Poison

[Scoot]

I've been thinking about the 'yote problem quite a bit lately. I think the main ways to deal with them are: 1) hunting, 2) trapping, 3) poison, 4) let Mother-Nature take care of the problem over time. Are these the primary means of dealing with them?

The info I've gotten about controlling the overall population via hunting suggests it's really tough to do so effectively. I'm too busy to ethically run a trapline (can't check the line frequently enough). This leaves poison. I don't know anything about it, including whether or not it's even legal in ND. Does anyone have any relevant info on this?

[harvey lee]

You know how many we have out on the ranch Scoot.

I had a buddy who hunts them come out a week or so ago with 2 others and the plan was to thin the herd.

Well, after 2 days of hunting, score- coyotes none. They said they called them but they would not come in. Saw many tracks but they just stayed where they were and howled.

If one could poisen them without hurting any other wildlife, I would purchase the needed poisen to take care of those critters.

I have been waiting for 2-3 years for Mother Nature to bring on the mange but she must believe they are needed.

[cbrooks]

Never heard of anyone poisoning yotes Scoot. Like Harv mention above the only problem I can see with poison is harming the environment. I think trapping would be the most effective way to control the population. Another thing about poisoning them is there's no sport in it. You would have every antishunting group raising he11 on this issue. I'm convince that trapping is the only solution.

[creepworm]

I do not believe poisoning is legal due to the fact that other critter and birds would have a high likelyhood of being poisoned as well.

Another option (if you have the space necessary or know someone with hounds) would be to run them with hounds. They used to run coyotes with hounds where we deer hunt and they would't necessarily kill very many, but it would make them uncomfortable and they moved out of the area after being chased around for a few weeks. It seemed especially effective if it was done at the time females are looking to den up and have their young.

[Scoot]

Another thing about poisoning them is there's no sport in it. You would have every antishunting group raising he11 on this issue. I'm convince that trapping is the only solution.

I definitely agree there wouldn't be any sport in the matter. But, I don't see how that's at all relevant- I'm not looking for sport. I'd love to see the coyote numbers reduced significantly so the deer population can rebound more quickly. If poison is a legal option, I'd consider pursuing it. Although it'd be more fun with a rifle or a trap, it's also not nearly as likely to be effective. I'm not looking for fun here- I'm looking to kill coyotes. I'm not interested in breaking the law though- I'll look into what's legal and not and try report back in here.

Antihunting groups? Again, if poison is a legal option, I'll pursue it. If not, I won't. About the last people on earth I'll let guide my behavior are members of anit-hunting groups. If an option is legal, I'll be danged if I'll let their misguided views influece what I choose to do and not do. I also certainly won't let fear of what they might think of me behaving in a legal manner impact me in any way.

You might be right- trapping might be the best and/or only option. Like I mentioned though- I've got a wife, two kids who are involved in a bunch of stuff, and my wife and I both work full time. There's no chance I could run a trap line ethically. I used to trap when I was young and it takes a ton of time and effort- no chance I could do it now.

[TylerS]

Here's an interesting tidbit of information for everyone regarding the coyote numbers. I spoke with a G&F biologist recently who made a very interesting point. Apparently, coyote numbers have been this high for years. In fact, a few years ago when deer numbers were at an all-time high, coyotes were right there with them. But you didn't hear anyone complaining about the yotes then because there were plenty of deer to go around. If you asked someone about the coyote problem in 2005, they looked at you funny.

Fast forward to today, after three harsh winters and intensive doe harvests, and our deer numbers have fallen significantly. On the other hand, coyote numbers are still high, mainly because they don't bow to the whims of fate nearly as much as deer do.

One other thing to note: if you were to somehow poison coyotes on your land, it would hardly benefit it unless you somehow got ALL of your neighbors to put poison out on their lands, too. Coyotes are very territorial, and as soon as few are killed of a piece of property, there are plenty waiting on the fringe to take over the vacated area.

I think I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: the ONLY ways of controlling the coyote population either stem from some sort of disease outbreak, or very intensive (as in a culling a large percentage of the population for several consecutive years) trapping and hunting. That's the honest truth.

