Carbon Monoxide in Portable

[Fishn'Lady]

His malfunctioning Mr. Heater didn't have the bright orange glow to it. It was dim or almost black looking, plus he just wasn't getting the heat out of it that he should have on high. We had ours burning on low with more than enough heat while he was freezing with it running wide open. I would suggest you bring along a CO detector if you are concerned, like I said it saved his and his kids lives. His CO detector didn't have a digital readout of the ppm's like ours but it going off was enough concern to look into why it was. I hope this helped. Again, be safe and good luck.

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Fishn'Lady

[the big dipper]

Hey Derek J. it looks like CO poisioning symptoms:
Mild symptoms of CO.
*Headache/nausea
*Feeling of lightheaded,dizziness
*Flu like feeling
Strong symptoms of CO
all of above and
*Blurred vision
*Delusions/hallucinations
*Anger/argumentitive,

Are a lot like the symptoms of excessive C2H5OH (aka. BEER) consumption.

This ice fishing is getting to be a high risk activity.

I guess I would recommend buying a very thick extreme rated sleeping bag, and sleeping with the stove off in a portable, unless you have a direct vent (i.e. stovepipe) hooked to your heater. With a stove pipe unit it not only takes the stove exhaust outside, but it also draws in fresh "make up air" into the shack. You wont get the headaches or worse. A lot of the heaters are pretty efficient and the stovepipes don't get real hot, but you'd have to cut a hole and probably glue a sheet metal piece with a hole for the flue to go through to the ceiling of the shack. Another plus is that these stoves are generally great to cook on.

It would be great if you could use a piece of pvc vent pipe like these new high efficiency gas furnaces instead of metal stove pipe. Anybody tried this?

[This message has been edited by the big dipper (edited 02-14-2003).]

[This message has been edited by the big dipper (edited 02-14-2003).]

[Guest]

Alcohol also reduces the amount of oxygen absorbed into you bloodstream just like CO. So combining excessive drinking, impaired judgement, and fishing without a CO detector you could be in for some trouble. Also, the more oxygen in your bloodstream, the quicker your body will metabolize alcohol.

A little aviation trivia for you: At sea level, the average person takes about three hours to metabolize an ounce of alcohol. (not a shot, but one full oz. of alcohol) At 12,000 feet the average person will take nearly four times that.

Better watch how much you drink when your out skiing in Colorado. Or on your plane trip out there. You can actually wake up with a bad hangover and feel drunk again if your buddy took you out flying. Not from the motions, but from the thinner air and lack of oxygen.

[Guest]

I'm a physician, and if memory serves correctly CO binds permanently to the receptors on red blood cells that normally bind oxygen molecules. This is why people with CO poisoning often look flushed, their red cell receptors are all occupied and this is reflected in the color (why aterial blood is bright red and venous blood is dark red). CO kills by gradually decreasing the amount of oxygen the red cells are carrying, until tissue needs for oxygen(esp.the brain's) are not met. Simply moving into fresh air does nothing to help other than avoiding more CO. The red cells are eventually replaced by new ones, which have available oxygen receptors on them.

Treatment consists of administering oxygen, transfusion with red blood cells, and in extreme cases, placing the person in a hyperbaric chamber such as is used to treat divers who get the bends...these chambers are few and far between, I think that Hennepin County Medical Center has one.

The best prevention is to take steps to avoid CO over-exposure in the first place, CO detectors are a good idea. Just an FYI, cops in major cities are often "punished" by being assigned traffic control on foot at intersections, and they get enough CO that they have to be switched off assignment after a couple days or so.

[Guest]

So are you saying if your being exposed to CO in a fishouse, getting out of the fish house into fresh air does no good? If someone is staying in a fishhouse for the weekend and experiences these symptoms, would you agree the best thing to do is vacate the house? Or do we wait until its too late and bring them to HCMC?

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[Guest]

Big dipper has the idea about the stove pipe, that's what I use and it gives off ample heat along with being able to heat up things on the flat surface with s.s.bowls. I wont put the gas lantern in the shack.If I'm with someone else fishing and they want to use the lantern for heat\light I tell them no!!!

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Just say yes to icefishing!

[the big dipper]

It sounds like this CO stuff is potentially a lot worse than the average guy thinks. I didn't know that the CO affixed more or less permanently to the blood cell. I always figured that 15 or 20 minutes of fresh air and you'd be back to normal. The fact that you need enough time for the body to regenerate cells to meet the body's Oxygen demand raises more questions.

If one had marginal coronary insufficiency, coupled with pre-symptomatic or first stage level CO poisioning would the risk of heart attack during physical exertion increase dramatically?

