BASS OPENER!!!!!!!!!

[wastewaterguru]

So here's the situation....

You're out in your boat and you see some guy flippin a worm into some shallow weeds and you open your mouth and tell him he's an one-who-thinks-I-am-silly for breaking the law......what's gonna happen next?

A. He's gonna say "yes sir, you're correct. What was I thinking." Then he packs his rod and goes home nicely.

B. He's gonna say "f*** you azzhole." And you and him get into a heated argument until you both yell yourselves out of breath and he keeps flippin his worm.

C. He's gonna say "f*** you azzhole." And you and him get into a heated argument until you actually [PoorWordUsage] him off and he kicks your azz. Then he keeps flippin his worm.

D. He's gonna say ""f*** you azzhole." And you and him get into a heated argument until he pulls out his handgun and blows you away. Then he goes home and goes back the next day to a different lake to flip his worm.

E. You do what the law tells you to and contact the proper authorities instead of trying to take the law into your own hands and all is well.

Is A gonna happen.....I think not. Should you assume that D isn't gonna happen.....I think not.

Yes we need to worry about how to enforce the law, because suggesting that people confront a lawbreaking criminal in the act of breaking the law is simply NOT a good idea. Let's use our brains here.

I agree Duffman that each person has to decide for themselves......

But I just think there needs to be a better enforcement policy to create some consequences that will make people think twice about it.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 05-23-2002).]

[Guest]

Fish and game management is useless without a corresponding arm of enforcement. Both Minnesota and Wisconsin have left CO posts open on retirement or other reason for vacancy. Think of this one -- Wisconsin puts 700,000 hunters in the field for deer opener. If they took every single CO (field and office) they'd have an enforcement contingent of 170 officers.

Most counties in Minnesota are served by one CO. Face it, we need to make noise. We've got needs in the MDNR that are going unfulfilled -- no matter how you cut it, that's false economy.

[Guest]

I'm glad to see the controversy, I've stired up. Note to Clayton. I do not advocate breaking the law. But when I was out fishing for pike with that spinnerbait and the guy on the dock said something to me, it was him breaking the law and not me. Angler harrasement is against the law and far more common than fishing for bass out of season. In fact, I think I could make the case that saying something to the "lawbreakers" is angler harrasement and also illegal.

No one seems to be challenging my contention that that fishing for bass on the beds does not hurt the fishery if they are immediatly released. Note to one of the posts: The hawgs which are females do not guard the nest or fry, the smaller males do that. Females will lay eggs with several males throughout the spawning area. Some of those nests will be in deeper water and in area's you would hardly expect. And I think it a true statement that most of the actual spawning activity takes place under cover of darkness.

There was an In Fisherman article a while back that referenced a study about fishing for bedding bass. The study found that in most cases if a male bass was immediatly released back into the water. The nest would most likely go undisturbed unless a pack of preditors were already agressively hounding the nest and ready to pounce.

No one challenged my true assertion about Sylvia/Twin where the bass start bedding and spawning after the season opens. That lake is phenominal for bass, how can that be?

Clayton's remark about the WI muskies is irrelavant to a discussion on bass. Totally different species and dynamics. Bass are far more prolific, adaptable, hearty, and catchable.

The law is a "bad" law in that it protects little, is unenforceable and therefore not worth the CO's time, and I would say it unecessarily burdens my "right" to hunt and fish which is constitutionally guarenteed in MN.

I hope anyone pinched for such a violation will be willing to hire a lawyer and challenge the law on such grounds. I think with a good lawyer, it would be a winner and then I would not have to go to WI to fish for bass in may.

[Guest]

A note to those who called this practice "poaching." I think you are using the word in an unwarrented manner. Actually keeping fish out of season would qualify, but you are saying that catching a fish out of season is to "poach."

I will not let you weasel by saying the poaching is in the "intentionality" of the angler. All anglers intend to catch whatever bites the lure or bait. Now you may be targeting a specific type of fish, but you are still after fish and must be aware that there is no surefire system that limits the type of fish that may be caught. This assertion of mine is proven daily and hourly when a fisherman catches not what they are after.

Here is an interesting dilema to think about? Are anglers on Mille Lacs poachers because the vast majority of the fish caught are not in the slot. The shear percentages and numbers of fish caught through live bait tactics almost certainly dictate that at least as many non-slot fish will die as slot fish. Those terrible walleye fisherman, don't they know what they are doing to the resource by skirting the law over agaist protecting the fish.

To those who are not blockheaded, the analogy is pretty good. A dead walleye is a dead walleye whether or not it's on your stringer. A caught fish is a caught fish whether or not you intended to catch it or target it or not.

