A Point of Reference Please

[sjuduckhunter]

I am looking for a point of reference and some advice if anyone has some please! I have a 5 month old lab mix of some sort. Got it from the pound (probably ill-advised for a hunting dog, I know). She has a lot of lab in her, but her appearance suggests there is something else also, but I don't know what. I have had her for about 2.5 weeks now. I have watched Water Dog DVD and am trying to impliment that technique. I am working on obedience almost exclusively now since we lost that time with us when she was a puppy, and she is testing her boundaries A LOT.

My questions are: 1. She seems to be losing interest in the "bring it back" part of retrieving. When we first got her she was good and very interested in retrieving. Does her lack of interest now indicate that she is testing her boundary with that as well or is it a sign of her not having enough retrieve in her genes? 2. Watching water dog is good and the methods are useful, but you are watching a well conditioned dog at work. There is very little in terms of what to do if your dog is mis-behaving. How do you correct misbehavior? Specifically how do you correct it or obtain the desired result when she is not in school? Example, come when called. She knows what it means, she is just choosing not to come from across the yard.

I would like to hear some of your experiences in what worked and what didn't. I am going to do my best to wake up the retriever in her and if she just doesn't have it then I learned. But regardless I want her to be obedient.

Thanks all.

[PGE-Hound]

I have been having similar problems with my lab. She nows the commands just doesn't want to obey them. I think it comes down to stict obedience. They have to learn that you are the alpha and when you say come or heal thats what they have to do.

I have stopped throwing dummies alot and going back to the basics; sit, stay, come and heal. When I do throw a few dummies I do a session of obedience before hand so she knows that this is training and not play time. I hope some of this helps and I am looking forward to others comments. Good topic!

[Todd Caswell]

To be honest Waterdog is very outdated training material, I would recomend a more up to date training proogram, Fowl dogs with Rick Stawski is a affordable and easy to follow program with REAL dogs at that stage of there training.

[Walleye Widower]

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[sjuduckhunter]

Good information. Walleye Widower, I really appreciate your point of view and take on this. I am a guy that was saying, "I'm not going to carry food around with me, and the dog will only listen when you have treats." So, I am interested to hear more from someone who used treats as a way to start. If you don't mind I would like to pick your brain some more. If you are willing I have some more questions for you. Email me at [email protected].

What worries me a little right now and by what I mean by testing, is this pup's tendency to not want to come when called when she is across the yard and interested in something else. I have a big yard and let her cruise around off of a leash or chain when I am out there with her. I know she hears me and I know she understands me, but she is ignoring me. Even though she is a pup I think she should still come on my terms and not hers. I make it as positive and exciting for her whenever she does come hoping she will think, 'hey, it is fun to come when that guy calls me.' What has everyone else done to get their dogs to come when called?

Anyone else have ideas on how to get their dog pumped about retrieving and training?

[Walleye Widower]

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[Todd Caswell]

One thing to pointout here ( no direspect to WW ) but he is not training retrievers or potential hunting dogs, I still recommend a PROVEN RETRIEVER TRAINING PROGRAM like the one listed above for training a retriever from basic OB through transition.

Im all for food training with a little pup but we start formal OB at around 6 monthes followed by FF and collar conditioning. If I waited untill they were around a year we'd be WAYYY behind the game.

[Todd Caswell]

Here's a short video of the dog in my avitar when he was around 13 monthes old running a double with remote wingers, I would do this (video) from time to time to watch his line manners and so I could watch myself handling and mistakes I made.

Just to reasure the original posters concerns about not wanting to come back with the bumper, keep in mind this dog was absulutly terrible about comming back with a bumper when he was a puppy, he had a long line on him from the time he was 12 weeks old untill we finished collar conditioning. So it's not a big deal but it does limit what you can do with a young dog when you have to have a rope on them.

[gr8icefishinmind]

That was an impressive video!!! So what training video do you recommend and what training video did u use for guidance when training?

[Todd Caswell]

Thanks, I recomend the Fowl Dawgs series Rick Stawski of Fineline Retrievers, I can't post a link here but just do a search. Like I said it's a very affordable DVD set and it's easy to follow whether your trainig a hunting dog, hunt test dog or Field trial dog, all the steps are the same.

That video was shot shortly after "Bodey" got back from the winter trip with Rick.

[hanson]

I've tried to share my experiences as a new lab puppy owner since I got Morgan on these forums, as I'm not sure how much "rookie" information is floating around here. Lots of breeders, trainers, and knowledgeable folks but not too many guys who have never ever owned a dog and just picked up their first one willing to talk.

Definitely is a difference between a knowledgeable dog owner with a new pup and a rookie dog owner with a new pup, and I think that comes doing to knowing what to expect next and how to deal with it. I've always felt that I'm 1 step behind with him where someone who's owned a dog before knows whats coming and how to deal with it. I've also felt I've always been trying to correct a behavior rather than encouraging and developing one. Like I said... a step behind.

