Getting More Hooksets?

[CANOPY SAM]

I've been thinkin" a lot lately (with the warmer weather teasing us) about how I could possibly increase the number of hookups I make with flatheads. I'm really a newbe to these fish, but I had quite a few solid runs last year that I thought would end with a good hookset. Unfortunately, all but a couple ended with me reeling in my bait, or an empty hook.

Is anyone willing to share a secret technique for getting hooks into these running fish? I tried circle hooks, kahle, and standard large wire hooks last year, and nothing really worked.

Is having numerous "runs" common without getting hooks set, or is there somebody out there who knows a method of landing more of these bruisers?

I'm also interested in people's thoughts on different line types for flatheads. I know channels aren't to particular about what line your using - they'll pick up most anything if their hungry. I wonder about flatheads though. Are their mouths more sensitive to braided lines or monofilament? Does vibration given off by braided lines in moving water attract or repel these fish? Would it be more beneficial to go with a 80-100 lb. monofilament, or a 40-50 lb. braid?

I'd really appreciate an old vet catman's input here. I wanna get my son into some big flatheads this summer, and he's not gonna be too impressed if Dad keeps missing every fish that picks up a bait!

[Dirk W]

I'll throw in my .02 worth. What kind of bait were you using when you had the runs? If it was cut bait or a smaller live bait it may very well not have been a flathead but a channel cat. Channels also will hit a 6-7 inch live bait no problem but when they do they can be tuffer to hook. If you were using a bullhead though they were probably flatheads. From my experience channels rarily take bullheads.

For flatheads near cover I'd use 40 lb mono minimum, 50 is better. Anything over 50 lb in mono gets tuffer to cast. For braids I'd go with 80-100 lb. It gets tuff to break though when your snagged. Wrap it around a dowel and try not to fly overboard when it breaks!!! Flatheads are usaully not the least bit line shy. I usually don't let the fish take much line before I engage the reel. Then I reel slowly until I feel the fish, then set.

I havent had the success with circle hooks and live bait like I have with circles/cut bait. Stick with a 8/0-10/0 standard hooks and hook your baits between the tail and the fin. Besides its way fun when you get to slam the hook into a big one!!

[CANOPY SAM]

Thanks Dirk,
I've been using mostly big creek chubs, suckers, and occasionally the medium (legal) sized bullhead.
You use a lighter lb test mono than the braid? Or did I read that wrong?
I too think that sometimes I've been having channels pick up my large live baits - even hooked one nice channel last summer on a really big sucker minnow!

[Toad]

'Nother thing you might wanna do is to run your hook parallel to the dorsal fin of the bait, rather than perpendicular to it. By hooking a baitfish with the hook pointing toward the head, the hookpoint will find flathead jaw flesh a lot more often. Done right, you ought to hook at least 3/4 of all flatheads.

Conversely, by dorsal fin hooking a bait with the hook pointing away from the bait at a 90-degree angle, a flathead will often "crunch" the entire package, causing you to set back into the bait, rather than into the flathead. That means missed fish and frustration.

Incidentally, kahle hooks like an Eagle Claw 141 or a Gamakatsu 514 are top options. Otherwise, it'd be hard to go wrong with a good old 5/0 to 8/0 Eagle Claw 84 or Mustad 92671. Finally, if you're having trouble with your typical sized hook, go 2 sizes bigger. Big flatheads don't care one iota about "too big," so long as your bait remains lively. Ok, second finally, as Dirk mentioned, don't let the fish take the bait very long. Set the hook as soon as possible. Else, again, the cat will reposition the hook back into the bait while swallowing it, which, again, means a missied fish every time.

And if they're simply hitting and running, but quickly dropping the bait, you might wanna consider reducing bait size. Or ponder whether the fish are really flatheads, but rather than channel cats, which is more likely the case.

Don't know about you, but I'm ready for that first hookset of the season!

-a friend called Toad

[Dirk W]

I used to use alot of 50 lb power pro but I thought it was too light. I had an occasional break off at the side of the boat. It broke easier than 40 lb big game I thought. And since its easier to work with and cast I bumped up to 80-100 lb. Its still only the diameter of about 17 lb mono. It works good for double duty on channels also.

