Breeding

[TeamXtreme]

Drop me an email about breeding your red. My male is going to be 2 years old on March 30th, and will be going through all of the same certs as you just started, including the EIC. And yes, if I find that he is a carrier, he will be getting snipped.

I can send you pictures and his AKC details. He's gotten 2 legs towards his JR title and should complete that this spring... then the transition to SR starts...

He's a great hunting dog and a great family dog as well, so I think that he has a lot of the traits that you are looking for. Nice blocky head, dark red color, good hunter, smart dog (well... that's debatable depending on if you have food or not).

My email address [Note from Admin: Please read forum rules before posting again. Thank You!] Drop me a note and we can connect. I am located down in Savage, Prior Lake area.

[LABS4ME]

Been a few years since I've done an OFA exam. I always do a sedated x-ray... I feel you get a more accurate view. It is stated on the application wheter the animal was sedated or not, and have been told they use a more stringent evaluation of the x-rays on those that are not sedated. The dog is not using their muscles when sedated trying to hold the joint tight as when they are not sedated. You will also get a very clear picture when sedated vs. not as they will not be moving around. I ALWAYS use Dr. Fran Smith for my OFA x-rays. She is on the board of OFA and can give you a fairly deinitive evaluation in her office after the views are taken. I think it is in the $250 range for the x-rays and OFA application.

I've only done one adult dog for CERF and that was in 1990... so I do not know what the fee is for them. Puppies are relatively inexpensive... $20 - 30 dollars apiece when you bring the litter in.

Good Luck!

Ken

[311Hemi]

a very detailed and intelligent discussion in regards to breeding.

However no one has answered the most important question:

Any unusual breeding?

Like a Bulldog and a [PoorWordUsage]zu?

[DuckDog]

Drop me an email about breeding your red. My male is going to be 2 years old on March 30th, and will be going through all of the same certs as you just started, including the EIC. And yes, if I find that he is a carrier, he will be getting snipped.

I can send you pictures and his AKC details. He's gotten 2 legs towards his JR title and should complete that this spring... then the transition to SR starts...

He's a great hunting dog and a great family dog as well, so I think that he has a lot of the traits that you are looking for. Nice blocky head, dark red color, good hunter, smart dog (well... that's debatable depending on if you have food or not).

My email address [Note from Admin: Please read forum rules before posting again. Thank You!] Drop me a note and we can connect. I am located down in Savage, Prior Lake area.

looks like you cannot put email addresses up on here

[TeamXtreme]

Well, I guess that didn't work very well... Do a search for Lake Country Retriever Club. I am the VP on the board, so researching there should get you a way to get my contact information. You can look at "membership info" and Sid would have my contact info. Drop him a note, and he should be able to put you in touch with me.

sorry it seems like a really round about way to put people in contact, but giving more info violates the rules on this forum.

[Dan189]

Originally Posted By: Dan189

a very detailed and intelligent discussion in regards to breeding.

However no one has answered the most important question:

Any unusual breeding?

Like a Bulldog and a [PoorWordUsage]zu?

Nah, mostly just doggie-style.

Just a little breeder joke.

[311Hemi]

LOL! Missed on that one by a line or two.

[duckbuster]

LABS, you know I love ya man but I am going to go against you a bit here and agree with Todd. My reasoning for this goes to the old argument that this forum has had several times about backyard breeders/breedings. If you have a responsible breeder like Todd who will make the EIC test known to buyers then you are OK. People who know that they are purchasing a carrier from Todd and knowingly breed their new dog to a sire or female without the proper clearances are the breeders, backyard breeders if you will, we should eliminate. By taking carriers out of the pool you are taking many, many quality dogs/producers away that have passed on wonderful traits excluding EIC.

I do agree with you on the statement that you made that went something like this. "Hey, Jimmy has got the best dog I have ever hunted behind. He went all day long and never lost a bird, he is the greatest ever. Well you know, I hunted behind Johnnies female and I would put her up against any waterfowl or upland dog around. Hey we should get those 2 together" Right here is where we get ourselves in trouble with the breed. More times than not in this situation clearances are thrown right out the window because Jimmy and Johnnies dogs are the greatest. And as Todd mentioned earlier just because this case might be true this DOES NOT mean the puppies will be just like their parents and be quality hunters.

As you stated LABS, to every man his own opinion, so be it. I agree with you 100%. I have a friend up in Duluth who I have had 2-3 very heated conversations with on this very topic. He is dead set and I do mean DEAD set against buying a carrier. Me on the other hand, it makes no difference. In fact I was prepared to own a carrier with the puppy I bought 1 year ago. As it turned out, I was going to take a male and of the 9 puppies that were born only 2 were carriers. They both happened to be females.

GOOD LUCK to the original poster on your breeding. Thanks to LABS and Todd for being open, honest and constructive with their line of thinking on this topic.

[Todd Caswell]

Here's an example of a litter that was posted a couple of days ago in a different forumn, I asked the guy why he didn't have the cerf and eic results listed for his female, and here's his responce. ( I XXX out the names)

had a feeling I would get criticized about this. I was told by a breeder that there was no need to test for either since the stud XXXX was clear of both. Yes, these pups could be EIC carriers but there will be no affected pups. If this will affect XXXXX or your decision to purchase a puppy I will have both tests done this week. You give me your deposit and I will refund it to both of you if you are not happy with the results. Any other questions feel free to email me or call me, I will be happy to answer them

The guys asking alot of money for a MH sired litter with only part of the health clearences being done, this is one of the downfalls of the lab breed, and goldens as well.