One place where the analogy breaks down is that the slot is actually enforceable as that a fish can be measured, where what the fishman wanted to catch with that plastic worm cannot. At least with the slot the Co's are not hamstrung.

Poaching is not applicable if you throw the fish back and some other fish is in season.

[Duffman]

BassPastor....

"Angler harrasement is against the law and far more common than fishing for bass out of season."

I Doubt it.

"In fact, I think I could make the case that saying something to the "lawbreakers" is angler harrasement and also illegal."

They are not fishing, they are poaching

"The law is a "bad" law in that it protects little, is unenforceable and therefore not worth the CO's time, and I would say it unecessarily burdens my "right" to hunt and fish which is constitutionally guarenteed in MN."

Where is the burden? Other than you don't get what you want and when you want it.

You ever watch the bed after you hook into one of those males? Or are you to busy having fun landing the bass. Don't take long for a bunch of sunnies to fill themselves up with eggs and fry. I've seen it firsthand, and yes, it was after the season had opened.

[Duffman]

BassPastor....
In my opinion, purposly violating fish and game laws is poaching.
The Mille Lacs dilema has no substance, they are targeting walleyes, if they are not in the slot they are let go, if they die after that then yes, they are dead. But no fishing laws were broken.

[cwmn]

wastewaterguru, I hope you're not raising any kids, and if you are I hope they never rob me.
Have you ever been ice fishing in March and caught a Walleye? Crappie fishing in the spring and caught a Bass? Pulled a northern up in early April? Did you turn yourself in?
Everyone has to let thier own consience (sp) guide them. Hopefully when you're left alone with the cookie jar you will leave it alone.
Most of the southern states have year round bass seasons, maybe the colder climate makes it more important to have a closed season up here.
In the end we will all know if we did good or not.
A law is a law and should be obeyed, if you don't like it run for office and get it changed.

[Guest]

Duffman first,

I think I have probably spent more time fishing bass in clear water and observing the process than you. If there is a pack of sunnies just waiting to move in on the bed than those fry are as good as dead anyway. Because one sunny will get the bass to chase it and leave the nest. Thereby allowing other sunnies to feast. In a lake with a lot of sunfish the bass that beds in a bad spot gets most if not all there fry eaten, that's how natural selection works. It's better off to help those fry not surrive as that they have a stupid father.

My right is burdened because as a law abiding citizen my right is infringided without a good basis. There is no biological reason that pre-spawn bass should be protected. An unenforceable subjectivly based law is bad law.

As for angler harassement, It is very common, but that is a subject for another day.

[fishfearme]

Can't we all just get along, only 28 hours to go.

[Guest]

OK, here's how may last call went -- I got some woman in a Brainerd office who said they were too far away to do anything, but she would give me the number of the warden in my area. Called that number and got a recording telling me to call the TIP number, which I had called in the first place.

Finally talked to the warden later and he said there was nothing he could do unless the anglers had bass in possession. That was it.

[wastewaterguru]

CWMN,

I would like to be the first to warn you that personal attacks are not tolerated on this site.

That being said.......robbing a bank in the context of knowing there is no enforcement is NOT by definition "breaking the law".

From Websters:

Law: "all the rules of conduct established and enforced by the authority, legislation, or custom of a given community, state, or other group."

please note that it says established and ENFORCED.....

Without enforcement it is NOT by definition a law.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Guest]

Sorry Guru -- You can't go to Webster's for that kind of definition. A law exists by virtue of legislative action (which also extends into executive and judicial under the umbella of legislative authorization).

A statute (or ordinance) is law, as is an executive order, or judicial dictum. When you speak of enforcement you are addressing the problem of "teeth" in a law. That is precicely what we're dealing with here. The law exists that bass season is closed, but game wardens exercise little interest in enforcement. But the law is clear -- bass season is closed.

What is different about police work, unlike other forms of formal organization, is the fact that the greatest discretion exists at the lowest levels. Police can decide not to invoke the law. That is, they can look the other way. Discretion makes policing controversial. I might get nailed for using an extra line, but the guy targeting and catching bass goes unrestrained. It's easier for the CO to prove I had two lines in the water -- even tho I may have had no other violations (limit restricitions, etc.).
I could argue, as Basspastor attempts, that there's "no harm" to the resource in my using the extra line -- BUT, it is against the law and I am responsible for the violation.

Most laws at local, state, and national levels are "selectively enforced," and authorities will argue that is necessary because of limited resources. Enforcement, with all due respect to Webster, is NOT a requirement for being law.

[Duffman]

BassPastor....
This blockhead has fished 218 days from 99-01, and 30 days so far this year. So I might have some experience that comes close to yours. And in all those days that I have fished, I can only remember once or twice where the matter of angler harrasment MAY have occured. Maybe you put yourself in situations where angler harrasment occurs more often.