Another thing about small daimeter super lines. Ive had them pop off the eye of the hook when a cat rolls. The knot doesnt break but simple pulls off the hook. I lost 2 fish that way last year. I dont know if others have had that problem?? I seal the eye of the hook now when I use braids.

Another thing about braids. No problems with the hook setting back into the bait with a firm hook set. It pops off the hook bait nicely. I guess each line has its advantages/disadvantages.

[korn_fish]

Couple thoughts come to mind when you say you are missing hook sets. There is one fish that has been left unmentioned yet. The gar!! These pesky things will run with your bait as well, but they dont swallow the bait right away and when you set the hook, it might be no where close to the mouth. The other unmentionable - mud turtles. These little creatures will munch on your live or cut bait and will hold the bait inbetween their feet as they swim off. Cought my share of them in the front feet.

I have found that each fish and creature takes the bait a little different and I can usually tell what I am dealing with after a few runs. But I agree with the posts before me that it may be a simple size thing.

Next time it happens and you real in and the bait is still there, check for marks on the fish. That could indicate the size of the fish and how they were holding it prior to the hook set. I dont think I have ever set the hook, missed the fish, and the bait was still there except for cut bait. But I have seen it where they dropped the bait and I could real it in to check.

with the typical rig, I use Kahle hooks. Size 7/0 or bigger. For straight lining, I use the Gamagatzu (spelling??) 10/0 circle.

Not to say that the missed hooksets are because of the type of fish hitting it, because I have taken a couple of people out that have done some catti'n in the past, but we make bets on who has the better hookup %'s. I am always beating him. The worst was him = 35% Me = 90%. I think he gets around 50% now. Getting better, but I still will make him refund me for bait he loses So experience may be something as well.

As far as line. I use/experiment with them all. I lean towards the braids just because of the line strength I can get with the smaller diameter and castability. I tend to use 60 lb and up. If you are breaking off with the braids, it may be the type of knot you are using. When I used the basic trilene knot with the braids, I found out that the knots actually cut into itself and cause the break. I think the break off percentage was aroune 40%. Try this next time. mark the line with a marker or string one foot above the knot. Then after a few break offs, you should see if it is breaking off at the knot.

The simple palomer knot decreased the number of knot breaks for me. And another thing that I have tried is combining the palomer with the trilene knot. You double the line before threading the hook like you do in the palomer. Then, once you put the doubled line through the hook, you wrap it like the trilene knot (only 2-3 times though) and then put the end of the double line through the opening between the hook-eye and the twists, then take the loop in the end of the line and put the hook through it like you do in the palomer knot. then cinch it up.

It is a little tricky to get it snugged up right, but it has been the best knot that I can use with the braids and super lines. Doing this also creates a thicker knot so you shouldn't have to worry about it working its way through any gap in the hook eye.

One more thing. I retie the line after every flathead or channel at night (usually dont do that when running and gunning for channels in the day). That is why I take extra poles. When I catch one. I take a spare rod and bait it and throw that out so I have time to re-tie the hook on the other. The mouths of the flat can wear away the braids.

Another thing is that maybe a bead inbetween the knot and your weight would help as well. You may have a perfect knot, but the weight could do some damage.

Anyone know what the name of the knot that I described above is, or did I create something new and get a patent

OK- I found the knot that I use it is http://home.cfl.rr.com/floridafishing/knot19.htm
The only difference is that I have an extra step between their steps 2 and 3. That is where I would pass the hook through the loop in the line.

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[This message has been edited by korn_fish (edited 03-03-2003).]

[CANOPY SAM]

Wow! Great information fellas! Keep it comin'.
One thing I'd like to point out is not to use a xylene based marker if your gonna mark monofilament. Xylene breaks down mono pretty quick.
That info on the hook placement could turn out to be very valuable. I never thought about it quite that way before, but it is an excellent point! Get it? POINT!!! Har Har Har.
Thanks folks - I'm really anxious to here more, and would welcome anyone out there just reading to throw in their ideas as well.

