Telling size of fish with electronics

[deadeye]

The first time i used a vex was on Lake of the woods, and you could tell when the fish on the locator was a just a little 'eye or sauger versus a nicer 'eye or sauger. We figured this out when a school moved through and you could almost pick out the bigger fish. I would'nt say anything about this if i hadn't caught the fish that were the smaller less intense siginal on the locator. Trial and error proved to me that you can tell the difference by looking at the locator siginal.

[Bobb-o]

looking at the manual for my flasher and it says right in here that a wide signal indicates a large fish and that the larger the band the bigger the fish is. I think the only way this could be disputed is that you cant tell a fish is small unless it is at your bait b/c a large fish will appear small at the edge of the cone. So in conclusion, the larger the band the larger the fish!!!

[Guest]

Cropeye..I can tell because a bigger signal is a bigger fish.

PCG

[Guest]

You can definatly tell the general size of a fish by the signal on the screen. It stands to reason..... you adjust your gain so your bait shows green.Smaller fish will be yellow or just breaking to red and bigger fish will show red.The more red the bigger the fish.Assuming they are in the center of the cone and at the same depth.

[crappie todd]

Ok, well. actually folks.. ( the folks thing was originated by the Linders )while you can not necessarly detect the size of an indidual fish, you can determine almost the fish size in a school by the reading on the Vex.
This does take a bit of training. And that training comes by seeing enough of somthing happen enough times to compare it to it happening often enough to say HEY ! .. every time I see this look on my Vex....... it means this.
gobble dee gook you say... When you see a massive school of crappies. regardles of the time of year. ( I use my Vex year around ) and you see a certain density by the way your vex reads..... Not a single or a few single fish but rather a larger more dense reading..... Be rest assured these are more likely than not. not large fish but small fish.

I have not used a fl-18 with zoom. But I am sure this might reveal more.
Mabey with the zoom feature, I could actually see the lips of the gaurdian fish open and close.....suck and spit......
Folks. I need a fl-18
Crappie Todd
PS: it might be obvious by now I speak only crappie language. Blugills too. But crappies is my language. I need some one to teach me about walleyes...

[This message has been edited by crappie todd (edited 01-11-2003).]

[icehousebob]

Watch a northern take a shot at your Crappie jig once and you can definitely tell there's a size difference. I'm on my third generation of Vexilar so I've put a bit of time with them. Set your gain low and you can tell size differences in fish with a bit of practice. Keep in mind that you're getting a view from above. From a fourth story window, a fat five foot guy will look bigger than a thin seven footer. A one pound perch will look larger than a one pound crappie simply because of their profile viewed from above.

[crappie todd]

Let me ask this question...... VEX watchers.
when fishing towards the bottom, can you tell when a perch has given your bait a look and decided against it.?
Because if you can then you will realize in crappie fishing, the guardian fish does exist.
Crappies Todd.
Crappies INC.

[Ice Hole]

D-Man...next time you read an arc on your graph, guess how tall it is. If you compare that to your scale, you will notice that it is "larger" than it should be related to the depth scale, as with a flasher. (what you quoted about the air bladder etc)If you are talking about the LENGTH of the arc, you may be on to something, but I am willing to bet there is someone willing to dispute that. The length of that arc has to do with HOW LONG(time, seconds) the fish is in the cone. IF the arc is THICK and long(same idea as a WIDE fish on a flasher) you have a larger fish. When you see a thinner arc you know you have a smaller fish, or a fish not in the center of your cone. D-man, just out of curiousity, have you seen the liquid paper graphs and how they have the actual "flasher" as the leading edge? All your graph is, is a history of what the tranducer has seen. A flasher shows what the tranducer is SEEING at the moment. From either or you can guestimate how large/small the fish was. I use my Vexilar at least 4-5 days out of the week on the ice. I can tell the difference between a perch, a walleye, a crappie, a pike; all with my vex. With crappies in particular, you can tell when that red bar is going to be a better crappie than the last dinky one you pulled up from the same depth. I have found that its not so much when the fish is right on it that I can tell, but when the fish is moving up to my bait. Smaller crappies always turn into a weeker signal when they are coming up to it, and the larger crappies will stay a thinner red bar until they are right on it. I could give my theory on that, although it may be complete talk. Heres what I think. When that larger crappie(larger air bladder) is not in the center of your cone, it will still read as a decent signal, if its say, 3 feet outside your cone in 30 feet of water. If you had a smaller crappie(smaller air bladder) in that same position 3' outside your cone at 30' it would appear as a much weeker signal. This is all speculation, but its based off hours and hours of observation and 1000's of crappies. I don't just think I can tell the size...I KNOW I can...I am rarely wrong when I say "I am playin with a nicer fish here".