The male will chase a sunny off and then return to guard the nest until he chases the next one. That is the natural process, but when someone is "pike" fishing with a rubber worm and drags the fish off the bed for an extended stressful time, the offspring will suffer greater losses than normal. Plus now you have a worn out fish that might not be able to do his duty to the best of his ability.

People must get a lot of break offs when fishing for "pike" with a rubber worm because as far as I can tell they always forget to put on a steel leader. Did you have a leader on when chucking that spinnerbait for pike? The first two weeks of the season I usually have one on if I'm throwing spinnerbaits targeting pike.

With the late spring this year, there will be plenty of bass both male and female yanked off the beds and harvested. I know of a guy up on Ham lake that just loves to put 4-7lb. bass in the smoker. Just be happy that the fish you love to catch has caught on with the C&R group. Plenty of meat hunters out there that still love eating a 5lb. bass, something I prefer not to do, but if it's within the extent of the law I have no qualms.

Anyways, this has been fun to some extent. I wish you luck on the opener tomarrow. Have fun, throw some back, or keep 6 if you really want to.

[wastewaterguru]

Hey guys,

I have never put a leader on a spinnerbait in my life. Fish don't get the whole bait in their mouths. Just the skirt.

You're correct Clayton about the definition. I was just trying to make a point. No I wouldn't rob a bank. But if the police turned their heads the way the CO's do to this issue....I'd sure bet that someone would.

That was a pretty fun and informative thread and managed to stay pretty much "in" bounds.

Unfortunately I won't be out for opener because my wife and bank-robbing children ( ) and I are going camping.

Good luck to everyone and I'll see you on the pond.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 05-24-2002).]

[Duffman]

The only reason I put a leader on for the first couple weeks is that there may be less of a question as to what species I target. Do I catch bas? Of course I do, but they go back in the water just like the pike do. I have lost a few spinnerbaits to pike.

WasteWaterGuru...
Ya gotta try for the bigger pike, those hammerhandles are the ones that usually can't get past the skirt. LOL

[wastewaterguru]

I've caught a few 8 and 10 pounders without ever losing a fish to broken line. I have 14 pound braided line on my baitcasters and I'm sure that helps. Maybe I've just gotten lucky. The leader probably would help your case but it doesn't sound like they would try to get ya anyway.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[huskminn]

I, myself, have always had difficulty getting past the skirt......

Most of the states west of MN have no seasons for game fish, except perhaps in isolated locations where spawning fish are susceptable to overharvest (creeks, rivers).

I have heard the MN DNR quoted as saying that the fishing seasons in MN are more based in tradition than they are in biology.

This "Fishing Opener" thing was a new experience for me when I moved to MN. I didn't even understand what a fishing season was.....I had never heard of such craziness. I couldn't see what the big deal was on opener...everyone always complains about the weather, the fishing is often not good and it is the most crowded day of the year on the water. Finally, I understood that people didn't go because the fishing was great, they go because it's tradition.

Well, I know someone who lives 5 hours from here who's been bass fishing for over two months now. When they start to spawn, he'll lay off for a while to give them rest. Perhaps if MN wasn't so restrictive with it's seasons, poeple wouldn't feel the need to fish for spawning bass.

Have a great time on Bass Opener, folks.

[Guest]

Duffman hit it right on the head!! By pulling those fish off during a time when you are not supposed to, you upset the natural balance!!

It's like PETA saying it's bad to control animal populations through hunting. We as humans have taken natural habitat for our own use, habitat that used to support animals. It is our responsibility to control populations so that animals don't die from a more suffering death than a bullet through the heart!!

To sit here and say that because a law goes unenforced it's not breaking the law, is ridiculous!! Why are we still trying to justify breaking the law?? It's the law!! Do your part to uphold it!!

[wastewaterguru]

"natural balnce" as defined by whom.

God....the DNR.....the government.....or you.

Yes catching spawning fish seems by common sense to be a bad idea in the long run, but bass are a very prolific species and will not be killed off as a species due to pressure during the spawn. States that have no rules on bass fishing seasons have lakes and ponds that are more populated than any of the ones up here. The colder water during the spawn helps these fish survive. Natural balance by my definition is when the bass learn to adapt and adjust their spawning patterns to handle the pressures put on them by early season anglers. Maybe God intended us to fish for them so they would learn to spawn in deeper water.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Guest]

In fishing, as in life, you would never know what you'll catch. There will be things which will totally amaze you when you pull your line in. Every cast is an advanture, every retreive is a surprise. All you can really hope for is to get one of your intended victims once in a while. There are certain techniques which will produce more of the things which you are after and less of the unintended intruders, and there are certain techniques which are considered specialties and are automatically linked to certain objectives. Unfortunately, every bait or lure which a northern will take is also loved by a largemouth. Either way, every tight line results in a happy angler.