[dragon master]

Momo line 40lb big game from berkley. Braided 80lb line also from berkley. Have to try some of that Iron silk. I use big circle hooks 14/0 to 18/0. Big hooks big bait. Hook the bait up through the top lip. With circle hooks I let the fish run a bit then point the rod towards the fish and engage reel and hang on once the fish has hooked it's self I give a hard pull and start crankin

[DARK30]

Well, I've been thinking about what to say here and everybody has good points. All I can really add is...Spending time with your bait in the water will catch you more fish. Overall, it takes alot of hours to catch a fish over 30lbs. I only got 4 over 30 last year and one was by mistake...It hit a white Mister Twister on 6lb mono. That was a nice fight! I'm usually torn between Walleyes and Catfish.

My favorite hook for livebaiting Flatheads is called a "G-Mag Oversize Worm" hook made by Gamakatsu. I use braided dacron on one rod and Power Pro on another. I tie directly to the hook and I let the fish run most of the time. I don't know what my knot is...We'll just call it the "Holding" knot and no knot is any good without a good drag set correctly.

I do believe most of the Runs that are missed are because of smaller fish toying with your brain! But then again......That state record is in there!!!!

WET NETS!

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cast,cast,cast,cast......

[Dennis Steele]

I do think that a lot of misses or dropped baits are from channels.You can usually tell the other fish by the pecking that happens first.Its tough to tell sometimes when you are asleep on the bank though.
I hook my bait a little like Toad suggested.I put the hook through at an angle with the point going in near the tail and then out near the dorsal.If I am using a hook with an offset you have to make sure that the offset is up.Other wise the point of the hook ends turned toward the bait.Kahle style hooks are my favorite hooks but I ahve never been able to find them larger than 7/0.I have been looking at some hooks that Matzuo makes that I am going to try this season.They are thinner gauge wire with sharp bends that help prevent them from straightening outand chemically sharpened.I have had no luck with circle hooks what so ever with flatheads.
I do not know if flatheads are line shy but like using a thinner diameter line inany case.I give no thought to wheather the line is vibrating.I am usually not fishing for flats in current that will cause much line vibration anyway.I like the braided super lines.I tried that Tuff Stuff last year and however cheaper than Power Pro I still like Power Pro.I believe that the thinner the line the better action your bait is going to have.
This is a great discussion!Lots of good info here.

[Toad]

Hey Guys,

Been using those flat no-snag, no-roll sinkers for a few years now, but they're not easy to find, particularly in larger sizes. Any of you fellas use this sinker? Or know where to find 'em, say in 3 to 5 ounce sizes? Tell you what, if you're still using bell, egg or walking sinkers, you may wanna consider switching to these flat sinkers. Best thing going for set rigging in current-- especially when you wanna keep the bait from drifting into snags.

Also means each time you snag up, you won't have to worry about ripping apart the whole brushpile with your unbreakable 100-lb superbraid . Honestly, sometimes the strength of these lines scares a guy a little.

-a friend called Toad

[DARK30]

Thats another thing...Keeping your bait in the target area. I do need to stock up on some of those flat sinkers for fast current areas. I use big barrel sinkers most of the time and they will move easily with the current and the bait.

Does anybody mold their own weights? It would probably be in my best interest to look into it!

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cast,cast,cast,cast......

[Dirk W]

Toad, I dont think they make the sinker mold for the no-roll over three ounces. At least not that I've found. You'd have to get the blank mold and have a machine shop make it for you. Probably pretty pricey. They work well enough though that I may do it someday. Maybe if we complain enough to Do-It they'll make one eh?? When I need something over three ounces I use a bank sinker mold which works OK. The one that doesn't use a barrel swivel but has a solid lead eye. My mold has a 6 And 8 oz. cavity. They stay put fairly well.

[Dennis Steele]

I have not seen the No Roll over three ounces either.I have seen some large flat square sinkers that go pretty big.The hole goes through in the center at a 90 degrees .I think that may snag a little more than a no roll but the principle is the same.

