic “Loch Leven” characteristics

The German brown trout is a little heavier and has red spots mixed in with the blackish brown spots.

Trout with classic “German” Brown characteristics

Through the years the 2 strains have intermingled and it is hard to say that this a German or this is a Scottish brown. They sometimes have traits that look like their ancestors. The only true way of telling which country the trout are from is check to see which is wearing “Lederhosen” and which has a “Kilt” on.

[itchmesir]

Loch Leven's taste more like Haggis.. While German browns taste like beer brats

[JIvers]

"Brown trout were brought to the United States by European settlers in the holds of ships. The adult fish were no brought. The eggs were brought as food stuffs in big wooden barrels with a covering of water and moss to keep them fresh and cool. When the passengers got hungry, they reached in to the barrels and scooped out a handful of eggs and eat them as is. When the settlers arrived they saw that the area looked a lot like their homelands and put the eggs in to locals streams and that is how BROWN trout were brought here by settlers. They are not a native species."

The "fish eggs in a barrel" anectdote is amusing, but there is no evidence to suggest it is true. Among other things, it would require people to collect fertilized eggs in large amounts to be stored in barrels, which is no easy task. If Brown trout eggs were collected as food, it would be easier to take them from butchered females, but those eggs would not be fertilized, and if the intent was to keep the roe as food, there would be no point to fertilizing them.

Brown trout were specifically ordered in the early 1880s by Fred Mather of the US Fish Commission to be stocked here:

http://www.cnyflyfish.com/

http://books.google.com/books?id=i2EfEVe...out&f=false

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/trout_main.html?device=other&c=y

Some fish were ordered from Britain, and hence came to be known as "English" browns.

Other orders of Brown trout were placed with hatcheries in the Alps. Since many of those hatcheries were in Austria, Switzerland, or Bavaria, the fish they supplied were known as "German" browns, since the hatchery managers in those areas spoke German.

[Driftless]

but there is no evidence to suggest it is true.

but there is no evidence to suggest it is not true.

I have seen in many different places in many different sources.

Are you a fish biologist?

[Driftless]

the eggs were brought over as food way before there was a request for stocking.

milking trout for eggs is hard and tedious. When trout are smaller it is very hard to tell

which is male and female. The people squeezing those trout often picked a male to

try to get eggs out of. The males smelling the eggs on harvesters hands were more

than willing to deposit some sperm when they smelled the eggs. I am going on

relatives of mine relating stories to other relatives. My forefathers are from Germany "Hahn"

and at family gathering the old tales are still shared about the old timers coming across in boats and

the milking of fish for eggs and inadvertent fertilization.

NO science involved.

[JIvers]

but there is no evidence to suggest it is true.

but there is no evidence to suggest it is not true.

I have seen in many different places in many different sources.

Are you a fish biologist?

The people who wrote those articles I cited, including that in the Smithsonian which is hardly a fly-by-night publication, are scientists. Are you?

I am a professional historian. In my profession, you need to provide actual evidence to support one's assertions. You have provided no evidence to support your tale about Brown trout being brought here as food, and being dumped in streams as an afterthought. I could spin a tale that Brown trout roe were brought on the feet of migratory birds blown off course, and it would be every bit as credible as your tale.

[JIvers]

the eggs were brought over as food way before there was a request for stocking.

milking trout for eggs is hard and tedious. When trout are smaller it is very hard to tell

which is male and female. The people squeezing those trout often picked a male to

try to get eggs out of. The males smelling the eggs on harvesters hands were more

than willing to deposit some sperm when they smelled the eggs. I am going on

relatives of mine relating stories to other relatives. My forefathers are from Germany "Hahn"

and at family gathering the old tales are still shared about the old timers coming across in boats and

the milking of fish for eggs and inadvertent fertilization.

NO science involved.

