Injection Oil

[DTro]

This summer I accidentally bought some Sea and Snow oil at Fleet Farm thinking I was buying 2 stroke mixing oil for my outboard. It’s not TC3W rated though so I never used it in the outboard.

Is it ok to use this stuff for my injection oil in my sled?

[Shack]

I do not see why not. I found this on Sea and Snow!

Quote:

C I T G O P e t r o l e u m C o r p o r a t i o n H o u s t o n , T e x a s • M a d e i n U S A

CITGO SUPERGARD

Sea and Snow 2-Cycle Engine Oil is a synthetic blend, low smoke oil designed for use in high performance air-cooled or liquid two-stroke engines of Personal Water Craft (PWC) and Snowmobiles.SUPERGARD Sea and Snow 2-Cycle Engine Oil is engineered for lower smoke and advanced protection for air-cooled 2-cycle engines. The synthetic blend formula meets or exceeds the rigorous requirements of the API TC, JASO FC and ISO EGD classifications for 2-cycle air-cooled engine oils and also exceeds the performance requirements for JASO FA, JASO FB, ISO-L-EGB, and ISO-L-EGC.

This advanced oil helps protect today's high performance air-cooled 2-cycle engines against exhaust port blocking, combustion chamber and piston deposits, ring sticking and scuffing, and wear. The JASO FC Certification Number is 001 CGO 535.

SUPERGARD Sea and Snow is formulated with premium CITGO base oils and a new synthetic low ash additive package that provides excellent lubricity and detergency performance that surpasses standards for preventing piston and combustion chamber deposits. In addition, SUPERGARD Sea and Snow is a synthetic blend which reduces exhaust smoke and prevents piston seizure and cylinder scuffing. SUPERGARD Sea and Snow is prediluted to allow easy mixing with gasoline and smooth flowing in oil injection systems.

CITGO SUPERGARD Sea and Snow 2-Cycle Engine Oil is recommended for use in air-cooled, 2-cycle applications where an API TC, JASO FD, and ISO EGD product is preferred. It can be used in either premix or oil injection systems up to 50:1 fuel ratios. It may also be used in certain motorcycle engines which are liquid cooled. Not recommended for engines requiring an NMMA TC-W3, TC-WII, or TC-W product.

SUPERGARD Sea and Snow is formulated primarily for use in snowmobiles and personal watercraft. It can be used in motorcycles, generators, lawnmowers, and hand held power equipment such as leaf blowers, trimmers, and chainsaws. SUPERGARD Sea and Snow provides the necessary protection to keep your snowmobile or PWC running cleaner, longer, and with less smoke.

QUALITIES:

APPLICATIONS:

DESCRIPTION:

TYPICAL PROPERTIES:

CITGO SUPERGARD® SEA AND SNOWTM 2-CYCLE ENGINE OIL

Material Code 621612001

Gravity, ASTM D 4052, °API 32.5

Density, lb/gal at 60°F 7.19

Flash Point, PMCC, ASTM D 93, °F (°C) 158 (70)

COC, ASTM D 92, °F (°C) 194 (90)

Viscosity, ASTM D 445, cSt at 40°C 56

cSt at 100°C 8.5

ASTM D 2161, SUS at 100°F 288

SUS at 210°F 54.9

Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 126

Pour Point, ASTM D 97, °F (°C) -44 (-42)

Appearance, Color Purple

Sulfated Ash, ASTM D 874, % 0.10

Total Base Number, ASTM D 2896, mg KOH/g 1.1

C 1 0 0 0 8

P R O D U C T I N F O R M A T I O N

C I T G O S U P E R G A R D ® S E A A N D S N O W TM

2 - C Y C L E E N G I N E O I L

D a t e 0 1 / 0 8

[NAMASafetyDirector]

I wouldn't use anything in a late model sled that's not TC-W III! I would use it up in your weed whacker, chainsaw,leaf blower etc. and run the good stuff in your sled for piece of mind on not hurting your motor! It to darn expensive to fix a burned down sled these days!! Just my 2 cents

[Shack]

I called Polaris and they directed me to Pro-Sports in Ramsey. I called their parts department and they said this oil would fine to use in Dtro's sled. I explained to them what he has and what oil he is going to be using. They said it was fine.

They went on to tell me about the NMMA TC-WII rating and it is only applicable to water use 2 strokes. The TC pertained to "anything water" and should be followed if using an outboard or PWC requiring a NMMA TC-WII rating.

I am curious NAMASafetyDirector on where or what you base your findings on? The further I have investigated this oil, the more I like to use it for my sleds. Short of some personal feelings about it being owned by CITGO, I have not found anything (in any of the small eng. and snowmobile chat rooms where people asked the same question as Dtro) that recommend not using the product.