[TylerS]

On an aside, if you truly want to get rid of coyotes, your best bet would be to contact a trapper. Veteran trappers FAR AND AWAY harvest more yotes than even the best hunters.

Harvey Lee, if you're willing to open up your land to a trapper, I'd drop a note to the North Dakota Fur Hunters and Trappers Association: NDFHTA I bet if you explained your problem, they'd have someone in the area more than happy to run a snare line for a few weeks. Pelts are prime right now, and I know land is tough to get on. If you offer up virgin trapping ground, I can almost guarantee someone will jump at the chance to run it.

[TylerS]

Scratch that, looks like a dead HSOforum. Try the North Dakota Fur Takers out, they actually look like you might be able to get ahold of someone: North Dakota Fur Takers

[harvey lee]

Thanks Tyler.

I called the guy in charge of the Fur Takers in West Fargo and he or another is very intrerested in running a trap line there.

We should reduce the pack some Scoot. Maybe you will not get run over by the yotes next fall. I explained to Joe where you hunt Scoot and to leave a few for you and the boy to watch by your blind or stand.

Hopefully the deep snow will stay away for awhile so they can even get down there without a sled.

Here is a recipe that could work to controls the yotes. I would just worry about a couple bobcat in the area.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=icwdm_usdanwrc

[Scoot]

Thanks for the info, fellas. Tom, I'm interested in this for anyplace that is interested in it. I'd love to see it employed at your Ranch, but I'm also inquiring about it for my mother-in-law's place and my buddy's land too. Obviously, I wouldn't have tried to do anything out at the Ranch without your knowledge of it. I think it's a great idea though...

Tyler, I agree with a lot of what you said. However, if trapping is an effective means of reducing the coyote population, why wouldn't poison be a good means? Also, if coyotes would replace areas that are reduced in coyote number by poison, why wouldn't the exact same thing happen if the coyote numbers are reduced via trapping. Like I said- I agree with a lot of what you said, but the logic doesn't make much sense to me regarding that.

Also, at least in the three areas I hunted this year there is absolutely no doubt the coyote numbers are higher than I've ever seen them. That being said, I'm sure there is some truth to what you said regarding three tough Winters being the real cause of most of the deer mortality. However, the weather is totally beyond our control and the coyote numbers may not be, so that seems like a more logical area to focus. Even if weather is responsible for 90% of the mortality, that still leaves 10% that we could have an influence on...

[TylerS]

Difference between trapping and poison is that the latter is indiscriminate to what it kills and the former can instigate some form of control. I only gave Harvey the idea for trapping as an alternate means to poisoning, which I'm fairly sure is illegal.

In truth, I think any form of trying to control the coyote population is moot. They're the Canada geese of the furbearer world.

As I said, I feel the only way the coyote population will ever be impacted would be by some sort of plague or very, very intensive harvest. The only of these we have control of is the hunting part, and that's entirely up to us hunters to do it.

You really want to see people get after yotes? Create a market for their furs again. If fur prices suddenly got up there to $50 a pop or more for a yote on the round, you can guarantee there'd be more hunters swarming the lands than you've seen since the last fur boom.

[harvey lee]

I do not know if the bounty would cure the issue.

I believe it was last year when the G-N-F was talking about placing a $100 bounty on the yotes and they figured it would only cost more for those who already trap and hunt them and it would not have enough gained effect on the population to be worth the added dollars spent.

MANGE will cure this population as soon as Mother Nature decides it is time. But, it sure cannot hurt to trap and shoot all one can. For every female eliminated, thats many less pups next spring.

Would be alot easier if they were not so sneaky and elusive.

[flyfisher03]

Instead of looking for legality of poisoning coyotes in North Dakota on a forums why not give the local Conservation Officer-Game Warden a call to check the legality.

In Minnesota it is illegal to poison wildlife, not sure about North Dakota

[TylerS]

No, I think I explained on a different thread about the folly of a bounty, too. Basically, hunters already take a fairly substantial number of coyotes a year, so to put a certain amount bounty on them, it would need to be equal to the amount of the numbers taken JUST to break even. We'd have to double or triple that amount to even see a slight impact on numbers. And because the G&F have no funding for such an endeavor, the burden would fall on the hunters' pocketbooks. While I don't think I'd mind paying more for a tag, I don't want it going toward a program I feel won't do anything for the deer numbers. If they're going to sink money into something, they ought to concentrate on buying up habitat, not thinning coyote numbers.

