Vexilar FL-20 or FL 18

[rocky]

I recently bought a new FL-20 over the FL-18. While the unit itself is more than adequete for my style of fishing the couple of times I used it, it seems the actual depth display numbers on the face on this are much harder to read than the FL-18. I am thinking of selling the FL-20 and going to an FL-18 for this reason. Has anyone else has this problem or is it just me and a matter of getting used to it.

[Jason Hubbard]

yes the numbers are smaller. Just takes a little use,to get to know it.all in all I love my fl20 bigger display and it dont collect dump in display like the 18

[wiskodie1]

I believe fish graphs are a must on the ice, it can help you cut out a lot of bad water in a hurry, but I much prefer my Lowrance X67 to a flash graph of any type. Not saying flash graphs don’t work, but there is a lot better technologies on the market these days. Ill take a digitally enhanced graph with a large easy to read display over a flash graph any time. best of all it shows a time history on the graph, which helps identify fish and lures, with this feature you can afford to take your eye off the graph for a bit and not lose track of what’s going on, your buddy can take over your hole and know what’s been happening for the last 20 seconds at one glance of the screen. If you think it’s easy to see your lure and fish on your graph wait until you come out fishing with me and watch my graph. Then tell me which one is easier to read, understand, control. Sorry but flash graphs have been the only reliable ice fishing graph for so long, and have such a large following and word of mouth sales force that I don’t think anyone takes the time to look at what else is on the market. Even the salesman at the store tried to talk me out of buying the Lowrance in favor of a flash graph.

I was just out fishing a few weeks ago with my dad (he hates electronics of all types, thinks they’re a gimmick, and has a hard time operating and understanding them) and brother, my dad took one look at my Lowrance in action and turned around and told my uncle (who was looking to get a graph) to buy it. I will say this about flash graphs, they do work, and every time I see one, I think back to when I was a little kid watching my grandpa’s flash graph mounted in his boat 25 years ago.

I have worked with top of the line sonar systems most every day for the last 10 years.

Resume

United States Navy, Submariner, Sonar tech, 5 years

Deep-Sea Robotics, ROV Supervisor, 5 years and still going

[dec]

hate to be the one to tell ya but todays flasher (marcum or vexilar) is in fact much more sophisticated than the x67 graph.

the x67 in graph mode has a max vertical resolution of only 320 pixels, all modern flashers today easily exceed this by a wide margin. both vexilar and marcum flashers have a very complex interference rejection system that far out classes that of the x67. so yes the flasher has been around a long time, but todays flasher has evolved to the point where they can out perform a graph in most situations (the display of historical data is not one though).

so even though you prefer a graph to ice fish with, don't be fooled into thinking you moved up to a more modern unit in the x67.....you haven't.

duane cummings

sonar engineer 20yrs plus

and still going

[wiskodie1]

Fish on!!!!!!

Hello Mr. Cummings it’s nice to meet you, my name is Matt. And I would just like to say how nice it is to meet someone of your background out here in the middle of ice fishing country, as I understand it you work for Marcum technologies and were one of the inventors of the classy complex interference rejection system. Or in other words, you used circuitry(which is much smaller these days) that has been used in navy sonar systems since the late 70’s, as I understand it your circuitry has the ability to change the pulse rate 12 different ways. So if there are multiple sonar units all running a transducer at the same frequency, the operators of your units have the ability to change there pulse rate and in so doing, allows that sonar unit to better distinguish its own sound pulse from the other units around it. That is of course unless someone else has a Marcum set at the same rate and is close by. This of course will work great for anglers that spend large amounts of time in close proximity ice fishing tournaments such as the Brainerd ice fishing extravaganza. But like all things this feature is only as good as the operator controlling it. Your sonar units also have an echo return averaging circuitry that averages echo returns to help reduce random noise. As I understand it this also increases the chance of cancelling out returns from fish, especially if they are on the edge of the sonar beam, quickly changing depth, or even swimming at a fast rate. The circuitry will cancel out all returns that do not compare with an average of past returns. Not that this will happen on all fish of course, but anytime you cancel out raw return data you take a chance of losing relative data as well. I have also heard on the forums that Marcum’s have been known to have a tough time in weedy areas, could this be because of echo return averaging? First pulse bounces strongly off a weed at one depth, the next pulse bounces off the lake bottom at a different depth (keep repeating) and the circuitry cancels them out and doesn’t show anything steady? Not all of these futures are needed every day, but if you got the money to spend you might as well get all the bells and whistle’s to go with it. If I misunderstood any of your patent or worded it poorly please excuse me, and feel free to expand on and/or better explain it.