[dragon master]

Dark did you forget about all that lead you gave me? You have about 20lbs of 3,4 and 5oz bank sinkers. I used the Bank sinker for the first time last year, it did ok in timber,rock and fast water. If I could afford it I would get the no-roll-sinker mold made in the 4 and 5oz.

[Toad]

Okay, made a phone call to the Do-It company in Iowa-- nice folks. You guys were right, by the way, about the No-Roll sinker-- molds are only available in sizes up to 3 oz. BUT . . . the nearly identical No-Snag sinker-- the ones I've got-- is indeed available in up to a 4 oz size.

A great alternative, though, if we're after heavier sinkers, is their River Sinker, which is available in 1 to 10 oz. sizes (just in case we're wanting to rig a 3lb carp ). The River Sinker is shaped like an aspirin and lies flat much like a No Snag.

So, after several years, looks like I'll be getting back into this precarious business of molding my own lead sinkers. Oh well, what's tinkering with one more toxic substance gonna hurt ?

-a friend called Toad

[CANOPY SAM]

Couple questions.

1# Why do you guys go with a heavier braid than mono? It seems to me you'd wanna go the other way.

2# Do gar inhabit the deep river holes? I've seen em' millin' around in shallow water, but I've never actually caught one sooo...

3# What's the difference between a bank sinker, a no snag, and a no roll? I suggested to Dennis last year that he try the bank sinker and he's been pretty successful with em'. I've always liked em' too - but there kinda tough to find.

4# Dark, if I can't go out and catch a 30+ lb. flat every time I fish then I'm gonna just take my ball and go home!!!

Good topic! Keep the tips comin'!

I had a cat pick up a big creek chub last year without me knowin' it. He took the bait up river around a point (It was really dark, Fishhead and I were not in the best shape, and I'm not really sure how it happened, OK?) and when I set the hook the line simply broke at the knot. I really wondered if the fishes mouth didn't wear down the line. Is there really a kind of sandpaper surface on the top and bottom of their mouths? Maybe a person should use a really light wire leader, huh?

[Dennis Steele]

I don't think I ever tied on a bank sinker last year.I ordered bulk no roll sinkers last winter and that is all I used last season.The no roll looks like a flat egg sinker.A bank sinker is somewhat tear drop shaped with a loop of lead making up the hole.I have not seen a "no snag" unless we are talking about Lindy's no snagg,but I assume we are not.

I have never caught a gar in a deep hole.But then I rarely fish in the "Hole" jsut near it.

The heaviest braid I use is 65lb.I am curious too about a heavier braid than mono.Although cats do have a sand paper mouth I have not had a problem with them abraiding through the line if I check it frequently.I used to use a tyable wire leader when first started cattin but have found it not neccessary and jsut more money to throw to the rocks and wood.

I can't think of one time that you and I were in "good" shape. But I do faintly remember that night.At that hole the cats will head upstream 90% of the time because we were fishing downstream of the hole.I can't remember for sure but didn't you have a little pig tail at the end of your line?I think your knot failed.

[Dirk W]

I use heavier braid because I can get away with doing it. 100 lb Power Pro casts and handles like 20 lb mono. Maybe not exactly but you get the idea. I'd use 100 lb mono if I could but its tuff to work with, you'd need a huge reel, casts poorly, etc.

A bank sinker has six sides and the eye of the sinker were the line goes through is solid lead. I think the ones that use a swivel for the eye are called "bass casting sinkers" but don't quote me. No- roll sinkers are shaped like a tear drop and are flat. There is a hole running through the entire sinker (like a egg sinker). You run your line directly through the sinker lenghtwise.

I'm not sure about the gar. Me and a buddy were "aqua-viewing" on pool four in December by the dam. We ran across a school of gar that had to be in the hundreds. They were in about 14 feet just lying there. It was pretty cool to see.

[bottom feeder]

I was fortunate to stumble on to this thread. With regards to Flatheads, this is some of the best hook, line, and sinker information that I have had the pleasure to hear. Thanks much to all the knowledgeable participants.

I do have a couple of questions on sinkers.

