Open Wound Forum

[Guest]

Huskminn and Wastewater,

You are both right on the money. Glad to see there are others out there who share the same feelings as I do. Communism is BIG government!!! The United States was founded on the opposite ideals. If PETA and all these other organizations want big government, then why don't they go back over the high seas!!!

Good Luck,
Rusty

[huskminn]

Rusty,

While you think that I'm right on, I don't want you to misunderstand the scope of my argument.

Obviously, practical Communism is big government.....no one can argue with that.

But, PETA does not equal Communism....the issue is more complex than just politics. I only wanted to reinforce the reality the PETA and similar groups ARE politically aligned on the left.

We can't send anyone overseas, Rusty. You're talking about your fourth generation next door American neighbor.

Reducing this discussion soley to an argument about big government will not serve us well. It's not important that the United States was founded on ideals opposite from those of PETA (well, actually it is, but I don't want to talk about constitutional protection). What IS important is that our specie, homo sapien, has survived on ideals opposed to those of PETA.

We can't use a fishing forum to talk politics.....only anti-PETA stuff.

[Guest]

Huskminn,

I agree that this is a fishing site, and should be used as such, but this issue is something that deals closely with our right to fish/hunt. These groups want nothing more than to eliminate that. But as you've mentioned, it goes much further than just animals, that's just PETA's first step at attempting to control EVERY American's life. The more they can control your life, the better they feel. They feel you are not responsible enough to take care of yourselves, let alone anything or anyone else. That's where BIG government comes into play, PETA thinks they should babysit us.

I don't want to send anyone overseas, but I can't stand the anti-American movement of today. What is wrong with being American? Organizations such as PETA, and the organizations they support ALF, ELF, and who knows who else, preach anti-Americanism with every breath. They talk of tearing apart the constitution, and replacing it with the ideals of England, and other European countries. My question is this. If America is SO bad, and Europe is SO great, then why don't they just pack up and leave?

When I began my research, I already hated PETA and most (notice, not all) other animal rights organizations. When I completed my research, I hated them even more. ALF and ELF websites are full of hate for the United States. They preach non-violent tactics, yet they use bombs and various explosives to carry out there VIOLENT acts. On ELF's HSOforum, you can actually down load a manual on how to make bombs, what to do if the FBI comes to your door, and other various directions.

I don't want to deport people, but I also don't want to be preached to by these radicals about how wrong it is to be American.

OK........... now let's go fish!!

Good Luck,
Rusty

[wastewaterguru]

I'm having fun now....

Proof to the Effects of Theoretical Apathy

Porthole to the Eventual Termination of All

People with no Excuse for their Thoughts and Actions!!!!!

Prisoners of Evil Thinking Azzholes

BUT NOW ITS TIME TO.........

Practice the Effective Techniques of Angling

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 05-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 05-17-2002).]

[SpikeRoberts]

Although I'm reluctant to weigh in, here goes. Contrary to the delusional paranoia that is the basis of many of the posts in this thread, this is not an instance of ideological warfare. It is, rather, a matter of practical politics. Don’t like what PETA is doing? Don’t blame them or the black helicopter flying-one world government-well educated-communist-democrat-left wing conspiracy. Blame yourselves. How many of you are willing to get off you’re a$$es and write to the NCAA telling them that you will no longer watch their basketball tournaments or purchase the products that sponsor them unless they rescind their synthetic basketball policy (and mean it)? PETA did it in this case and will do it again. How many of you have written or spoken with your MN State Legislator on the many fish and game related bills before the House and Senate this spring? How many of you are even aware of the status of the 3/16s Constitutional Amendment, the con-con bill (BTW the conference committee version repassed the House 128-0 this morning), the omnibus fish and game bill, or many others? Very few I suspect.

This is not an ideological battle folks. It’s about organization, participation, and public relations. We need to do more to take a proactive role insulating fishing and hunting from attacks rather reacting to them. We should be running image ads that demonstrate the many benefits fishing and hunting offers our State – economically, fishing and hunting pumps hundreds of millions of dollars into manufacturing, retail, transportation and tourism – environmentally, anglers and hunters do more to restore and preserve wildlife habitat and clean waters than all other groups combined. How do we get organized? Well, this HSOforum could be a starting place. Although its too late for this Legislative Session, I think we should petition Rick to start a Laws and Legislation forum where we can inform one another on the various issues before the policy-makers and the ways to contact them. We could also use this forum to inform one another of businesses that concede to the whims of PETA and use our collective force to threaten and carry-out boycotts. In our political and economic systems, numbers and dollars matter. If you can show that you’ve got both, people will listen.