Do you have valid evidence of Brown trout being present in North America before the early 1880s? Where were these Hahn family Browns stocked before the 1880s? Can you provide any evidence that immigrants to this country actually stripped Brown trout eggs, used them as food, and then succesfully stocked them in North American waters before the early 1880s? Third-hand family anectdotes un-supported by scientific data are not reliable.

As for the "milking" of trout, as I noted it is far easier to get un-fertilized eggs from a female trout by killing her, if one is simply looking for food. Stripping live trout of eggs for food simply does not make sense, much less the story about accidental fertilization. Trout egg fertilixation occurs occurs in open water, and is a less than 100% succesful tactic then. And why strip that many eggs if you are not going to eat them all?

[Ufatz]

Don't want to seem argumentative, but sure would like to see some solid documentation to support your brief dissertation on brown trout. Am puzzled for a couple of reasons: first, of the thousand or so books I used to have i n my library on fly fishing and the history of the various species and methods I cannot recall reading anything similar to your post and don't recall seeing any discussions of two distinct species of brown trout.

How about a couple quick references to make me feel better. And better informed.

Thanks.

[reinhard1]

i believe there are three species of brown trout for sure or more just like there are more than one type of rainbow. the three i have heard of are the german brown, the loch leven brown [i believe that they have been cross bred as well] and there is also a sea run brown. the earliest i have seen that the brown trout arived in the US was in 1883. not an expert eighther. good luck.

[Ufatz]

I am puzzled by some of your statements and only seek some clarification or source for them.

There are various strains of many fish; pacific salmon can often be traced and identified right back to their stream of origin. Please let us know where you learned that ".....people ate the trout eggs as food on the voyages over..." and where you came up with the Scottish species of brown trout.

I believe there is ONE brown trout but there may have been stocking in this country from various waters that contained brown trout.

Variations in coloration and markings are common in ALL species of fish.

I only ask you to let us know where some of your information comes from so that we may perhaps read further on the subject.

That's all.....just a request, not an argument.

[Ufatz]

reinhardt, they are ALL brown trout. See what I mean? Some come from Germany, some from Scotland and of course now introduced to this country in the 1880's. But they are all Salmo trutta. Rainbows come in a variety of colors and strains but are all onchyrincus mykiss (sp) which I believe has now been changed to onchrincus gairdenari (sp)by the fisheries scientists.

Since I don't believe any of us (at least so far) are trained taxonomists there is little point in debating some of the finer points of this stuff because you can go at it for days. Trust me......I know! Ha Ha

And I had never heard that sea voyagers ate the trout eggs for food on their way to this country but that some stuck in the barrels.

So ya see......a guy learns something every day!

[yotehuntr]

Ufatz, I haven't heard about the changing of the Rainbow Trouts scientific name. Do you have a link to a publication that I could look at?

I really believe that Len does believe this story that was passed down and tries to play it off like truth. I find it conveinient that "there is no scientific research" AFTER you call him out on it. Two things with his story throw up a red flag.

1) Males can't "smell" eggs on peoples hands. Pheromones are usually released into the water by females when they are ready to deposit, and the male picks up on them with his chemoreceptors. If by simply handling eggs could make a male deposit sperm, then our hatchery system would have no problem getting males to ripen up.

2) To ship fertilized eggs overseas you would not only have to keep them cool, but you would need to keep running water on them to provide oxygen so they don't die. A wooden barrel would not suffice, and by the time they got to the americas there would be no viable eggs.

[reinhard1]

instead of species i should have said like i did for rainbows, type's of, and i agree they are all browns. one thing i saw when i googled brown trout that the three i did mention had three different scientific names for each "type" of brown trout so they do put a different tag on them but they are all brown trout as you say. while reading further i also learned something new. while brown trout rarely cross breed, the Tiger trout is a cross between a brookie and a brown. that is a cool looking fish. good luck.

[JIvers]

instead of species i should have said like i did for rainbows, type's of, and i agree they are all browns. one thing i saw when i googled brown trout that the three i did mention had three different scientific names for each "type" of brown trout so they do put a different tag on them but they are all brown trout as you say. while reading further i also learned something new. while brown trout rarely cross breed, the Tiger trout is a cross between a brookie and a brown. that is a cool looking fish. good luck.

