Who should make the rules?

[BLACKJACK]

I think that pitting one deer hunter against another for a difference of view will not help future hunting.

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: Wanderer

I Just looked at yet another couple pages of big buck photos in the Outdoor News.

Always my favorite argument when people whine about the lack of big bucks. They're out there, the photos in the ODN and bait shops prove it, go hunt one down, don't expect the DNR to provide one for you.

.

Oh look my favorite argument, the bucks are there go get them. Guess what, many of us try and accomplish that every year, but there are so few of these bucks I would need to quit my job and let my family go into bankruptcy to get one. That or get lucky, now I have gotten luck a few times in the past but I also put in a lot of hard work and time. In 18 years of hunting I have seen 2 mature bucks on stand and I was fortunate enough to get both of them.

I'm not asking the DNR to change the rules so there is a "big buck behind every tree" as many here think. First of all that is a weak argument and really not possible, just because there are more bucks around does not mean they are going to be any easier to kill. All I'm asking for is maybe, just maybe the chance that if I put in a ton of time and hard work I might get the opportunity to see a mature buck once every season or two.

[DaveT]

I think that complacency is the biggest threat to the future of hunting.

It scares me when people are so against change that they ignore facts and discount opposing views without giving it any thought.

[96trigger]

Please give the facts that we are ignoring?????

[DaveT]

Sorry Trigger, that wasn't directed at you, some of these guys are not willing to hear anything that contradicts what they believe is gospel.

They keep trying to tell me how good the hunting is here, and I don't agree. I've hunted in 5 other states in the last 8 years and I know what good hunting is. Our deer hunting is a joke compared to what other states have.

My frustration over this issue is getting the better of me.

I am going to leave it at that and get back to this issue next fall after I get back from Iowa, Kansas and hopefully Pike County, Illinois. (I don't have permission yet Props, but you can't go with)

[chub]

Please give the facts that we are ignoring?????

Probably the fact that now that everyone is a "professional" hunter because they watch the never ending stream of shows where "it's easy" to shoot a trophy... .

I don't think MN has ever been, or will ever be the "go too" state for the guy that wants to have 12 pointers walking by his stand, waiting for the "big one".

I would guess taking our weather, population, predation, the fact that there's a TON of people that hunt, a deer season that runs from mid-sept through the end of Jan, etc..., we aren't ever going to be just like the TV shows.

...There's too many deer, causing havoc on the roads.

...They let you shoot them down, then there's not enough deer.

Blaaahhhhh, blahhhhh, blah, blah, blah.

...I'm almost a biologist, I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lastnight and saw this show about hunting in KS. ... .

... the DNR should listen to me, 'cause I've got all the latest cool gear and hunt 10x as much as my great uncle John... LMAO

If the majority of the public is fine with the way things are, and the paid professional biologists more or less fall in line with them, so be it. ...if the majority feel there should be some changes made and the paid professional biologists agree with it, so be it.

The entertainment value of reading these threads is second to none. Like watching a fight over a gumball rolling around on the wet floor of the short bus

[96trigger]

I don't disagree with you on many things, but I think the majority would like to try baby steps first, and see what happens. I think EAB and Antler restrictions are pretty drastic changes. Much more so that moving the season and getting rid of party hunting. Then, lets reaevealuate after a couple of years and see what we can do next if need be.

[BLACKJACK]

Originally Posted By: BLACKJACK

Originally Posted By: Wanderer

I Just looked at yet another couple pages of big buck photos in the Outdoor News.

Always my favorite argument when people whine about the lack of big bucks. They're out there, the photos in the ODN and bait shops prove it, go hunt one down, don't expect the DNR to provide one for you.

.

Oh look my favorite argument, the bucks are there go get them. Guess what, many of us try and accomplish that every year, but there are so few of these bucks I would need to quit my job and let my family go into bankruptcy to get one. That or get lucky, now I have gotten luck a few times in the past but I also put in a lot of hard work and time. In 18 years of hunting I have seen 2 mature bucks on stand and I was fortunate enough to get both of them.

I'm not asking the DNR to change the rules so there is a "big buck behind every tree" as many here think. First of all that is a weak argument and really not possible, just because there are more bucks around does not mean they are going to be any easier to kill. All I'm asking for is maybe, just maybe the chance that if I put in a ton of time and hard work I might get the opportunity to see a mature buck once every season or two.

Thats why they call it HUNTING!!

[Bear55]

Thats why they call it HUNTING!!