PETA’s not anti-American folks, they’re using the great system the US has to offer in the way it was meant to be used; by participating in their own governance. We should too. Sorry for the length, the civics lesson, and the harsh words, but I’m really sick and tired of hearing a bunch of whining from people that won’t do anything about their problems.

[Guest]

Spike,
You are clearly very well versed on the matter. I find your views very enlightening, along with everyone elses. I think it's a great idea for Rick to start a political thread to be proactive in contaacting our representitivesI by e-mail and links. I think most of us consider ourselves as conservations in our own right. I would like to be more informed and more proactive to protect our sports and heritage. Thanks for the insight.

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Happy Fishn
Mike

[Guest]

Now there's the debate side of Spike that I appreciate. Not the one that showed up yesterday and got a thread deleted (my comments may have contributed to it deletion as well). Your point is well taken and very sharp.

Spike - BTW, email at home if you could. I'll try to get back to you tonight. I want to run something by you.

[email protected]

[huskminn]

Spike,

You are absolutely correct....well, at least about PETA's use of the American system of governance....I still have to disagree with you about the ideological side of things. All politics is based in ideology, although it is becoming increasingly more difficult to distinguish among some ideologies. PETA's not working so hard to forward their cause for the fun of it....they are trying to change the world...one basketball at a time.

I do send letters and/or e-mails or make occasional phone calls to representatives in a number of states. Voting matters, of course, but it is not enough to keep politicians where they said they were going to be.

That having been said, I should do more than I do. There used to be a "State Issues or Concerns" forum (or something like that), but as is often the case, once the initial hoopla is over, interest wanes and the forum becomes inactive....taking up MB's.

My problem with taking this another step is one of time and one of philosophy. I find it hard to glom on to any one group because there are always certain ideas that I don't agree with.....be it the NRA, Isaac Walton League, MN Deer Hunters Assoc....you pick the organization.

I guess that is why I have resorted to responding on my own and not through an organization. True, I am only one voice and I only have so much to give monetarily, but at least I feel like I am sticking to my ideals. I could be fooling myself, though.

I hope I don't come across as being a whiner....I'd like to think that I care more about the issue than that. However, and I say this with all honesty, if you view my postings as whining, then I need to figure out a way to communicate more effectively.

Thanks for the discussion, folks.

[This message has been edited by huskminn (edited 05-17-2002).]

[Jim W]

Huskminn,

If I recal correctly weren't you one looking for a partner for one of the LETS Events?

If so keep me in mind!

Jim

PS THANKS FOR KEEPING things civil people!

[Guest]

Spike,

You have mail!

[SpikeRoberts]

Huskminn,
Coupla things.
1) Certainly there is an ideological component to any political position. However, the way "ideology" has been presented here has been overly deterministic and quite franky too vague as a concept for any useful purposes. Perhaps that is why you find it "increasingly more difficult to distinguish among some ideologies." Moreover, attacking ideologies is politically and socially unproductive -- just as easily you've hastily generalized all of us lefties as black helicopter flying-one world government-well educated-godless-communist-democrat-left wing terrorists, I could generalize all righties as Klan sympathizin', Timothy McVeigh lovin', corporate pollluting, blah, blah, blah... you get the point. [PoorWordUsage]in' matches like these just build walls between people that have a social compact together and ultimately interferes with any meaningful dialogue; they also tend to conceal the fact that those with different positions on some (or even many) issues have very similar positions on others.

2) It's great that you've been actively involved in the political process. In the days of electronic communication, contacting your state representative is as essay as logging on to fishingmn.com. Although I suggested organization, I don't think that it necessarily has to be as formal as club membership. Surely, MDHA, NRA, the Ikes and others have varying positions on certain details, but there are some important issues that all of us share in common and thus could productively form coalitions if a decent communication network was established.

3)I wasn't directing the whining comment at any one person in particular. It was more of a comment about the general whine about PETA on this site. Since I joined this forum 7 months ago I've seen dozens and dozens of threads complaining about PETA -- I've seen less than a handful of threads advocating something really proactive towards improving the legal standing sportsman in this state and, to the best of my recollection, none suggesting anything to counteract PETA. I've had the opportunity to particiapte in several discussions on the ATV forum, and many of the guys in there disagree with what I have to say, but we've gotten past this ideological talk and I think have had some very worthwhile discussions (I think Dave, Benny, and Bornofice will agree with me on this one) so I know it can be done on this site.
Once again, I apologize for hangin' out on the soap box for so long. Let's get back to fishing

[Guest]

When PeTA can be labelled "left-wing," "fascist," "communist," and "socialist" all in one post, it is definitely time to get back to fishing.