To ask the question another way; Would an out of shape fat guy who had a few beers, and had been sitting in his shack with the heater cranked and the windows closed for 3 hrs have a greater risk of having a heart attack when he's pulling his gear off the ice than that same person sitting on a pail in the fresh air?

It stands to reason that if CO starves the brain for oxygen, the heart suffers at the same time. Is this more or less accurate?

[Guest]

ReidM is exactly right. The following excerpt is from Guytons Textbook of Medical Physiology...

CO combines with hemoglobin at the same point on the hemoglobin molecule as does O2 and, therefore, can displace O2 from the hemoglobin. Furthermore, it binds with about 250 times the tenacity as O2.

For the seriously poisoned patient pure O2 is administered as well as a small percentage of CO2 in some cases as the CO2 will stimulate the respiratory center causing better lung ventilation.

250 times the binding power of O2...WOW!

[big_fish_guy]

this gives me an idea.
Not to make light of a very serious topic, but have any of you ever heard of O2 bars in California? You can go in, get a coffee or what ever and also a hit of pure oxygen. I wonder if I setup up on URL or Mille Lacs and charged a few $$ for a hit of oxygen.
Hmmmm..

[Guest]

Fushn'Lady,

Where did you get your CO detector? I assume that it is battery oprerated. After reading this thread, it has become obvious to me that I need to get one!

[icehousebob]

I've been a boiler engineer for 30 years so I have this combustion thing down. Fuel+ O2= heat+ CO2+ water vapor. If there is not enough O2,the combustion is incomplete and you get CO instead of CO2. The less oxygen, the more monoxide is formed. The two [lack of oxygen and CO] working together are a bad combination. Boiler equipment techs have told me that it is difficult to make a machine to tell the difference between CO and CO2. I have two CO detecters in my home just as a safeguard. The safest stove,if you can set it up, has a fresh air intake and a stove pipe exhaust that goes straight up above the fish house. A horizotal stove pipe can allow the wind to blow the combustion gases back through the stove. Bad setup. Sorry if this sounds like a lecture, but I lost a friend to monoxide. Exhaust broke on his light plane and leaked into the cabin.

[Fishn'Lady]

We got our battery operated CO detector I believe at Mendards, but I'm sure Home Depot has them too. The brand is a KIDDE or Nighthawk (same thing) with a digital read out so you can tell how many PPM's in the air. But I think as long as you have any brand with you, read out or not, that would be better than none.

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Fishn'Lady

[Guest]

Thanks for the info Fishn'Lady!

[Hastings gal]

Fishin Lady,
I have purchase 2 of the CO detectors that you are referring to. The first one made the water when we went to move the house - had to be replaced. Last weekend the replacement one I bought from the same WalMart - was constantly beeping with the error message the unit needed to be replaced. I did read in the manual that is is for temperatures above 40 degrees. Do you keep your detector inside your vehicle while traveling? I had the second one inside the topper covered box in a bag - suppose I froze it? I would like to get one that stays right inside our sleeper on the wall any suggestions? We did also go with a vented heater in our sleeper so we wouldn't have the fumes.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Fishn'Lady]

Hastings Gal,

We kept our detector packed inside a plastic tub with a lot of other goodies (extra batteries, fish scale, GPS, thermometer, extra fishing line, etc., etc.) in the back of our topper covered truck. Our average trip time was around 5 hours from home to URL. We might have had enough things packed around it to keep it warm. I never knew it had a temperature rating, that's a good thing to check out. I would think like everything else when you go from cold to warm it will fog up, maybe the sensor got wet from the temp. change and then couldn't read correctly which caused it to go off continuously. Just my theory. We never had a bit of trouble with ours. I'm not sure how his brother had his packed, probably similar, and his went off only because he was having a problem. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Maybe give Nighthawk a call?? Good luck!

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Fishn'Lady

[eats]

Big Fish Guy-

Somebody was hawking O2 shots in Walker over the weekend - unfortunatly I could have used one. I had all the symptoms Derek mentioned Friday night, head ache, nausea, hallucinations. I had spilled gas on my gloves earlier in the day and thought it was from the fumes...until the heater went out in the house. Well, I knew what was going on then and ordered the house packed up and back to the hotel. I was sick for a couple of hours until I finally fell asleep. Be safe and be smart.

brandon

[united jigsticker]

Yes, vacating the shanty upon first indication of a problem is the right thing to do. Nobody is questioning that.

The point being made strikes me as a serious warning. Be careful, because the effects of O2 poisoning can have permenent effects on your system and cause irreversable damage.