Really? I never knew that. Like I said earlier I hunt mostly public land, I scout year round and hunt as much as possible every fall. I go places most hunters won't go via canoe and chest waders in search of big bucks. I see my fair share of 2-3 year old bucks every year but where are the truly big bucks? Let me tell you, most of the time they are not there. Or if I am lucky enough to locate a nice sized buck on public land he might spend most of his time on privaite ground a mile away. You can't hunt big bucks where most of the time they don't exist which is why you don't see many moose hunters down in Iowa.

[Bear55]

It scares me when a very vocal minority with special interests try and push regulations for the masses. If that vocal minority can somehow convert the majority, I think the DNR could make some more changes. I believe this is happening with the younger generations, but it will not happen over night.

This brings up a good question, is QDM the vocal minority? Our numbers are growing every year, maybe we don't represent the majority of hunters but the numbers could be closer than we think. Within the next 5-10 years we could easily become the majority.

I know I have never been questioned or surveyed by the DNR. Why not try and survey everyone. Setup some kind of online survey, we could all use our DNR #'s to verify we are who we say we are. Send everyone a letter in the mail to inform them of the survey, I'm sure most deer hunters would love to give their oponions.

[picksbigwagon]

No party hunting for bucks, I agree, but how will that be enforced?

Is part of the reason Iowa has the number of bucks it has because there is no open firearm season during the rut? Minnesota has a lot of "tradtions" and they like to stick to those tradtions no matter what. Moving the firearm season to later in the year would/could help. But the uproar from something like that would be unbelievable. Population denstiy (human) also plays a big part as well.

If you drive north of the cities, most of the available farm land is what I call rock farms, they might have fields of crops, but they are better suited to growing rocks. In Iowa, there aren't a lot of rock farms. There are parts of NE IA, where I am from, where deer never see a human until they are shot. They have a lot of corn and beans to eat as well. Good luck trying to hunt the bluffs and ridges in Allamakee county.

[kr8r.tom]

people who are against any sory of QDM style of management are like the little kid who abolutly knows he hates green beans eventhough he's never tried them.

[chub]

And the people that whine about having to travel to a different state and environment to shoot a "trophy" animal, while people in St. Paul discuss banning lead bullets are kinda like the old Swede who still enjoys Lutefisk......out of touch with reality

It's a joke son......

[propster]

Pickle, you got it - more and bigger because the gun hunt is later. Allamakee is God's country. If they're eating beans and corn though, they can be seen.

[96trigger]

Quote:

This brings up a good question, is QDM the vocal minority?

I still think that they are the vocal minority. I think that is because they throw out ideas like antler restrictions and earn a buck. Like I said before, I think if we started small, like with ending party hunting for bucks, I don't think we would be infringing on anybody's right to harvest any kind of deer, only making it illegal for those to harvest multiple bucks. Maybe we start with ending party hunting for bucks, then look at moving the firearm season back a week. Then lets wait a couple of years and reevaluate. I don't think we need to go overboard with restrictions. I think antler restrictions would be the quickest way to help increase the number of mature bucks, but I also think it will further divide hunters, at least at first.

[mrklean]

i agree 100% trigger, take small steps so we dont push people out of hunting.

[Bear55]

At this point, I favor any kind of change no matter how large or small. I would be thrilled if they stopped party hunting for bucks.

[Bear55]

Quote:

This brings up a good question, is QDM the vocal minority?

I still think that they are the vocal minority. I think that is because they throw out ideas like antler restrictions and earn a buck. Like I said before, I think if we started small, like with ending party hunting for bucks, I don't think we would be infringing on anybody's right to harvest any kind of deer, only making it illegal for those to harvest multiple bucks. Maybe we start with ending party hunting for bucks, then look at moving the firearm season back a week. Then lets wait a couple of years and reevaluate. I don't think we need to go overboard with restrictions. I think antler restrictions would be the quickest way to help increase the number of mature bucks, but I also think it will further divide hunters, at least at first.

But how much of a minority? Are we 10%, 25% or larger? If you were to ask people if they were for changing some of the regs to grow larger deer a large number would say yes, but then guys find out they might have to sacrifice a little bit and they get scared. I think there are a lot of hunters that could fall on either side of the fence but only get counted as the majority because they aren't hard core QDM.

[deerminator]

I'm a big believer in limited government. That is, its government job to make and enforce the limited amount of rules possible so everyone can enjoy the pursuit of "life, liberty and happiness." That's because when government sticks its nose into matters anything beyond that, it pretty much screws it up 100 percent of the time.