For those of you that do not mold your own sinkers, where does everyone purchase them? Especially the no roll or no snag style?

Do you know of any sources that I can tap into that would ship these type of sinkers to me?

Thanks for your help. (Thanks Canopy Sam for starting this thread).

[Toad]

Ok, here's my version -

#1 - I like braid because it's super abrasion resistant in cover. But the main reason to use braids like Berkley Whiplash is its small diameter (relative to mono), which cuts well through current. That means minimal drag on your rig, which keeps it from being carried downstream, and into snags. But if you really prefer mono, but don't wanna loose too much abrasion resistance, try Berkley's IronSilk. Great stuff-- super tough, and low stretch too.

#2 - Gar do often inhabit deep holes, particuarly in winter and other times when they're less active. Every gar I've taken in any river-- including the Minnesota and a few rivers in Florida-- has been from shallow water, especially near cover.

#3 - You guys have already explained some of this well. A bank sinker is basically shaped like a bell or bass casting sinker with a molded lead eye. The No Snag sinker is flat and shaped like a teardrop with the lead eye at the point or top of the sinker. Line runs through it at a perpendicular angle. Similarly, a No Roll sinker is shaped nearly identical to the No Snag, except the line runs straight through the sinker (parallel), like an egg sinker.

For my money, the no snag sinker is the way to go.

-a friend called Toad

[korn_fish]

Like most post before me, I lean to the superbraids because of the thinner diameter so I can hold more line on the spool than the same lb. test mono. It is basically no-stretch wich gives me instant hooksetting and more direct power to the hookset. Team that up with a Fast-heavy action rod and you have a better way to horse the big flat out of cover.

I use multiple test lines. If I am in open water, a softer rod and lower test, or mono will be used. When casting to snags, I use the stiffer rod and the 50# braids. When straight lining close to snags but not in them, I primarily use the same set up as the open water set up. If I am set up right in the snag, straight lining, thats when I use the stiffer rod and the biggest lb. test braid I have.

I have caught gar in shallow and deep water. You mostly see them in shallow water, but I have seen them in deep water as well. I think they are attracted to the light from the boat as the just seem to just swim back and forth. (I position my boat sideways in the current - so it provides a small current break for them as well)

I have yet to use the no-snag sinkers and have been using the bell sinkers and egg sinkers. But will be seeing if we can't get some ordered at Gander Mountain for me to try.

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[Dennis Steele]

I talked with one of our site sponsors(Scenic Tackle) about getting some "no roll" sinkers available here.We may have them available in a few weeks.

[DARK30]

I'm working on a steel river sinker that will do the trick too! I just know it will get along real good with my Flying Bobber!

Dragon, Of course I forgot! Thanks for the reminder

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cast,cast,cast,cast......

[CANOPY SAM]

Ok, now I'm getting a sense for what's what. Sorry Dennis, I thought we were talkin' about bank sinkers last year at the Mississippi gathering, and that was the first time you had used them. My deepest and most sincere apologies. I must have had the "bank sinker" and the "no snag" mixed up. I still like to use a 2-3 ounce lindy slip sinker. They seem to hold pretty well, they're easy to find, and fairly cheap.
The line weight thing is making more sense too. I think I'm going to stick with my 50 lb. power pro. It's pretty good to work with, but I'm still not to comfortable with these new knots.
I really thought that that fish had probably knawed through the edge of my line at the hook eye, or maybe it rubbed on a rock. Too my recollection there wasn't a pigtail, but it was a very dark and dangerous bank to fish from considering the extreme level of intoxication.
I'm definately going to try to fish more wood this summer. It sounds like you guys get a number of nice fish right in the wood. Do you look for flatheads in the same kinda snags as channels hang in? Don't you worry about having your bait drag you into the snags, or the fish once it's hooked?
And Dark, Good call on the steel sinker. I'm bettin' it's only a matter of time before they completely ban the use of lead.
Speaking of steel - what happened to the artist formerly known as fishhead? Your just like Marilyn Monroe now Dennis. You become famous and they make you change your name. Goodbye Norma Jean!