[Guest]

The capstone to my position can be found in this weeks Bass Opener addition of the Outdoor News. They have an article from the MN DNR about Largemouth Bass. While I do not have it hear to quote verbatium it says in effect that the largemouth is an extremely proficient spawner and that research shows that spawning success is dicated by weather and habitat. The weather has to be extremely unfavorable over a long period of time or there has to be a lack of habitat to prevent bass from proliferating. Those are the only two important factors mentioned.

The most amazing statement however was that research seems to indicate that it doesn't matter whether a large or small number of bass spawn, the hatch will turn out the same either way. This is because enough fry always survive even if the number of bass spawning is small. They will literally fill the system to the extent that the habitat protects them even if few fish actually succeed in the spawning process. That's amazing! This is why bass don't seem to suffer the hot and cold cycles so common to many other game fish (Crappies and walleyes). A good bass lake tends to stay a good bass lake year after year after year.

To the Duffman my Mille Lacs analogy does make sense. My point was not about legality but ethics. Of coarse it's against the law to fish for a fish out of season. That's what the letter of the law states. The spirit of the law and the slot is to protect the resource. My point is that the "letter" is highly imperfect in achieving the "spirit." Although as I noted the slot has the advantage of being enforceable and thereby of some use. It forces people to throw back fish that would otherwise go to the frying pan. The bass season however is a fatally flawed regulation.

Poaching is far to strong a word. Here's another analogy. Where the speed limit is posted as 55MPH it is by the "letter" illegal to go 56MPH. The "spirit" is to keep the roads safe. So does that make the driver who hits 57MPH under clear dry conditions guilty of vehicular negligence and reckless driving. By your the "law" is the "law" attitude, that is just what you think this person is guilty of in addition to the speeding. To be a light "speeder" caries no stigma, to be branded a reckless driver does. I do not believe the crime fits the description.

I am sure a big reason that CO's don't actively enforce this one is that the violation is not really viewed as a serious threat to the resource. Just like going 57Mph under clear conditions is not a serious threat to public safety.

[Duffman]

Basspastor....
I guess it just boils down to personal ethics. I prefer to follow the law as it was written. I have no need to find justifications to break a "fatally flawed regulation."

As for the angler harassment dilema, wow, I guess some people are wound up a little tighter than others."That boat came to close to me, and it interfered with my constitutional right to take fish."

Awwwww, you gotta go all the way to cheeseland to catch some bass. Things really must be tough for ya.

I'm done. I ain't changing your views and you are defineatly not changing mine or fooling me. Good luck on the water if you happen to get out this weekend. I'll be primarily after walleyes but I might take a shot at a bass or two. It just might be funner than taking a shot at Basspastor. LOL
It's been a very interesting and eye opening thread, I respect your views and what you have had to say, I might not agree but you have my respect.
Seriously, Have a good one.
Duffman

[Guest]

I've got too much to get ready for tomorrow, but must make one last observation -- to wit, Basspastor tips his hand by saying it is a burden on him because he cannot do what he wants to do. My my my. Poor immature fellow.

I suppose a natural corollary would be parking in the close-by handicap space, because one might "want to" park closer to the building. There are all sorts of "wants" that adult folk learn to deny.

And finally, this -- a 5 to 6 lb bass on a bed about five feet from my dock was caught today. I happened to be home and looked out the window when it ocurred. I can't be certain, but I believe the guy was going to keep it. He released the husky gal after I went out the door into my yard. Neither of us said a word, but my expression probably registered. About half an hour ago I checked to see if she was back on the bed. She was NOT.

[wastewaterguru]

Word.

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BASS SEASON IS UPON US.
Here Piggy, Piggy, Piggy.
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[Guest]

Two more things to Duffman. Angler Harrasement is an extemely broad catagory. Have you ever had another boat or PWC go screaming by you within casting distance? That is angler harrasement in it's most common form. Happens millions of times every summer. I rest that case.

As for the "out of season" law causing me an unecessary burden. You bet it does. If I want to bass fish in May than I have to drive to Lake Wapo. across the border not to Eagle Lake down the street. If I am a law abiding citizen, I get screwed for no valid reason except that some one-who-thinks-I-am-silly came up with a stupid restriction back in the day and enough lemmings are not willing to say, this is not right. In my argument against this dumb reguation, I haven't yet mentioned it's economic cost and I am not talking about myself here. Having the phenominal pre-spawn bite closed means less lure sales and trips taken. Those things add up to big dollars for business and gov. going to things other than the intrests and industry of sportsman.