GETTING A DOG! What kind

[LABS4ME]

I had a few friends and aquaintences who ran Chessies. Again there are some wonderful ones out there... but you need to do even more homework to find one that will be free of inherited disorders. The last time I looked at the dysplasia incidence in Chessies, it was close to 50%. Again some have a wonderful disposition and some are surly... Most all are very slow to mature... that is where they get the 'stubborn' tag placed on them. It actually isn't stubborness, but a lack of muturing. Most times you can add an additonal year of training onto a Chessie to get them to a level that is comparable to other retriever breeds. Die hard waterfowlers love them... they are work horses. In my opinion they are not a great choice for a 1st dog that you want to try training.

If you are going the "British" lab route... you may want to 'pad' the budget a little more! I'd be surprised if you got into one for less than $700... $1000 would be more the norm. This is for 'true' British lines. English dogs bred to English dogs. English dogs bred back to American dogs do not command near the price and having some English line in your pedigree shouldn't elevate the price more so than a comparable "American" lab pup. Many so called "British" labs are only partially "British", but they still advertise them as "British" pups and charge you more based on them being marketed as "British". Many fine kennels breeding true British dogs... do a search and ask many questions of them when you find one with a litter of pups.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Dahitman44]

For the money and temperment, I think the yellow lab is tthe best dog. It is also my favorite so I am biased. Labs are great with kids and are always there to please you. They are very smart and have very funny expressions.

I would get a lab with good lines, however. I have two and they are great. My 1.5 year old is half upland game dog and half water bird dog. He is a fantastic creature.

You can't go wrong with a lab.

Get a male -- should cost between $400-$600 for a nice one. a little cheaper if not as good of blood lines.

Good luck.

hit

[verg]

yeah chessies have had some bad raps but no where near the issues today's labs face. I worked with a pro trainer last summer that had two. They were unreal as far as instinct. He said they weren't hard to train at all just different. They are quite intelligent. Over the past several years good breeders have breed out MOST of the aggressiveness in chessies. Again, if you go to a reliable breeder, you should have no problems. And, what Labs4 said isn't true anymore. 20 years ago they did have issues with hips but in my research they are no more likely now than any other retriever breed. Again, the reason i have interest in them is from what i've researched, about 95% of the breed has retained an unreal natural hunting instinct - because they are not overbred. And actually if you talk to most chessy breeders at the the many i've chatted with, they want most people to think they have health or temperament issues. They want this so they don't have the same fate as labs or goldens. I have researched them now for 2 years and have talked to many many breeders around the country. They are worth your while to check them out. Their is a breeder in ND. He said he has chessies as small as 60lb and some up to 90lb. Most guys i talked to that switched to a chessy were very apprehensive at first, but all said they'll never go back to another breed. They are super house dogs as well. A very laid back breed.

I am no expert on this breed but have done lots of research and am thinking of taking the plunge with one too.

ps I do agree with Labs4 that if this is your first dog, a chessy may not be your choice. As i said, they aren't hard to train it's just that you have to make them think that everything was their idea. Training experience is handy.

[LABS4ME]

Quote:

---

yeah chessies have had some bad raps but no where near the issues today's labs face. And, what Labs4 said isn't true anymore. 20 years ago they did have issues with hips but in my research they are no more likely now than any other retriever breed.

---

According to the OFA HSOforum...

Percent of abnormal hips in Chessies 21%

Percent of abnormal hips in labs 12%

You can multiply those numbers by 2, because many of the owners whose dog's hip will obviously fail, will not send in their x-rays to be officially evaluated.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, but I feel fairly confident I know something about the breed. I actually named the most recent winning-est Chessie to run the circuit... FC - AFC Caroway's Wild Goose Chase. I named him for the original owners that ran him prior to Roger Reopelle buying him. They had bought 3 other Chessies prior to getting 'Chase' (hence his name 'wild goose chase')... all had hips that failed. All were from two of the most reputable Chessie breeders in the country. It happens in the breed. It is not a knock on the dog. They are very good hunters... they are more stoic in their attitude, and thye take a very different tact in training.

With that said, a lot of homework will minimize the risk in getting a Chessie pup with inherited disorders, but I think your odds are still greater than with a lab or golden out of several 'clear' generations in the pedigree.

Good Luck!

Ken

[cw642]

Labs4me, it seams you overlook the rest of the leg problems Labs have. Although they rank lower in hips thier elbows and patella rankings are far worse than the Chessie's. If you add them up it is apparent that labs are a far greater gamble on the leg health than the chessie.

Labs Hips-12.2% Elbows-11.4% Patella-14.2% Total-37.8%

Chessie Hips-21.1% Elbows- 5.4% Patella- 0% Total-26.5%

Some may not know what a Patella is. It is a deformation in the knee. It makes a dog just a lame as a hip or elbow problem. Like you said Ken you can more than double these numbers as they are only the x-rays sent in.

Now as for mental health of a chessie...I have an opinion which I'll just keep to myself.

CW

[Ufatz]

Boys, boys, boys. We all know this argument and also the fact that it never ends. Having spent quite a bit of time aroud both breeds I would have to offer this: Chessie;tough,not as easy to train or handle. Dependable in all weather- pretty much a one man dog. Will tolerate a family but thats all-tolerate! Labs (I only speak of B.Labs) Easy to train and handle. Eager to please. Good upland or waterfowl.Very intelligent when you get a WELL bred black dog. While the Chessie is and has been a dedicated waterfowl dog, there is really not as much use or call for them today in the times of limited bag limits. They are both wonderful dogs when treated right and trained with conscience.

Now if you REALLY wanna see a totally stupid and useless dog take a look at my wifes Toy Pomeranian!

[Bryce]

... And then you throw in the black comment. Mind if my chocolates circle your blacks back into their kennels? Pretty sure someone on here has a yellow running trials right now or recently. If you think your black can hold a candle to a trial dog, I suggest you fade back to your world with the black sky.

[ReelTimes]

I agree with most of the characterizations of the breeds noted. It is really all about probability of getting an intelligent, trainable, good hunting dog. You have higher probability with certain types of breeds and/or colors (as noted in prior posts) but it certainly doesn't mean you can't find a great dog despite the probabilities. Just do your home work and get the dog you want. Once you own a dog and become attached, it is difficult to get rid of a dog if it doesn't meet expectations. Because of that, some guys just prefer to play the odds a little more and have them tilted in their favor but that doesn;t mean you can't find a good chessie, yellow or chocolate lab, etc. Also, everyones expectations are different. Some may want to be competitive in trials or hunt tests as well as hunting while others may just be a weekend warrior a couple of times per year. The expectation for those dogs will be vastly different. I would just be sure to do more due diligence in selecting one of the breeds or colors that have lower probability. That doesn't mean don't get one but just do your homework

[Ufatz]

You got it.

[kaz2611]

I have hunted over a variety of breeds,labs, springers, retrievers, german shorthair. I myself only owned a black lab so im somewhat biased but having the oppurtunity to have hunted with these other breeds i have found they all capable of being great hunting dogs. What it boils down to is what breed you want and which is best suited for your type of hunting wether it be waterfowl or upland game. Another key to remember is which breed will require more of your time. You will have to spend time working with them to keep them exercised and in shape so when hunting season comes around they are ready to go. Nothing worse than hunting with an worthless dog. Another thing is if your married and have kids is to find a breed that suits the entire family. Just my .02 GOOD LUCK ON FINDING A NEW DOG AND HAPPY HUNTING.

[LABS4ME]

CW642,

The only problem with lumping all abnormalities together is this... Not all dogs have the same films sent in. ie: most (all) send in for hips... some send in for elbows and very few send in for patella. Here are the totals. Labradors - 185,781 hips - 37,700 elbows - 246 patellas. So in a lab only 20% of dogs having hips evaluated are being screened for elbows, and only .0013% are having their patellas evaluated. In Chessies only 11% having their hips evaluated are having their elbows evaluated and 0% sent in a patella film. So there is no way you can show it as a 'lumped' percentage. To do so, all dogs being evaluated would need to have the same three films sent in. The incidence of Labs affected by Patella sublaxation is no where even close to 14%... in reality, it is probably a fraction of 1%... I've only seen one case personally of sublaxed patellas in a Lab. Just as I would bet there are some limited cases of sublaxed patellas in Chessies. I'd bet many of the "246" lab films sent into the OFA were done for puppy guarantee purposes.

My first female I bred in the late 80's had her hips screened. Then in the early 90's we found out about elbow dysplasia and started screening for that. The last 3 females I've used to breed had their hips and elbows screened and OFA'd. The last 1 had shots of her patellas taken and were noted by the vet as normal and but were not sent in to the OFA.

So the way to read this is not as a percentage of dogs, but percentage of films evaluated, per abnormality. I was using the hips as an argument, because it is the most evaluated part of the animal.

I agree that patellas are an upcoming disease that breeders would be wise to begin screening for. Unfortunatley, many will wait until it is a widespread problem and then begin to try to 'weed' it out. As Verg has noted, there has been cases of indiscrimanant breeding of Labs. I know of titled dogs who were bred in the past who were dysplastic, but still bred none-the-less... doing so sets back that pedigree at least 2-3 generations. They make their 'buck' and leave the mess for someone else to clean-up. On the flip side, many people are willing to buy dogs without health clearances, and many of those carry on breeding their dog without any screenings... so it matters little if it is a 'pro' breeder or Joe Schmoe... if puppies aren't coming from 'cleared' parents, they should be passed on and look for a different litter.

Good Luck!

Ken

[cw642]

Labs,

As you well know I am not a retriever type of a guy. I do however realize that OFA certification is an important item to look for, in labs. I have to say thought I agree that most xrays sent in are for one of two reasons. To receive a refund or to prepare to breed. The average guy doesn't spend the money on xrays, then send them in for another $150 to get a piece of paper that says his dogs hips are good. So with that in mind, are OFA stats a true representation of a breed? I think not. Then you also pointed out the total % of all tested for patellas. Yes its a small %, but does it show a problem exist, Yes. Now to be fair it should be pointed out that 185,781 labs have been tested, and only 10,823 Chesies have been tested since 1974. Is that a real good representation of all Chesies over the last thirty some years?

In dealing with English Pointers I have had people ask me if my dogs were OFA certified. Many don't understand that for the most part Pointers are not prone to the same problems that are caused by unthought-out over breeding. For that reason we can offer guaranteed hips to former lab owners without needing the OFA test done. The OFA is a good thing to look for in Labradors, but if you start looking for "cleared parents" in some breeds such as Pointers (1181 total tested, thats less than 40 a year) you will be looking for a very long time.

CW

[Dahitman44]

Screening or no screening -- I think the main point here is to get the dog you want. Do some homework and then let your "gut" make the call. It is rarely wrong. That is the way most of us do it. Research and screenings are great, but get the breed you want.

I almost got a chessie and almost a setter -- in thye end I am glad I got the lab. I grew up with spaniels but labs are the way to go -- at least for me.

Good luck and enjoy your new friend.

Hit

[SDbowhunter]

I personally vote for the lab as well. A lot of people will tell you that good breeding is important and im not going to tell you that its not. But my dog was a freebee from undetermined blood lines. A accident between a yellow and a black. But i know alot of people that have what they thought were "well bred dogs" One lab my buddy has is (Contact Us Please), hyper, annoying, and difficult to train. Another lady i work with has gwp that has to take medication for bladder problems. Both of these people had to pay $400 buck or more for animals that i wouldnt want. The key to a good dog is finding the puppy right towards the top of the litters pecking order. You dont want the most aggressive but the next one down would be my choice. One night after going out to the bar, my girl friend told me her parents had puppies. I get out of the car in front of the garage they were hiding in and call "Brutus come" (i guess i already had the name picked out) one little puppy came running up to me. I through a stick about 15 in front of me under the yard lights and he ran over there picked it up and brought right back to me. He was only 7 weeks old at the time. I new i had to have that dog papers or not. I guess it was fate. Now he is even starting to point. If only he had papers i wouldnt have had him neutered. If his life is shortend because of a lack of a pedigree so be it. This will be the best dog i will ever own. I had an amazing pedigreed golden retriever as a kid who died at 3 from cancer. Besides i saw a show on 2020 or something were they registered a domesitic short hair cat as a golden in akc. No system is fool proof and papers are no garuntee.