What I was suggesting would be if the actual fur market increased, not a bounty. If Russia or China or somesuch place suddenly had a marked increase in coyote pelt needs, you'd see the price of pelts go up proportionately. Law of supply and demand. Flash enough green in any man's eyes and tell him to jump, and he's bound to sat "how high" at some point.

[Scoot]

Flyfisher, I posted here because I was not only interested in the legality of it, I also was interested in a dialog about the topic. I'll check the G&F HSOforum this afternoon when I have a bit more time.

Tyler, again- I agree with most of what you said. I'm fully aware of the level of discrimination associated with poison vs. trapping. Poison doesn't discriminate at all. However, trapping isn't nearly as precise as you suggest- when I used to trap fox I'd catch coyotes, cats, racoons, even an owl. I know a few trappers and they get just about everything you can imagine in their traps...

My question about the differences between the two was regarding effectiveness of overall numbers, not level of discrimination. If you kill 'em via trap or poison, according to what you said, new ones will fill in the dead ones- the method shouldn't matter.

All that being said, I'm sure you're right- the Winters have a whole lot more to do with the deer numbers than the yotes. But, like I said before, you can only control what you can control and there's little doubt that the weather isn't one of those things. That leaves me to think about what I can have an impact on.

BTW, here's info from the G&F HSOforum regarding legal methods of taking a coyote- no mention of poison as a legal option:

RED FOX, GRAY FOX, COYOTE AND BADGER may be taken with firearms, traps,

archery equipment (including crossbows), and dogs statewide and year round.

[TylerS]

Tyler, again- I agree with most of what you said. I'm fully aware of the level of discrimination associated with poison vs. trapping. Poison doesn't discriminate at all. However, trapping isn't nearly as precise as you suggest- when I used to trap fox I'd catch coyotes, cats, racoons, even an owl. I know a few trappers and they get just about everything you can imagine in their traps...

[harvey lee]

Won't be too many deer deaths from yotes this winter. Not that many deer running around.

Maybe a coyote harvest get-to-gether would wipe a few out.

As long as the deer herd is over the lands carring capacity, the yotes will have a good time feeding on weak or dead deer.

I had not planned on deer hunting in ND next season to give our deer a rest. Maybe one should go up anyways and hunt the dogs.

[Scoot]

Good discussion- interesting points and info. Thanks to all who have chimed in and offered their thoughts and input.

The only thing I like to bring up is the futility of it all.

I think "futility" might be overstating it a bit, but there's no doubt it's an uphill battle. However, you keep talking about habitat, which I completely agree is a HUGE deal, but I see that as a much greater uphill battle than dealing with coyotes. Heck, I think any one individual has about as much influence on the weather as they do on federal programs that'll help maintain the number of CRP acres. Frustrating deal for sure...

[TylerS]

Scoot,

You're right, habitat acquisition is quite the uphill battle, especially considering the laws in the state that limit how much land one particular organization can have.

But while it may seem like we could have an easier time thinning coyote numbers than creating wildlife habitat, I think both require much more time and effort than we're giving credit for.

I'm just trying to put things in perspective. I realize that trying to stop or slow the hemorrhage of CRP acres is nearly impossible. Even if we were to somehow set aside a couple thousand acres, that will be a tenth of a percent of the total land lost by the end of next year.

And let me say again: I have NOTHING against people going out and attempting to kill as many coyotes as they can. In fact, if anyone wants to get together at some point in the next couple months for an HSO Coyote Kill-a-Thon, I'll be the first to sign up. I'm just emphasizing the fact that I honestly don't think culling a bunch of coyotes is going to bring back that many deer. I think some people (not necessarily anyone posting here, however) have it in their mind that with coyotes out of the picture, deer populations would suddenly explode. Even if we were to wipe out 90 percent of the coyotes in southeast North Dakota, however, I'm predicting next fall's deer season will look starkly similar to this fall, simply because the habitat is not what it used to be.