[LABS4ME]

Myself would probably still go the route of not breeding a carrier, but I no longer play the game and feel I will only pass on the genes of dogs whom I feel really do bring something to the table for the average owner. On occassion one of my pups is run and they can with the right trainer do O.K., just no longer my focus and I just want to give people a shot of a real nice "lab" every 2nd or 3rd year...

As far as breeding a carrier like in Todd's case... I would concur that most if not all the pups will be going to a home that understands EIC and is not in it to in the future breed 'Bingo the wonder dog'. They are most likely going to be buying a quality pup with the intent on running it and possibly producing the next generation of superstars. If the fact that one of the parents is a carrier and that is openly discussed, I would agree that at least we are moving in the right direction as to controlling the disease. I'd love to see it eliminated, but in today's line bred world, it will probably never happen.

I agree discussions like these in which an open debate without personal jabs like we see on other forum sites is fantastic and fully helps everyone reading it to develop an opinion and educating them on a particular subject.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Todd Caswell]

Ken,

After all we have discussed, question for ya, say you had pick of a litter that you had high hopes for, there is a possibility that some may be carriers, pups are tested some are carriers some aren't. Would your pick of the litter be influenced by clear VS carrier, or would you still pick the pup you felt was "pick of the litter" even if it was a carrier?

Myself if I had two pups that I felt were equal then I guess I would pick the clear one but if I thought there was a standout carrier pup Id'e still take that one.

Not that the pick means anything, sometimes the one left over is the true gem.

[LABS4ME]

Hey Todd...

My honest reply? I'd take a clear. Here is my reasoning. After breeding several litters of pups, my feeling of the 'pick' of the 'litter' is just that... the 1st pick. I don't think the remaining puppies go down in descending order... as you said, the last man picked sometimes is the hidden gem!

Also, by your own admission, you - yourself would have no problem breeding to a carrier that is 'Tops' in the game to produce a litter of outstanding trial prospects. By 'you' buying that pup that is a carrier, you have elimainated your own future potential breeding pool to non-carriers only as you now have a carrier... the next 2xNFC or Derby Champ may be a carrier and you are left drooling wishing to breed to them w/o that possibility. I also belive that in time a lot of people will want to wash their hands of this disease (maybe not the guys running trials...) and shy away from any breeding that are disclosed bred with a carrier...

hard to guess the future, but I want to stack the cards in my favor. A clean pup out of the breeding I've chosen to get a pup from, will give me the opportunity to still train it and foster it to be a potential competitor, while minimizing any frustration with future breedings.

Good Luck!

Ken

[DuckDog]

[DuckDog]

Please someone critique good or bad for the above AKC paperwork

[Bryce]

See alot of OFA numbers. That's good. What else are you looking to hear?

[DuckDog]

When I first posted on this forum about dog breeding I was asked to post her papers for people to review and comment

[Bryce]

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread. Just based on paper, I'd say the dog has average breeding at best compared to what's out there. Pedigree's most accomplished dogs drop off when you breed this time. That's just my opinion based on just looking at the pedigree so don't construe my reply to say "don't breed" or "I'm right, you're wrong". Heck, I know for a fact that Labs4me drives Ford and we ALL know the only truck is a GM product.

[Todd Caswell]

Ped. looks OK I know Stoney was owned and trained BY Rick Stawski, he got him QAA at an early age with a 2nd. I believe, nice looking dog. I know titles don't mean every thing but if i was interested in a puppy i would like to see at least a SH preferably a MH on the Female in any litter unless i knew from previous breedings that she throws good dogs.

I also don't put alot of weight on what the ped looks like a few generations back, when looking at high end FT pedigrees they all look good. I put more weight on the parents and the grand parents, if they have the qualities that I would be looking for in a puppy.

Just my opinion.

[caseymcq]

If you get an online AKC Research Pedigree for five generations for the pups those dogs on the far end of this pedigree will hold on (if you do one for your female you'll even pick up the dogs you aren't seeing on this one).

IMO the pedigree looks good for breeding hunting dogs. The OFA's are good to excellent. You have a mix of dogs with field champions and master hunts.

We had a litter a little over a year ago with the sire having Risky Raider as one of his grand parents. The owners we have talked to are all happy with their pups (I suppose those who aren't rarely call to complain but hey they're labs... how could they not be great dogs ). We had heard from three of the owners that their 10 month old pups did great this hunting season. Totally aside and some real sad irony, the day our pups were born was the day Risky Raider passed.

We bred a mixture of dogs with hunt and show titles. Our reasoning behind it was the hunt titled dogs showed the ability to hunt (I know that is kind of like "Well duhh..." ). The show titles demonstrated dogs that were physically "what a lab is supposed to be" a.k.a. conformation. This is all, of course, just our philosophy on breeding (hence our OPINION). Not saying any of this is right, wrong or otherwise.

Are you looking to breed pups that will be all around good hunting dogs? One of the components we have looked at and I haven't seen discussed a lot when it comes to breeding is coat. We have looked for dogs with the lab coat that is thick hair on top and the undercoat all of which is to keep them warm when they are in those cold October waters getting that mallard you dropped way the heck out there (that insulating fur they got from their Newfoundland ancestors).