Truly the only problem I have with flash graphs are how they display there information. And in the end I consider this the most important aspect. Its not that I don’t understand what the flash graph is telling me or that the information that a flash graph displays is in-comprehendible. It’s that the information is not EASILY and quickly understood. Flash graph information does not clearly depict the environment. Reason for this is the flash graph is round!!! Often time’s part of the graph needs to be read upside down, sideways, and counterclockwise, while water tends to be stacked up on itself vertically.

We live in a world that displays our information in a square, i.e. TVs, LCDs, CRTs, it’s a fast effective way to depict information. And at the end of the day anything that makes a task faster and easer will win with consumers. That’s why you don’t see many flash graphs mounted in boats like you did 25 years ago. As for resolution at the moment a flash graph wins hands down. But comparing an LCD’s vertical pixel count to a flash tubes resolution is like comparing apples and oranges. The circumference of a flash graph is far longer then the height of an average LCD fish graph and to keep a LCD graph sonar’s cheap enough to compete with a flash graph, the pixel count and resolution will be lower, which will make for poorer target separation (stuff in the water that is close to other stuff in the water). now if I wanted to hook up a 19 inch LCD monitor that would be a different story. But in the end any single beam sonar system will have problems when trying to distinguish multiple fish when they are at close to the same depths or multiple fish on the same plain of the sonar beam, if you want to try a head count on crappie, I would say using a flash graph is your best bet, but since ALL single beam sonar systems (any system that uses only one beam at a time) depict there returns as being on the center of the sonar beam. any serious attempt at target separation remains a joke because the fish in question are not in the actual location that ANY fish graph displays them in. This point is not overly important. As long as you can see a group of fish and there depth in relation to your lure, then chances are you will be catching fish. Maybe even more with an LCD display since it is much easer to read. Once again I will go back to my statement that people in general, will find that the information on an LCD display is far easier and faster to comprehend, combine that with a time history of the bottom and you have a much more user friendly sonar system. Not the best all round, but then again the flash graph has its down sides too.

Ok Mr. Cummings you got 20 years in the sonar field to my 10 years. In that amount of time you should have already forgotten more then I have learned. So if you can show me the error of my ways and teach us all a little something about sonar systems in the process then I will welcome the knowledge. But please try and be a bit more informative then your last post i.e. “both vexilar and marcum flashers have a very complex interference rejection system that far out classes that of the x67” come on man you built these things, I expect more then just a “VERY COMPLEX”. Hell these days toasters are very complex.

Nice to meet ya, keep up the good work.

Take care

Sincerely

Matt Jones.

[CNY Tim]

Matt I would have to disagree with you asking for more from dec. MarCum has done the homework it's up to the competitors to figure out the rest, nice try though...

[tipup]

I have seen all 3 of the above mentioned units at work and as far as that goes I have a Vex and 2 others I know have Marcom and x67. I think that they are all good, I can pick out good and bad about all three, it would be great if someone could make a unit which incorparates all 3 ideas!!! Everyone I know regardless of what unit they own like and dislike somethings about their own, me included. But you know for me it boils down to I can get depth, see fish, and see my lure/bait and you know anymore than that and it would not be fishing anymore. So i say this, I love my Vex but would be happy with the others also. I would recommend any unit to anyone who is in the market, just get what you like and learn to use it well and understand it and you will be fine!!!

[dec]

tipup, you are right. i would not call any of these systems junk (marcum,vexilar,lowrance), just some work better than others.

i,m not sure how the disertation on sonar is relative to this thread, but in general most of what was said is correct. i don't think anyone would argue this. one point though, marcum's i.r. dosen't use pulse averaging, its just not how it works and thats all i will say on this point.

duane cummings

[wiskodie1]