And we REALLY can't say how much of an impact yotes have on North Dakota deer populations because scientific proof is not out there. Even the Game and Fish Department, the governing body on all things wildlife, have no CLUE how coyotes effect deer.

In fact, I'll go as far as to offer this: instead of raising our license fees for money toward habitat or bounties or anything else, let's raise them so the additional funding can go toward studying the impact of coyotes and other predators on the deer herd. That way we'll know, without a doubt, how much or how little the carnivores actually do.

All we have right now is anecdotal observations. Farmer Joe says he found a deer carcass stripped clean in his field. "Must of been coyotes," he says. "Bet it was a healthy deer, too."

Stuff like that spreads like wildfire among hunters, and nobody questions it. If coyotes are supposedly involved in any way, it must be the God's honest truth.

Then you see pictures online of a supposed healthy buck getting taken down by two coyotes in front of a game camera. From the outside, it looks like it confirms what many hunters believe: that coyotes kill and eat full-grown, healthy animals. Then, they figure, they must do it all the time. All that stuff about coyotes picking off the weak or infirmed is hogwash. They're killer! They're full of bloodlust.

But there's been nothing confirmed about the pictures other than what they show. We don't know if this was a sick or wounded animal, we don't know if the coyotes were sick or starving and beyond desperation, heck we don't even know if this was or was not a rigged situation inside a penned enclosure.

Then again, maybe it was a perfectly healthy deer and those were your everyday, average coyotes. Then what does that tell us? Coyotes can and will kill healthy animals. But even then, even if we ADMIT that they do kill healthy, adult deer, we don't know how many, or how often. Is this a regular occurrence or an anomaly? If a coyote is presented with a healthy buck and a sickly fawn, which will it go after first?

I think I may have sidetracked a bit from our conversation, but I think you get where I'm coming from.

And I'll say it one more time: please, please go out and kill some coyotes. If you need an extra set of eyes and a .30-06, give me a jingle and I'll be there without question. But while I'll admit it's a heckuva lot of fun, I also think coyote hunters feel like they're doing nature some sort of justice when, in reality, the few coyotes they do harvest probably are a drop in the bucket. I mean, the G&F estimates that between 70,000 and 100,000 coyotes are harvested a year. That's a lot of animals! But we still are at record numbers.

Maybe I'm looking at this too pessimistically, I suppose it would be easy to throw in the towel and not do anything. But just like trying to recoup lost CRP seems impossible, nothing is going to happen if we don't start at some point. I suppose the same can be said for coyotes: the numbers will never actually drop if we don't begin hunting them right now.

[Scoot]

Tyler, I continue to agree with almost everything you are saying. I also totally agree with your big picture point- habitat is a much bigger deal than yotes. At an individual level, though, it's a lot easier to think of small influences, like yotes, than think too hard about things are are pretty well beyond any individuals influence...

Again, as I see it I think we've got different points of interest and focus, but I firmly agree with your take-home point.

[harvey lee]

I would agree with both of you.

I will say, that for the sportsmen to try and invest in habitat or help create new habitat for deer is almost a job beyond or capabillity.

Our Goverment can create a program like CRP on a national level and I highly doubt that these programs can be offered on a state or local level due to the high costs.

When land prices and crop prices continue to rise, to do any type habitat work that would benefit the deer is almost impossible on a local level. Cost are simply higher than most can afford.

Now, we can help control the coyote population. Lets say of our ranch which is approx 2 sections along the Sheyenne river and the national grasslands, we harvest 15 females. Thats 15 less [PoorWordUsage] than can have pups next year. If each yote were to have 5 young ones to survive, we then next year would have elimanated 90 coyotes in one year. Now multiply that out by 5 years and one can see how one could really put a hurt on the local population.

These coyotes will eat prairie dogs, mice, turkey ground squirrels and deer along with cattle. Nice to have the yotoes around to help control the mouse population but the rest of thier main meals I would like to see in the woods.

90% of their diet is made up of mammals- voles, prairie dogs, eastern cottontails, ground squirrels and mice. Coyotes will also eat small birds, snakes, lizards, deer, javelina, cattle and small insects.