[DTro]

I guess the only thing I cared about was.

1. It being safe to use

2. Getting rid of it, since I bought by mistake

If I find that it works OK, I might continue to buy it as it was considerably cheaper than the Polaris brand oil.

[NAMASafetyDirector]

Shack, honestly I don't have any scientific data or findings to support my comment, I guess I am just one of those skeptics that likes to stick with what the manufacturer's reccomend for use. From now on I'll try to make sure I have data instead of opinions to support my posts! Sorry if I confused anyone...

[Shack]

NAMASafetyDirector I was wondering if you had further info on the NMMA TC-WII rating. There is not a lot of info about it on the net that I could find and the parts people at the local Polaris dealer did seem to know about it right off the top of their heads (like its been asked before or they went threw training).

I figure if you had more info, bring it on up. Like I said I am thinking of using this oil (price is nice) and the last thing I would want to do is direct anyone in the wrong direction. Also, personal experience and feeling are valued also (poking around chat rooms is all you pretty much get from doing that) .

[NAMASafetyDirector]

The more I read the description of this oil in the article above the more confused I get! In one sentance they claim it's safe for snowmobiles etc, etc.. then in the 4th paragraph they don't reccomend it for vehicles requiring a NMMA TC-W3 rated oil. After doing some digging around I really didn't come up with any more earth shattering infomation on the differences etween II & III other than III has additives in it to remove the ash created from burning the oil. With that said..depending on the type of sled that DTRO has would depend on whether or not I guess "I" would run the stuff or not. If it's an older liquid cooled sled without exhaust valves or an air cooled sled it would probably work! However, based on what I have read it might create issues with a sled that has exhaust valves due to an increased level of gumming or carbon deposits. This could also cause the same issues with the rings and carbon build up on the pistons as well as contribute to plug fouling. So,it depends on the sled and how much you have invested in it. If you have a $6-10,000 sled I wouldn't reccomend skimping on some sub par oil, if it's a $500-2000 buggy then I would tend to be a little less picky about the oil. Again guys, these are just my opinions, I'm not an expert but I have been working on 2 strokes for 15 years, for pleasure and racing so I understand the importance or quality oil and protecting your investments! Sorry so long, I get windy sometimes!

[Black_Bay]

The found the following on a lubricant site. It explains the ratings pretty well.

Specifications for Two Stroke Oil

NMMA TC-W3 – two cycle water-cooled, third generation. TC-W3 obsoletes TC-W & TC-WII. Oils with this spec do not use metal based additives, and are ashless. This is an outboard specific spec.

API TC – only API spec established for two cycle engines. It regulates lubricity, detergency, ash content & pre-ignition. Oils with this spec are typically using metal based, ash producing additives.

JASO FA – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.

JASO FB – increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FA.

JASO FC – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.

JASO FD - same as FC with far higher detergency requirement.

ISO-L-EGB – same tests and requirements as JASO FB.

ISO-L-EGC – same tests and slightly higher detergency requirements (piston varnish) as JASO FC.

ISO-L-EGD – same tests and requirements as JASO FD.

API JASO ISO

FA

Good FB EGB

Better TC FC EGC

Best FD EGD

• National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) is based in the USA.

• American Petroleum Institute (API) is based in the USA.

• Japanese Automobile Standards Organization (JASO) is based in Japan.

• International Standards Organization (ISO) is based in Europe.

These specs are established by different governing bodies located in various parts of the world. They all serve the same purpose; to give consumers a quantifiable way to measure the quality of 2 stroke oil.

What does all this mean for your snowmobile, dirt bike or PWC?

Most OEM 2 stroke oils fall in either the JASO FB/ISO-L-EGB (Good) or JASO FC/ISO-L-EGC/API TC (Better) category, although the container and the owners manual will never actually list an oil spec. OEM’s prefer just to recommend their private label product and tell you there is no known equivalent. It is easy not to have a “known” equivalent if you do not look for one.

The toughest spec currently obtainable for two stroke oil is JASO FD/ISO-L-EGD. Any oil listing an JASO FD/ISO-L-EGD rating is preferred for a snowmobile, dirt bike or PWC. Common sense should tell you, using an oil (including OEM oil) that does not list a rating usually means it does not obtain these ratings, otherwise why would they not want to list on their product.

I'd use it.

[DTro]

Thanks guys for all the digging. Sounds like it shouldn’t harm my sled.

Whenever a bunch of Acronyms are thrown in there it gives me a headache, thanks for deciphering that a bit for me Black Bay.