In the case of the DNR, I think they're pretty much doing what they should be doing right now. Give us a chance to get a deer, any deer, so we have the opportunity to deer hunt, period, and let us handle the rest. You want a big buck, make that happen yourself. Don't rely on the DNR to drop one onto your lap with strategies that may or may not work. And even if they do work, will not gaurentee you that big one. I was watching Jim Shockey the other night and he mentioned how it took him more than a month of sitting there every day in a blind, camera running, to get a buck he wanted in one area of Canada known for big bucks.

While I feel government's role should be limited, I also don't think you should just leave it up to the people to take a vote on issues like this. Our country is structured as a republic with representatives of the people so mob rule won't ever overtake common sense. It's our representatives job to represent us, but also to study the issues, debate them and act in our best interests, despite popular opinion. Now, that wouldn't help me in this case, because it means a vocal minority could influence the enactment of antler point restrictions, etc. And that's why those against such overreaching laws need to be vocal as well.

But the gate swings the other way. Take the recent crackdown on the all-season license and one deer period bag limit in the numerous lottery areas throughout the state. Ask hunters in those areas if they'd like to kill three deer again and I would wager a majority would say yes immediately with no other reason behind their decision than they want to kill more deer. Does that make sense? Is it based on sound reason? No, not at all. And that's why we have represtatives versus letting the people take a direct vote.

[96trigger]

Quote:

But how much of a minority? Are we 10%, 25% or larger? If you were to ask people if they were for changing some of the regs to grow larger deer a large number would say yes, but then guys find out they might have to sacrifice a little bit and they get scared. I think there are a lot of hunters that could fall on either side of the fence but only get counted as the majority because they aren't hard core QDM.

I think we are in 100% agreement on this. I also think many hunters would say yes, but do not want to sacrifice anything. I think EAB and antler restrictions really turn people off. Heck, I am one of those guys on the fence. I'd like to see something, but if they try and implement EAB, I will be opposed and become skeptical as to what the DNR is trying to do. I think think you hit the nail on the head, when you said alot of hunters are on the fence, but I think that the hard core QDM'rs really scare a lot of people off with the EAB and Antler Restriction talk, thus making the hard core QDM'rs, a very vocal minority. I think that they would get a lot farther if they would tone it down a bit.

[deerminator]

I don't see why everyone gets teed off about EAB. I would love the opportunity to take two deer in my lottery area.

[96trigger]

Deerminator, if you think EAB would be established in a lottery area, you are very wrong. Not to rain on your parade. The EAB would be used in areas with a high deer population, mainly intensive harvest areas. That is why SEMN gets brought up so frequently. In lottery areas, they are just looking at ways to increase the population.

[kr8r.tom]

eab came about in buffalo county wisconsin because hunters didn't want to shoot does, they only wanted bucks, the population density was getting out of wack, the dnr proposed you have to earn your buck tag and shoot a doe first, so they could get the population back in check, it was kind of a last ditch effort to get people to shoot does.

[deerminator]

Trigger. I was saying being in a lottery area, I am envious of those who can regularly hunt managed or intensive areas, not that I want to further decimate our population. I should have been more clear in my words. I'm just saying life would be great if I could go for a doe early and sit back and wait for a buck, like the old days. So those who gripe about having to shoot two deer get no sympathy from me. I don't care if the 14 pointer walks out on opening day and you haven't got your doe. Do some scouting and get on the does asap.

Also, I was thinking about all the antler point restriction and later season advocates out there and wondering if the solution isn't to have a later season statewide where you have to shoot a 10 point or bigger? Hmmm? Hmmm?

[96trigger]

Deerminator, I got yah. I hunt an intensive harvest area, and I can tell you this. In my area, we do not have the deer population for EAB. If we hunt hard, yes, we will get deer, maybe even more than one. We will more often than not see a deer on stand, but that doesn't mean that they will be in range. Getting a whitetail doe in my area isn't as easy as some in other areas of the state might think, especially with the split season. Many of the does go underground and find sanctuarys after the 3A season. Still plenty of deer, but harder to come by than before the firearm season .

Also, as for the late season, wouldn't bother me. I am already hunting the third week in November and also hunted Muzzleloader this year when it was below zero the last weekend. And, before anybody says it, no, I wasn't in a heated shack with windows, plain jane wooden stand and sometimes a ladder stand. It got cold, and I couldn't sit all day, but that was fine by me.