When Morgan was little, he loved to fetch but lost interest in a hurry. He's 10 months now. Lets just say that its ALL he wants to do. Thats it, he wants to fetch and thats about it. I would venture to say that if your pup is a bit interested in it, you'll eventually hit that day where thats all she wants to do.

I started formal OB (at a training center) at 6 months and that was the best thing I did so far. Not knowing anything about training, this gave me a direction. We now work sit, stay, come, healing, wait, down and a lot of on leash handling regularly. I'm now at the point where some of these commands are automatic. "Sit"... boom the butt is on the ground right now! Love it!

You need to start training "come" on the leash at a short distance (6' or however long your short leash is). Give the "come" command, if the dog doesn't come, tug on the leash and get them moving your direction. Food/treats do work great for training this. Once you get the command down within a short distance, start increasing the distance but your dog will also need to know wait/stay so they stay put when you leave them. I'm working on "come" now from across the yard, sometimes behind stuff, and turned the other direction so he needs to come to my front and face me when I command "come". Its fun but you have to start out easy, and reward praise them greatly every time they do it right. Not sure how you could expect a dog to learn "come" without building up to it. I was also taught that "come" MEANS "come" and is a formal command. "Come here boy", "Come on", etc, etc and variations of "Come" are informal and used differently.

Our next big step is birds and guns. I'm sure this won't be easy either as nothing else has been. I know Morgan isn't afraid of the lawnmower and even the miter saw (which is incredibly loud) so we should be able to make the transition to guns pretty easily.

Nother thing that was mentioned earlier was to leave a leash on her. I don't do this entirely all the time but my Morgan doesn't even know he has it on anymore, inside or outside the house. Whats great about it is if you want to do a quick short command, you can just pick the leash up and he knows you are going to do something. So you can start out with some training utilizing the leash and then transition to not utilizing it. I started doing this because my neighbors wanted me to but its turned into a great thing. Like I said... new dog owner here.

[Walleye Widower]

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[gr8icefishinmind]

Well......I am one of those rookies with a puppy! The pup is now 4 months old and I have been taking things slowly up to this point but have been working on the main commands such as sit, heal, stay and so on! Sit was an absolute piece of cake with the pup, did it using a slight tug up on the leash and a quick pat on the hind end and after a few days he was doing it on command every time!

But anyways, next month me and pup go to obedience training and am really looking forward to it! I think it is going to help me get to know my dog more and vice versa and it should do wonders for the puppy! I have noticed that he is a very fast learner but i want to make sure that i am teaching the right way as well! In todd's video i noticed how his dog was quick to sit right by his side and todd was able to position him how he wanted, that gave me chills when i saw that cause i really want my dog to trust me like that and listen like that! I feel that he trusts me now but not quite fully yet, which i think will come with OB training!

[Acemac]

great vid!

[sjuduckhunter]

Walleye Widower, you can go take that leap now.... I'm just kidding. Seriously, I really appreciate everything that has been written. This is the first puppy I have had so I am sure I am looking at her under a microscope, and as the title of this thread suggests, I was looking for a point of reference from some other dog owners.

Since my original post I have noticed changes for the positive even though it has only been 2-3 days. I am trying to keep training sessions short (in the 15 min) range twice per day while on the leash. She learns her commands fast and seems to be listening. When it is not "training" time I have worked on some of the basic commands here and there to reinforce what we learned in training and she remembers them. I seem to have her pretty fired up about the dummy and fetching. Over the last couple days she has been much better at bringing the dummy back. I think I can attribute that to keeping the retrieves very short...like 10 yards.

What has everyone found to work the best to keep the dog's attention on you during training sessions? I have used treats, but even then she seems more interested in the leaves and pine cones! Also, what techniques have you all used to teach heal? Heal has been the one she is slowest to pick up on, and the one I feel needs to come next in the process.

Lets hear some more about what has and has NOT worked for people. The more reference the better!

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

Also, what techniques have you all used to teach heal? Heal

I know this is going to be different than WW but this is what I do with a dog around 6 monthes of age, choke chain and a 6 foot rope start walking when the dog decides to go one way I turn and go the other way while giving the rope a slight tug and saying HEEL, through repitition the dog will learn to pay attention to your movements and turns.

[Walleye Widower]

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[Todd Caswell]

Interesting video's, like iv'e said befor there can be valuable information picked from all dog venues, I try to read and watch as much as I can.

When you posted those I was trying to find this one, again this is a very young dog and it looks a bit clumsy. In the retriever games "Here" and "Heel" are very important when your at the line and you want to make sure your dog see's that long hard to see gun station. "Here" is pulling the dog towards you (Leg Pat) "Heel" is pushing the dog away from you (finger snap), and over time those big clumsy movements turn into eye and head movements.