Thank you for replying Mr. Cummings

Sorry about the long winded dissertation, but I thought it necessary in this case. As for being relative to the topic, Well that will depend on how useful are fellow ice anglers find the information. ( my personal feeling is that, good information is always relative) Considering that we have been discussing some of the finer points on flash graphs to LCD graphs in a forum that wanted information on two different types of Vexilar system, then, yes most of it is pointless to Mr. Rocky. This topic should have had its own separate post, but in the end it didn’t turn out that way. As to why I felt the dissertation necessary, well as a consumer posting my opinion on a topic, I have a chance of being unbiased and fair ( not that that is always the case with me or anyone else that posts there opinion) but you on the other hand have degraded my opinion, which coming from another consumer such as myself would have been business as usual on an open forum, but you are not a consumer in this specific case, you’re a developer and proprietor of Marcum technologies and cant really be considered to carry an unbiased and fair opinion on this topic. That would be like asking the guy that designed the Statue of Liberty what he though about the Eiffel tower compared to his own work. as a sonar engineer with 20 years of experience, I think it would be safe to say that your knowledge and ability to correct false information, far exceeds any ones else ability on this forum, but in the case of your reply to my opinion you really didn’t do that, instead you simply gave your own opinion, with very little information or explanation as to why you disagreed. Do to your back ground I had to, unfairly to you, assume your opinion was biased and back my own opinion with the long boring pointless dissertation.

As for pulse averaging… I believe I stated your system as “echo return averaging”. If that is not correct, please feel free to correct my terminology with a better description of your system.

And lastly to all my fellow anglers

I ask each of you

Of you, that own and fish from a boat, which type of sonar system do you use in your boat? LCD or FLASH GRAPH? What factors made you decide to choice it? Those of you that also ice fish, do you use the same type of sonar while ice fishing as what you have in your boat? Why or why not?

Sincerely

Matt Jones

[JollyT]

Interesting post. Just wanted to point one thing out. Gustave Eiffel built the Eiffel Tower and the internal structure of the Statue of Liberty. I take your point, just a bad example.

[kenlaker]

Matt, you seem to know a bit more than me on some of these issues, and are quite passionate about them, I can answer with what I use and why. On the ice I use an FL18 and in my boat I have a graph at the console for when cruising, which I turn towards the front when using the bow-mount troller, but also my Vex gets used up front in the boat. Your point about memory is why I use the LCR when running the lake, as you can look away for a moment and still not miss what you have passed over at higher speeds, but when slow trolling or stationary as in hard water, it may be just that that's what I've gotten used to, but I'll take the flasher over the LCR. I used to use my old Eagle 7200 LCR on the ice rigged in a portable box that I built, so I have a little knowledge of how that type of system works on the ice, and I prefer the flasher for the reason that I seem to be able to understand what's going on below me better than just seeing the real-time on the extreme right side of the screen. Not trying to argue, just giving the 2 cents that you requested. I welcome your comments back.

[wiskodie1]

LOL great, just my luck!!! I step out of my element for one second trying to make a point and get blind sided by a school buss. LOL

Thanks JollyT that was great. Man you just can’t get away with anything on these open forms. LOL

Hi Kenlaker

Thanks for the post that’s just what I was looking for, you use, or have used both types of graphs on the ice, and still use both in your boat. It sounds like you understand your equipment and have set it up to optimize it year round, and you’re aware of the ins and outs of each. I don’t think an angler could ask for a better setup.

I only make it out for about 6 fishing trips a year, 3 summer, 3 winter, give or take one either way. I really didn’t have a need to own two graphs(yet ), so in the end I picked the LCD, it fit all of my needs. My original post was just to let others know that there are some good LCD ice fishing graphs on the market, and that vexilar and marcums don’t have to be your only choice. Then Mr. Cumming and I got a bit grumpy with each other and you end up with a post like this , all in all I think there was some good info put into the post and I hope those that read it find it at least a bit useful. The reason I asked everyone to post about there boat and ice graph, is because there are a lot of anglers out there that own both types of graph just like you, and I was hoping they would post there opinion about there OWN equipment, and realize that at the end of the day, all units have good points and bad. In the end they all do the job. I don’t know many guys that talk bad about there own gear; they’re proud of it and proud of what they can make it do for them.

why do so many people prefer LDC graphs in there boat, and then turn around and totally discount them as a option for ice fishing, wouldn’t it stand to reason that if you can find and catch fish in your boat with an LCD that you would be able to do the same thing on ice? And if you’re a guy that uses flash graphs year round and it works good for you. No problems here.

[Vallejo]

One reason that I like a flasher for ice fishing is that I am absolutely stationary and not bobbing and weaving around with the waves. With the graph on softwater you can see where you have been and if you have drifted off the structure.

[OldBear]

I would like to hear more on the original question of Vexilar 18/20. The brand war gets old.