I posted the note on NCAA basketball as an update interest item on what PeTA is up to. If folks really believe NCAA types and "all" colleges are so "liberal," then I submit they have not met many college coaches.

[Guest]

Impressive thought process throughout this post. Thank you for taking the time to write down facts and and your feelings about the PETA organization. I feel I learned something. I admit I am not an expert on all the different anti-human organizations. I do not pretend to know what our government is doing or thinking day to day. I also don't put any stock into what the media's opions are.

There are some great ideas here on how to maintain the American Sportsman's rights to love the land and water and our ideas on how to interact with and conserve it. Obviously we fisher/hunter people have to do more than just watch other adults intrude on our beliefs.

My belief is that all of us here on this forum were shown at an early age, how to fish and hunt, by parents, friends or relatives. We all had/have great times on the water or in the field. Our fore-fathers taught us and science acknowledges that humans are both carnivores and herbivores. Yes, you can eat meat. Imagine "our" world of only plant eaters....disaster. It would be only "right" to find more uses of our animal resorces, like leather and medical innovations. I am a plant and animal eater I take pride in the methods I use to obtain my food. I understand that conservation is a neccesity for the future. I believe my time and money better serves the preservation of fishing and hunting rights and conservation by promoting my beliefs among the youth.

We need a combined effort.
While some of us go take on those crazy plastic-ball-lovin hipocrits that can change thier minds when the wind blows. Others should focus our efforts on building a foundation within the kids on how to respectfully fish, hunt and conserve nature for the future.

Take a kid fishing!
Support Kids DU - Green Wings

"There's no such thing as the great indoors."

[fishinphyl]

I think MTfreezer has hit the nail on the head. We have to do it ourselves and teach our children. Showing horses we are no strangers to PETA and the other organizations. They have tried everything to stop shows including opening stalls at shows at letting the horses loose. This resulted in a large fight between geldings and stallions. Many were injured and others had to be put down. Finally someone explained to them what it costs to feed and care for these horses and how well they are cared for. If they were not show horses (which there are many thousands of these in the states) most people would get rid of them. Which meant the market would go down and these horses would become killer horses (horses sold for meat). That did silence a few of them. The one good thing that has come out of this is that it as forced the horse and rodeo associations to start patroling their own backyards. Sometimes people take showing horses, fishing, hunting etc. way too seriously and forget about the animals. But it should be up to us to take care of it not an association without all the facts and knowledge.

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Phyl

[huskminn]

JimW,

You must have me confused with someone else. Although I know I'd enjoy participating in the LETS Events, my travel schedule for work really cuts into my weekends and sometimes consumes them. It is very hard for me to plan things more than a couple weeks in advance. I am also spending more and more time working on a 2nd business. An organized schedule of events is not for me right now.

However, I consider it a compliment for you to offer to be my partner in a LETS Event. We have a better chance of hooking up for SE MN trout or smallies.....but we'll talk about that later.

Spike,

To your #1, regarding attacking ideologies: within this context, you are correct. Within other contexts, I disagree. However, we'd need a few hours to hash all that out, which we're not going to do here. By the way, who said anything about well-educated?

To your #3, regarding whining and such: Over the course of my adult life, it has become very evident to me that the MAJORITY OF AMERIANS are very willing to put forth an opinion on an issue that actually contradicts their advertised morals or politics.

Either they aren't really who they think or say they are or they don't grasp the logical, philosophical tie-ins that exist among or between issues. In other words, they are unwilling or unable to critically examine their own position on any given issue. In most situations, they cannot logically explain why they hold the opinions/beliefs that they hold.

I believe that this is why people are so quick to whine and/or generalize. If they took the time to really examine what it is they are saying, they may decide not to say anything at all, or perhaps even say something different.

I don't want anyone to think that I am specifically attacking them, because I'm not. Remember, I said the majority of Americans are as described above....that gives you all 49% wiggle room, so don't assume I'm talking about you.