[Eyewitness]

Having caught hundreds of walleye and crappie using my vexilars, I can assure you that if you retain a constant gain setting and keep it at the minimum needed to see your bait, there is no doubt that you can tell fish size. Does the signal change when the fish enters the cone? Sure it does, but look at the amount of area that a typical 19 deg. transducer is seeing when in say, 20-25' of water. It isn't very large. When ice fishing, once a fish has entered the cone to look at the bait, the signal doesn't really vary in size that much. The change in signal, or fade in/fade out of a fish happens rather quickly and you can see it happen as the fish enters or leaves the cone. Once in the cone though, all things being equal (no change in gain setting), you can definately learn how big a fish is in relation to the size of the band you see. You just need to catch a bunch and pretty soon it all becomes clear. I've fished with a lot folks who just don't understand the concept of gain setting on their flashers. More is NOT better. If you are seeing more than a light green line for your bait your gain is too high and it will be very hard to differentiate what you're seeing. Oh, and by the way, the industry still calls sonar depth finders, not fish finders. Probably cause a lot of the folks who use them can't tell what they're seeing anyway...

[roadkingclasic56]

Telling the size of fish on the flasher has been pretty easy for me. One perch- thin red line. Another perch comes in and slowly rises to the same depth as the first- thicker red line. Bigger fish like a crappie, walleye, shows thicker red line with an orange trim. I belived that these indications were a result of the size of the target. I use a Zercom color point. Enjoy it a lot.

[Mr. Pike1]

I am sorry to have stirred the pot but very much enjoy reading the passion and convictions of the Vex users (of which I am one with the recent purchase of the FL-18). For those of you who have one of these "defective" Vex units that appear to be infected with a virus that causes your sonar unit to display aqua view like technology (size, species, etc.) I recommend that you return it to your local dealer right away for a full refund. I only hope that this virus does not mutate and infect the underwater camera community. Imagine the uproar if this devise designed and engineered to show you size and species actually only returned a signal back to the end user....I shutter at the thought..Yikes !!!

[Cyberfish]

><}}}("< ---I don't know if I buy into the "reads only the air bladder" thing. I throw old waxies and minnow parts down the hole and I mark them as they are going down, weeds too. mabye the air bladder gives them a stronger mark, but you would still mark fish if they did not have them.

I dont believe you can mark species or size like you can on a camera, but you can pick up clues though. If you got the gain set right so that your jig is just a green line,, you can usually tell when dinky panfish are around. if they come up to your bait and bite, and you never get a solid red mark, but it either stays green or flickers from red to green. I understand that a larger fish on the edge of the cone would flicker too, but when it is right at your bait straight down, and still does this, it has been a small fish every time I have caught it.

Cameras are neat, but they only can show a small area. if you don't have a flasher too, you are missing missing all the fish above and below where you have the camera set. Both would be ideal, but if I could only have one or the other, I would take the flasher.

[Mr. Pike1]

Before any of you begin to return your Vex units due to "defect". Please do the following bit of trouble shooting:

1. Does your ability to determine size and species increase in proportion to your consumtion of alcohol. this syndrom is know as VWI (vexing while intoxicated)

2. Do you use a propane heater and lantern in an improperly ventilated shack. If so this will deplete the oxygen level and can cause the brain to hallusintate.

3. Have you read the directions and familiar with how to use the gain and properly position the unit in ice hole.

If you answered yes to question one and two do not return the unit this is simple user error.

If you answered yes to question 3 and your unit continues to identify the species and size of fish below the ice please return the unit as it is "defective" and not performing as it was designed and engineered to do.

[Gordon Fothergill]

We all must be nuts. Just think of all the other info. we determine by that mark on our electronics.