Yup, just think of the different types/"strains" of Brown trout, rainbow trout, etc., as different breeds of the same species. Golden labs and Chesapeake Bay retrievers don't look the same, just as German and English Brown trout don't look the same, but both Labs and Chessies are dogs, and will freely interbreed and produce fertile pups with traits of both parents. The same is true of the different strains of Brown trout.

[yotehuntr]

The same can be said for Rainbows and Steelhead. Both are O. mykiss and they are genetically similar, but Steelhead are an ocean run Rainbow with many different strains.

[Ufatz]

Yotehunter, the change I mentioned to the name for rainbow trout may not have taken place. I KNOW it was being discussed. Do a search on any fisheries biology site and see what you come up with. It may have finally been the change was only applied to sea run rainbow trout (steelhead). The discussions involved Can. Japanese and US fisheries scientists as I recall. But I AM getting a little older and may not remember it all perfectly. Ha!!

I really do not mean to provoke arguments in the forums but I become mildly irritated when people post information that is unverifiable or simply incorrect and apparently due so routinely and repeatedly for some perverse personal pleasure.

We can ALL post something incorrect from time to time and that is simply a mistake corrected with an apology.

If I get time I'll poke around and determine whether that name change actually took place. As you say, it has been my kiss forever.

[Ufatz]

Quick call to one of my old pals in Juneau. Here's the info:

Onchorynchus mykiss-broadly, all rainbow trout.

Onchorynhus gairdneri-Columbia R. rainbows only.

Onchorynchus irideus-steelhead (rainbow) trout

There was a lot of confusion about the various "strains" etc. and which could be defined as sub-species and which could not. At one time there was on the table the gairdneri, strongly supported and I thought approved finally. Not so.

As I said......age is beginng to rot some portions of my mind. I'm starting to look a little like a humpy two miles upstream in July!! Har dee Har!! If you ain't seen it you won't get it.

Have fun fellas. And now I'll go back to work designing a [PoorWordUsage] filter for the trout forums. LOL

[yotehuntr]

Quick call to one of my old pals in Juneau. Here's the info:

Onchorynchus mykiss-broadly, all rainbow trout.

Onchorynhus gairdneri-Columbia R. rainbows only.

Onchorynchus irideus-steelhead (rainbow) trout

There was a lot of confusion about the various "strains" etc. and which could be defined as sub-species and which could not. At one time there was on the table the gairdneri, strongly supported and I thought approved finally. Not so.

As I said......age is beginng to rot some portions of my mind. I'm starting to look a little like a humpy two miles upstream in July!! Har dee Har!! If you ain't seen it you won't get it.

Have fun fellas. And now I'll go back to work designing a [PoorWordUsage] filter for the trout forums. LOL

Okay you have shed some light on the subject for sure. O. mykiss gairdneri is used for Columbia River Redband Trout which is a subspecies of the Rainbow Trout.

[Ufatz]

You got it precisely.

Now......what's next?

Ha!!

[hookncook]

I've also read that in the early 70's the DNR transfered some trout from great lakes tributaries to this region and that is why there are so many big browns in the Kickapoo. I'm not sure where I read it, and I can't seem to find it in google.

I'm not sure how trout eggs can survive an oceanic trip, let alone fertle eggs. I've seen this same post in a couple other forums. Is this guy some sort of arm chair trout expert?

[Ufatz]

Trout eggs were brought to this country by ship and the first brown trout were introduced in 1883 as I recall. No...I wasn't actually there, that's the year that sticks in my mind from some historic reading on the subject.

No one can figure out why the OP offers his strange posts with distortions and confused information but it must give him some pleasure.

Just be alert fellas.

And don't trust anything you read on the internet!! Check for yourself.

Except for MY posts of course! LOL

[hookncook]

Pretty interesting read