There is some pressure involved in training the way we do E- Collar, stick, and rope pressure but as you can see the dog is very happy to work and isn't stick or collar shy and certainly hasn't ever "run" away. The key is maintaing a good training attitude, this dog is pretty animated so it's easy but some dogs can get bogged down, so you really need to keep things in ballance or you end up with a pouty dog thats no fun to train or watch.

[BLACKJACK]

Also, what techniques have you all used to teach heal? Heal has been the one she is slowest to pick up on, and the one I feel needs to come next in the process.

Lets hear some more about what has and has NOT worked for people. The more reference the better!

I'm on my fourth lab and I've taught heel by just lots of time on the leash, walking around the yard, walking around trees, etc. - heel, heel, snap of the leash, heel. If you have the dog on your right, and you walk around a tree to your right, they soon learn that beside you is lots better than out front getting stepped on. Repitition. A little bit every day, Sit, Heel, Stay. Lots of praise when they come to you after sitting and staying until you call them.

When they get older and bigger and they know what heel means, I put a prong collar on them, and when I say 'Heel', give a tug on the leash, they're surprised the first time but it works great. I like the prong collar lots better than a choke collar!!! It looks wicked but all it does is squeeze their neck, a choke collar can hurt their neck. One of my pet peeves is seeing a person walking their dog and the dog is out front pulling them along. A prong collar will solve that in a hurry!!

I want it so when I'm walking with my dog on a leash, at heel, when I swing my arm while I'm walking, when it hits the backstroke its just tightening the leash. Eventually I move to heeling practice off the leash. A practical hunting application for that is jump shooting ducks or walking up to a pheasant spot in the middle of a field, I can make my dog heel with a minimum of noise vrs my brother who has to fumble for a leash ("here hold my gun"!!!) and then try to get the leash off later. Drives me crazy but it was a lack of training on his part.

I give my six year old lab refresher courses on heeling, it doesn't hurt.

One of my favorite pictures is in one of Walters books and he has a small puppy tied to a door knob, barking and carrying on with the caption "life is not a bowl of cherries". Seems cruel but they need to learn that fighting the leash is a waste of time.

Good luck!!! Puppies are fun!! Enjoy!

[Walleye Widower]

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[sjuduckhunter]

This is not a training question. What does everyone do with their young pups when you are at work during the day and during the night while you sleep? Do they have the run of the house? Do you crate them? Outdoor kennel? Outdoor chained up? In your opinion does where you keep the dog when you can't be with them have an effect on their development and/or obedience?

[gr8icefishinmind]

For my job I am an on the road salesman meaning I am away from home all day and put on alot miles throughout the days each week! I actually bring my pup with me on my sales routes and he sits shotgun! He actually enjoys it quite a bit although towards the end of each day I can tell he is ready to be home. We usually make 3-4 "pit stops" throughout the day for potty breaks for him and also to go on a few short walks or play fetch for a while! When we get home he eats and then we go for a couple mile walk, while on the walk I stop at each intersection and have him sit and stay for a few moments then give him the "okay" and we continue! After the walk and being outside for a while after, he usually comes in and hangs out in the living room and usually falls asleep on the couch by about 8 or 8:30 then he goes in the crate for the rest of the night!

I think the fact that he spends the days with me even if it is just riding along helps our relationship alot, although sometimes i wonder if there is such a thing a spending too much time with the pup??

[JayinMN]

Quote:

This is not a training question. What does everyone do with their young pups when you are at work during the day and during the night while you sleep? Do they have the run of the house? Do you crate them? Outdoor kennel? Outdoor chained up? In your opinion does where you keep the dog when you can't be with them have an effect on their development and/or obedience?

I put mine in a crate at night when they are puppies. It helps with house training and prevents them from chewing inappropriate things. At the same time it also teaches them my routine and gets them on the same schedule. I do incorporate a little obedience, they are taught "kennel" which means get in your kennel and when they are let out they have to "stay" till I open the door and call them out. I don't want them charging out the door and pushing it open. Most of my dogs have been ready for free reign of the house by the time they were a year old. They get lots of exercise though and are not bored.

I also have a kennel outside they can go into while I am not home. I use the same commands "Kennel" and "stay" if I have a bouncy pup I will make them "sit" before I open the door and let them out.

I would never tie a dog outside with out supervision. I know too many dogs who have died on them.

[JayinMN]

Quote:

think the fact that he spends the days with me even if it is just riding along helps our relationship a lot, although sometimes i wonder if there is such a thing a spending too much time with the pup??

I don't think so as long as he is well adjusted enough to allow you to leave with out having a major melt down. Chances are he would just go to sleep in his crate and wait for you to return. Surely you must leave him a lone sometimes. What does he do?

[gr8icefishinmind]

He has no problem being home alone as far as i have seen! I trained him to use his crate as soon as i got him so he seems to like his crate just fine and will go right in with the "kennel" command! I have a hard time with the thought of leaving him in his crate all day while i am at work! When i leave him alone in his crate if i run errands or something like that i usually come home to find him snoozing in his crate! I am definetly glad that i did the crate training right away and got him used to it!