In our area, we do not really have a need for more habitat but we do need some control on the yotes and trapping and hunting is about the only avenue to control them.

I have contacted a trapper who along with another is going to go out and see how many they can take to help us out. If the price of the fur would increase, that also would help. We have not had a trapper on this land for over 40 years so I believe this trapper will stay around for a few years as his trapping success should be of value to him for his time spent.

It is sad to see the end of the CRP and probably more of these programs but as stated above, with the rising costs, our government cannot even afford them so we have to now find a different avenue to help the wildlife. Thankfully this winter with the lack of snow and cold, the yotes may have good feeding without going after our deer.

I also agree that the weather has more to do with the reduction in the deer population but then for every doe we can save from the yotes, that is that many more fawns next spring. Our area CO explained to me that last spring when it was so wet, that did more damasge to the deer population that the snow and cold.

So, for us in our area, our only hope is for Mother nature to take it easy on the wildlife and for us to harvest as many of the females as we can to reduce breeding. That we can afford to due without the help of the government.

Year ago we had to use the poison pellets in the ground to help control the pocket gophers as they made so many mounds or hills in the hayfields. In the past years as the yote population grew, we have seen a huge decrease in the gopher population in the fields. That has been a nice benefit of the yote population.

I realize in some of the other areas in the state, the habitat increase would for sure help out but for us, that simply is not the case.

I was researching coyote-deer kills and in texas, they say that 60% of all fawn death is due to coyotes. They aslo stated that the coyote do not harvest that many adult deer unless they are week and food is short. 60% of the fawn death is alot of future adults.

Seems there are many states at this time trying to study how the coyote effect the deer population. On of the closet research studies is in the state of Michigan and the results do not favor the deer.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/outdoors/115154119.html

I believe in many states the jury is still out on how much damage the yotes do to the deer. But they do know that many coyotes do have wolf blood in them so that does not bode well for the deer.

Happy hunting and trapping.

[Scoot]

Interesting info and post, Tom- thanks. 60% fawn mortality? Wow! Also, in spite of what the tree huggers would have you believe, yotes take mature and healthy animals- video, trailcam pics, pics in the Fargo Forum, and I've seen it with my own eyes. They'll take game whenever the opportunity arises- big, small, sick, healthy, doe, buck, or fawn...

But like Tyler has been saying- there are many factors that contribute too the current deer numbers and coyotes are probably only a small piece of the puzzle. I totally agree with Tom though- if we have some control over one small piece, why not put in the effort. If I could contribute more significantly to maintaining CRP I happily would, but I see that as an unfortunate and losing battle. I think it'd take many billions (that's with a "b") of dollars to even think about putting a dent into the trajectory of that issue. I don't mean to have a self-defeating attitude regarding habitat, but personally I see the future of CRP as worse than bleak.

[cbrooks]

I've notice that a fur for coyotes are going for as high as 35$ a hide. I'm sure thats for a hide that doesn't have any bullets in it. Thats the best I've seen in a long time. Might have to try my luck with the 243

[still floats guy]

Who really knows for sure if yote population is that much higher than the last five years. The truth is that we know through survey relusts that the deer population in many zones is WAY down. The weather plays a huge factor in deer reproduction success. I'm sure the coyote population ebbs and flows along with the rest of the ND wildlife. However, every deer kill by coyotes is significant with the depressed deer population.

A friend of mine who owns a cattle feedlot just lost a cow to some coyotes. In addition, they chased a 3x3 buck onto the ice of a holding pond he has and killed it. That buck could have bread 10-20 doe next year. I think the best policy is to kill em' all by whatever legal means we have available. Mother nature will take care of the rest. Lower deer population will undoubtedly translate to lower coyote population over time as their food sources are eliminated. I will personally be willing to lend a hand with my ririfle whenever possible:)

Some ND towns(Northwood ND) have started coyote tourneys to promote the harvest and thinning of the population. I think they have one coming up in the next couple of months. Many of the small towns in the region have men's groups or hunting clubs that could promote the sport.

Happy new year and straight shooting!