That having been said, I know it is very difficult on this forum to lay out a solid argument. It takes time, space and a lot of work. In many ways, this isn't even the place to do that. If you check my posts, they are some of the longer ones, whether it's about fishing or politics. I always try to be thorough and I know that makes my posts long, tedious and often boring. In fact, I've noticed that I am often a Thread Killer. One post from me and the thread is dead. Can I market this skill?

I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, but I think I need to get back to fishing. I haven't even been out yet on open water--a situation in dire need of a fix.

[Jim W]

HUskminn,

Well, I'm often confused!! Oh well! However the Trout and smallmouth idea might clear things up for me!!

Keep the rods bendin'!!!

Jim W

[juggs]

Huskminn, In response to your 5/17 reply, that's the point I was trying to make. PETA's worldview goes way beyond just trying to protect animals. They have a classic postmodern phisosophy that says that truth is relative and anyone's opinion is as equally valid as anyone elses. That's the problem here. If our side of the argument doesn't have a basis for it's point, then the relativity thinkers of our age will come back with the classic, "that's just your opinion". That's why I brought the Bible into the question. Even though most people, unfortunately, discredit it as something less than what it really is, the Bible offers a perspective from the outside, something that isn't just someone elses opinion.

[wastewaterguru]

Juggs,

Explain to me in simple terms why you think the Bible ISN'T somebody's opinion. If it was accepted as the complete truth than there would only be one religion.

Nevermind....let's not go there!!!

Let's get back to PETA bashing.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Evenflow]

We can write and call our Legislators every single day of the year, We can stay increadibly informed and up to date on current topics and issues, but until we actually put people like us (sportsmen and sportswomen) in office that have our same beliefs and morals, we will always be fighting this uphill battle. We need to stop electing career politicians, teachers, professors and lawyers who aren't sportsman/women and CLAIM they are going to stand up for our rights. Instead we need to start electing Sportsmen/women that WILL stand up for our rights because they beleive in the same thing themselves. And by doing so, we can stop reading about all these issues in the paper, we won't have to stay informed about all of these topics because we know we have someone that is representing our best interests everyday not just when their party thinks it's a good way to get votes or stop the other party from taking credit. Then we could relax and worry about fishing, not laws and politics.

One last thought:
When was the last time a natural resource issue was voted on in the MN Legislature or the US Legislature, and you DIDN'T have to look in the paper to see how your representation voted?

You shouldn't have to, you should know how they voted when you look at the original issue...

Just my two cents...

Evenflow

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It's all just theory till you hit the water.

[huskminn]

Juggs,

I don't know what to say about your post.

A PETA person or supporter will most likely be unimpressed by an argument that identifies the Bible as the ultimate truth in the world.

I might believe in my heart that PETA folks are left-wing radicals, but, in a debate with them, it does no good to call them that. You categorize them (communist?) and they catagorize you (Bible thumper?) and you've allowed them to at least walk away with a tie. After all, both comments are just someone's opinion, right? How can anyone argue with that?

Instead of quoting the Bible, ask a PETA person what they like to eat. Then ask them how many animals were negatively affected in the growing, processing and transportation of their favorite soy-based product. How many animals were displaced and/or killed during farming? How many PPM of mercury were emitted into the air by the power plant that feeds the soy processing plant? How many gallons of fossil fuels were burned in getting that product to market? Did the train that transported the poly resin for the plastic soy-food packaging spark a small grass fire next to the track that killed a family of Mallard's? Did the truck hit a squirrel or some butterflies on the way? How many animals were killed or displaced in the drilling, pumping, spilling and refining of that oil? What animals used to live on the site of your favorite grocery coop and what wetlands were filled to make way for its parking lot? When you took the bus to get to the coop, did you ask if the driver ate sausage for breakfast that morning? You really should know, because your fare pays part of his salary which enables him to go out and buy meat to eat. Is your lifestyle more or less harmful to animals than mine?

I hope you get my point. Every human being that is currently breathing on this planet has animal blood on their hands.

I think quoting the Bible falls on deaf ears, Juggs. Not with me, but with "them".

[wastewaterguru]

Lets start our own lobbying group.....

Enraged Anglers Totally Against People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

E.A.T.A.P.E.T.A

Who's with me??

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Guest]

Guru,
I'm with ya, but aren't they a little gamey and stringy? Maybe if ya cook em right.

PS Why don't yu jump in the chat room for a bit.

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Happy Fishn
Mike

[wastewaterguru]

I feel guilty enough even posting at work.....maybe some evening.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota