Bait and Switch no refund on deposit

[Markerboy1]

Last December we lost one of our family members a female lab after 12 years. In January we decide we wanted another lab and started looking for new puppy for June/July delivery. At the time we had no certain breeder selected and ask one of friends that runs field trial dogs if could assist in the pedigree and we began searching. February we located a breeder that had the Sir/Dam we were looking for and decided to put down a deposit. Because of the form rules I am going to substitute names for the Sir/Dam and call them Fred (Sire) and Wilma (Dam). On the breeders HSOforum he list the following statement “Black & Chocolate litter due March 2007 Fred (Sire) and Wilma (Dam) “. With the 200.00 deposit came a contract form the breeder to be signed and sent back. The contract is very open for the breeder but limits the buyer and reads as follows.

We have received the sum of $ __200.00___ as a deposit on a ( __ male, _X_ female, __ black, __ yellow, _X_ chocolate) Labrador Retriever (please check all appropriate choices). Balance due, plus applicable fees for health certificate, shipping crate and airport delivery. Litter pick number is 2 Buyer's intentions for this puppy include: __ Pet/Companion, _X_ Hunting, _X_ Field Trials and/or Hunt Tests.

Sire: ___ Fred ________Dam: ___ Wilma __Deposits are refundable only when a puppy of the above (desired) sex, color and description is not available from stated litter . No deposit will be refunded if Buyer changes his/her mind for any reason. The Seller will provide a HIP and EYE GUARANTEE at the time of sale. Seller makes no guarantee on the physical characteristics of these puppies.

We receive and email from the breeder stating the Wilma was not cooperating and he was not able to breed her but was able to use another Dam called (Betty) and wanted to know if this puppy would work for us.

After reviewing the pedigree on Betty along with the unknown delivery date for Wilma we decided this was not what we wanted. So we replied back by email stating because there is no March litter with Fred and Wilma we would like our deposit back.

Breeder replied back stating he will breed Fred and Wilma and has been waiting for 3 years and will not refund our deposit because we have a contract.

So to make a long story short I are we entitled our deposit back or are we stuck with the breeder’s waiting game? The signed contract was in good faith that the litter was due in March 2007.

There are several options that we can pursue but I would like some feed back before I move forward.

Thank you for your support

Markerboy

[xedge2002]

The way I read it is you should be entitled to your money back. You put a deposit in on a specific litter, if he is unable to come through with that litter you should get your deposit back. You cannot control that the desired Dam is not cooperating that is on his end. If I were in your shoes I would expect to get my deposit back. The tough thing is, is that he already has your money and if he wants to be a real a$$ can make it real difficult for you to get it back.

[Markerboy1]

xedge2002

The problem I see with this contract is there is no date specified and it could very well be 6 months or even next year before I see a pup from this litter. I want to wait until the end of March and see what info is posted.

Thanks for the reply

[xedge2002]

Quote:

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On the breeders

HSOforum

he list the following statement

“Black & Chocolate litter due March 2007 Fred (Sire) and Wilma (Dam) “.

---

To me if he has it listed on his HSOforum that they are due March 2007 that would be the date for the contracted litter. Does he still have that date up on his HSOforum? If so print it off for your records. It really sucks that a breeder would try to handcuff you like this. I agree that you should wait and see what other people think about your situation. Good luck with it!

[LABS4ME]

I hope you have a copy of the web site page that shows the anticipated date of the litter. That along with a copy of the contract and a dated cancelled check is all you need to get your money back. It will uphold in court as to the intent of the contract. If he decides at that point to not refund your money, take him to consiliation court and get a judgement from them. The contract clearly states that the only way a refund is available is if there is not a puppy available from stated litter.

Quote:

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Deposits are refundable only when a puppy of the above (desired) sex, color and description is not available from

stated litter

. No deposit will be refunded if Buyer changes his/her mind for any reason.

---

He is also not doing anything to help his image... I'm sure you would not send anyone to him to buy a pup at this point. If I were you, I'm not even sure I would recommend waiting for the next breeding cycle. It would probably not be a pleasant experience for you and if you have any health issues in which you need to deal with the breeder, this past history will come up and will create more stress in an already stressful time.

Point blank tell him you fully intended to follow through with your end of the contract, now you expect the same in return. You are not interested in another litter and are unwilling to wait to begin the process of starting a new dog. Demand that the deposit is returned immediatley and begin again in your search. I'm sure with effort you will be able to closely replicate the lines in which you were looking at.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Markerboy1]

LABS4ME

I was waiting for you post and Yes it is still posted on his HSOforum so I cut and pasted the listing into an html doc for future reference.

Another thing that is bothering me is the Sir/Dam 1st names are on the contract and not their legal names. We did not think about legal names when we signed the contract so there could a loop here for the breeder.

We have located another breeder that I think is a better pedigree and will be ready late April. This will give me some time before hunting season and hopefully the pup will be ready for some introduction this season. I may end up 200.00 short but like you said what about any health issues after the pup has been delivered.

Thanks for your post

[JDM]

Ditto. I would demand my money and I would do it both verbally and in written form. The written form is in case you end up in small claims court. Keep in mind that if you do go to small claims and win, it doesn't mean you will ever collect your money.

I would tell everyone I know about this guy. I would tell him that is your plan. In this situation, it is to bad that a HSOforum like this does not allow that. These people are obviously trying to take advantage of you.

[LABS4ME]

It really stinks that you have to go through this, but hold his feet to the fire. Get your deposit back. Resend him copies of e-mails and other corespondence showing what litter you had intentions on getting a pup out of, and tell him that he is not able to meet what was expected and you fully expect a refund of the deposit money. Do not let him keep it. I can't believe that this is even an issue with this guy. I hope it all works out. Save everything you have with him for ammo...

Good Luck!

Ken

[duckbuster]

Markerboy, you should have called me. I had a buyer back out (returned his deposit by the way) and you would have your new puppy this week.

I think what he is doing is wrong. Had the breeding took place and you changed your mind then no I wouldn't give your money back. In this situation it is pretty clear to me you should get it back.

Any chance you can put a stop-payment on your check?

If you are still looking for a pup let me know. I have a couple of litters I can push you to.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

[Markerboy1]

LABS4ME and JDM

I really hope this breeder is not one you know of because he runs in the middle to upper class litters and he really has some very good blood lines. There are ways to use the power of the internet and at this time I am holding off until the breeder gives me his final say on the phone. All the email correspondence was done with the Chief Financial Officers (wife) and she starting to give into the waiting game to see if there will be 2nd female choc. Monday I will follow-up with her forward emails to the breeder and see what happens. I will use your advice wisely and hope to end this learning experience soon. Thank you and have a greet weekend

Markerboy1

[Markerboy1]

Quote:

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Any chance you can put a stop-payment on your check?

If you are still looking for a pup let me know. I have a couple of litters I can push you to.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

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Duckbuster

The check was issued sometime back and I would assume he has cashed it but that is a good idea I will check on that route.

On the pup offer I am sorry we made decision on one last night and mailed a deposit today so I will need to pass but thanks for the input and post.

Markerboy1

[Bryce]

We never cash deposit checks and will return them. We would rather the pup go to a home where wanted. We usually don't even accept checks until the breeding has taken place. Just have a list that we call upon once the breeding has taken place. Cashing deposit checks prior to birth (in our case delivery to owner) is considered "bad karma" by many breeders. Hope you ran into one of these and can cancel check.

[lawdog]

Is that the entire contract or is there more? Is that specific fred-wilma litter mentioned anywhere on that document itself? If you wanted to scan and email me the contract and the HSOforum info I'd be glad to look it over for you quick for free and see if I have any easy ideas for how to approach it.

[email protected]

[Shack]

Lawdog,

I think you deserve the FM'er of the year award, or just at least be nominated. Way to go on helping out your fellow FM'er. That what these forums are about, helping our fellow outdoorsman. I do assume your are in the law profession , right?

[dogs]

“Black & Chocolate litter due March 2007 Fred (Sire) and Wilma (Dam) “"Deposits are refundable only when a puppy of the above (desired) sex, color and description is not available from stated litter ."

No is pup available from "stated Litter" that was "Due March 2007"...they are in default of the contract.

Also I would contend that there also is the "intent of a contract". Your not getting what you orignally agreed upon purchasing.

You deserve you money back..

I have bred a few litters and the last thing I want for a pup is to send it to a home where it was not wanted. I operated along the lines of Bryce; I did not accept deposits until the pups were born. Then I would just for the sake of the order of litter picking. I feel that if a couple hundred dollars is that big of a deal to me I would force a pup on someone, I should go get a parttime job at mcdonalds. Actually money wise I have had litter of 13 and got 700.00 a pup and still feel after stud and vet fees,birds,ads(so one can be choosey about buyers)ect that hourly, you are better off at Mcdodalds. But the little toads are a lot of fun. Also in the future I would leary of "The Seller will provide a HIP and EYE GUARANTEE at the time of sale. Seller makes no guarantee on the physical characteristics of these puppies". What are the conditions of the Hip and Eye guarentee?. "makes no guarantee on the physical characteristics" contradictory and way to broad for my taste. Hips, eyes, health, ect are physical characteristics. Sorry about turning this into my rant. Good luck. PS I am not a lawyer I just play one one the internet.

[LABS4ME]

I think the "physical Characteristics" was put in the contract to cover: size, body composition (tall, short etc)head shape, tail, etc.

I had a guy who called a couple of months ago who bought a pup out of my last litter and he wanted to know if he could bring his dog back after a little over a year... he was very disappointed that he did not take on the same head as the sire. I told him they aren't built on an assembly line... I asked what was wrong with him?, he said he's a great dog, almost too calm, hunted well for his first season, nice build and coat and looked good, but he really wanted his dog to get the sire's head. I said, sounds like he got a great dog... and not to worry if the head was a clone of the sire's and ended it there. He just called back this week, I just found out he sold the dog and he wanted to see when I was having my next litter... (wonder what my reply was...)

Good Luck!

Ken

[JDM]

I think that guy has come kind of an inadequacy complex, if you know what I mean. I think I would send him elsewhere. Great dog, but doesn't like the head? Unbelievable!

[dogs]

My point was "physical charteristics" in a contract is to vague. Personally I feel we ask to much of a breeder, but then breeders promise to much. One should research the dam and sire and accept some of the pitfalls associated with a life form. Like you said you cant stamp the out. I have bought dogs that had lifetime health guarentees. One of those dogs fell over dead on me in the field at 4. I never even brought it up to the breeder. One of the funest dogs I will ever get to work with. 250 a year is cheap fun. My friends cost me way more than that a year . I personally feel if someone can produce a perfect dog why are they not curing human birth defects. The most desirable characteristic as far as looks in a dog goes, say back and they are a blur, hit the whistle and they are a ball of dust, tougue out and ears up and tail going like a wiper on high.

Take care.

[LABS4ME]

Quote:

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say back and they are a blur, hit the whistle and they are a ball of dust, tougue out and ears up and tail going like a wiper on high.

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Perfect!!! and that my friends is why we own dogs!!!

Good Luck!

Ken

[Markerboy1]

I wanted to follow-up with a belated update. I called and talked with the breeder back on the end of March and our deposit was mailed and received. The breeder was trying to provide other options because the breeding had not taken place as scheduled. There was some communication break down on emails that started this thread and I may have jump sooner than needed. The breeder was going above and beyond the call by locating other breeder’s liters for us to pick from.

Thanks to all for your input and support

Markerboy

[LABS4ME]

Glad it all worked out!

Good Luck!

Ken

[lawdog]

Good to hear!

[brittman]

Why would a breeder want to sell a dog to an owner that does not want his dog?

Deposit should hold order / position for a specific litter and sex (ie 2nd male pup from breeding of this sire and dam).

If litter does not work out as planned, the breeder calls buyer and offers next in-line from next litter or money back.

Once buyer leaves with pup and it passes their own vet's health exam - only genetic specific health of the dog should be a legitimate reason for a return.

[dogs]

What the he11, gave us a good talk eh.