1. Fish approaching?
2. The staredown
3. Fish losing interest, leaving?
4. Small fish, came in fast, up high, tullibee?
5. **** it, my jig is spinning!
6. dump, my minnow came off!
7. Bla, Bla, Bla,

We all know what I am talking about. Now I wish it was all true.

I knew this subject would get some interest!

[Guest]

I did a lot of thinking about this question last night and if all variables are held constant (gain, dept, transducer placement and the depth you are fishing) just before a fish bites, it should be in relatively same place in the cone as any other fish that is going to bite. If all these are held constant, then it would be possible to tell the size of the fish based on the signal strength. However, that is a lot of variables to keep constant. Scott Steil

[Guest]

thank you Scott

[Guest]

Bigger fish=more fish in the cone=bigger signal on the vex.

[Guest]

Ice i see the point of the LCG. I did more reading on it and it there is material that does state that fish size cannot be determined on a LCG either. There's alot of Pro tourney anglers i know that pre-fish looking for big fish only?

So, what happends when a fish enters your Vex cone, and another fish is either under that fish, on top of that fish, or there are two fish withing an inch of your bait? What if two fish or even three fish come to your bait at the same time? What happends when a fish turns sideways which has been seen many times on camera?

If you can tell the size of the fish, why doesnt the bars get bigger than a 1/2 inch?

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[This message has been edited by D-man (edited 01-11-2003).]

[Guest]

But isnt that the same thing? If it is more dense,wouldnt that mean more mass? witch is the reson for the THICKER more red signal,I know that density and mass are not the same thing, were talking about fish here,not metels or somthing right?It just seems odd that at the same depth you could put down a 2"shiner and a 8" sucker, witch one will give you a wider signal at that depth,with tha same gain, Id bet the sucker...Disagree?

[Mr. Pike1]

Could, would, maybe, should, might, I think, I believe, I want to believe.

Final Answer:

Undrerwater camera- Identifies species and actual size

FLasher- Identifies fish/targets as they enter the angle of the cone with strength increasing as they enter the most optimal point in the cone.

[Guest]

And when a small fish enters the cone it will display the strongest possible reading for the amount of "reflection" it gives back to the transducer, being less then a larger fish. Larger fish will send a great "feedback" and the signal in turn will also be larger.

Relative proportionism to the size of the fish corrolates to the strength of the signal.

PCG

[Mr. Pike1]

Pro Crappie guide. You make a good point however the logic is tragically flawed. mis-interpreting data can create false results.

Here is an example. Lets say you made a graph of drownings and ice cream sales in the state of Minnesota in the month of July. You would notice that both are much higher in July then in January. You could falsly cooralate this date to mean that increased ice cream sales are a function/cause of drowning. The fact is that weather/temp is the driving force.

You are falsly interpreting data to mean something that it simply does not have the ability to do.

[Guest]

I have been judging fish sizes for 4 years now using my Vex. Yes, there are alot of variables, but with alot of experience a fella learns alot and records his findings in the old noodle on his head.

If everytime I see the same thing in similar situations, and I get the same results then I believe it to be 99.9% accurate. No it wont be fact, but after this much experience I think I have a good record of evidence to back me up.

Do you have experience and facts proving that this can not be done?

I can't find anywhere that Vex says it is impossible.

It has worked for me... ok.. maybe 99 times out of 100...

If it doesn't work for anyone else thats fine. But others here have stated the same or similar case to my own.

Just because one hasn't personally experienced something does not mean it doesn't exist.

PCG

[This message has been edited by GullGuide (edited 01-14-2003).]

[Guest]

A fish is in the center of the cone and at its max feedback reading 2 bars and you catch it...It is 6".

The next fish comes along, and at it's max strength is 4 bars...You would guess it is a bigger one...At least I did.

And when I landed the fish it was 10"...bigger then the 6" that showed up at 2 bars...

The fish shows up at ITS OWN possible feedback strength...Not the units maximum readout strength.

Over and over this went, and soon I believed.
My Vex is an even greater tool then I ever imagined.

PCG

[This message has been edited by Pro Crappie Guide (edited 01-11-2003).]

[Mr. Pike1]

Pro crappie guide. I love my Vex and I love the discussions on this board. I am simply stiring the pot and do not doubt anything you have said. Fish on my friend !!!!