Lab won't pick up birds...

[setterguy]

I agree, force fetch evil? I don't even understand what that means. Is he some hippie obeideince trainer that trains with a clicker and a pocket full of liver treats? The guys asked if anyone has ideas as to how to get his dog to retrieve, and the only answer there is is to train it to retrieve. The only way to do that is to FF. JDM is right on, peoples expectations on how a dog should perform are totally different, and because of that so are training methods. To those that are saying give the dog a couple years, what if it doesn't ever figure it out? Then you are back at square one, but now you have a 4 year old dog that doesn't retrieve. Some dogs have it naturally, they have soft mouths, and just have a strong desire and instinct. I would say that even those dogs will try and test limits, and at one point or another DECIDE not to retrieve. Thats all FF does, is take the decision making process away from the dog. If done correctly it is a relativley painless process. It IS monotonous, time consuming and at times frustrating, but when its done, very rewarding. Good luck to everyone and their dogs this year.

[ReelTimes]

I have had a number of labs over the years and now english cocker and springers but have always force fetched all my dogs. Having said that, you're right into hunting season and may not want to do it now. Depending how you do the training, it can take a couple of weeks to be thoroughly force trained, so you might want to wait until season is over. Also, if this is your first time, I would suggest working with someone who has done this before. For now, if he likes retrieving dummies, you might switch to wings. The other thing is to try a smaller bird, like a pigeon or quail. SOmetimes it is easier to gradually increase the size. Of course, once you force fetch (if you do), it won't matter.

[Ufatz]

Setterguy, I don't want to get into a big debate over this, but your statement that the only way to train a dog to fetch or retrieve is by F.Fetch is simpy incorrect. It may be YOUR way and it may be effective with some dogs but it is NOT the only way. I have never used it and have never had a well bred

Lab that would not pick up a bird with proper introduction and encouragement. You do it your way and I'll do it my way. Okay?

[Blaze]

Blackjack - I never said it's unethical to hunt with a non-ff'd dog. I hunted without any dog for years. I lost downed birds over those years too. That's why I got a dog in the first place. My first 2 dogs were not FF'd and they helped me find birds that I never would've gotten without them, but we still lost birds when they decided they didn't want to go get it. I want to ensure that I collect any game that I wound, period. Maybe it's not a big deal for others to lose a few birds a year, but it ruins my day to lose a single bird. That's just me.

verq - sorry you disagree with my statement, but I still stand by it. My dog and I have a much clearer understanding of how we work as a team as a result of FF training, and I know it helped him bond with me more. Not everybody has that experience, but if done right, I know it works.

The original post described a problem about a dog that sniffed ducks and wouldn't retrieve them. FF is the fastest, simplest, and most effective way I have ever seen to ensure a dog will retrieve whatever you send them to get. Until I find a method that works better, I will continue to use FF and recommend it to others.

It seems the major issue with FF is the idea of "hurting" your dog. Does FF involve pain? Yes - minimal amounts applied at the proper time (I use ear pinch method) and released immediately when the dog performs what is asked of him. Heck, my parents used the same principles (including ear pinch!) to teach me there were consequences to my disobedience. Is the dog scarred, bleeding, or physically abused? Absolutely not. The whole process for me took about 2 weeks +/-, working 10 minutes a night in my yard. Maybe my dog was an easy student - I don't know.

The amazing thing to me is that many guys I've met who refuse to FF their dogs will fry them with an ecollar and/or hit them and kick them without thinking twice. But FF is "cruel"...yeah, whatever.

[verg]

Blaze- you do make good points. As i said, i don't totally disagree with FF but yet, having trained 5 labs now, i have never done it and all dogs are stellar retrievers. So, what i'm trying to say is dogs can and will retrieve without it..maybe it could be used as a last ditch?? I'm working one right now that i may have to- but am hoping my other training and pure experience will pay off-if not, we'll see.

JDM-i don't remember saying that the trainer didn't force fetch. He said it can be evil to the tender hearted dogs but is sometimes a necessary evil. Didn't say he didn't do it.

[BLACKJACK]

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but we still lost birds when they decided they didn't want to go get it.

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I guess that whole concept is foreign to me, my labs have always been eager retrievers, whether its been dummies, birds, whatever. Not going to get the bird isn't even considered. When I bring out the shotgun, they go nuts. But I've thrown thousands of dummies for them, as puppies, in grass and water, introduced them to wings and birds, introduced them to gunfire, taken lots of walks to get them used to quartering, etc. You get out of a dog what you put into it. You have too many guys that don't even bother to work with their dogs 10 minutes a day, then they decide to use the FF or E-collar as the cure all.

Its a fact that different guys have different standards on their dogs. The pros would call my dogs 'meat dogs' but they do the job in hunting up pheasants in range and finding the birds I shoot AND RETRIEVING the birds I shoot. I don't need a dog that will follow a line straight out 100 yards, do two circles, then take a 90 degree left at the muskrat mound, then go another 75 yards to get the bird. Most of my duck hunting is done on small water where we can both go look for the duck if it sails off and during pheasant hunting, 95% of the time they bring it right back, and on that other 5% you just get them into the area and they'll find it. All I know is that I could fill freezers with the ducks and pheasants that my meat dogs have retrieved TO HAND for me over the years.

Different strokes for different strokes.

[verg]

Amen blackjack! while some guys are lining their dog up and giving them a command "Back!", my dogs are half way back with the bird already.

to each their own

[JDM]

I read a quote from a famous retriever trainer:

"Never brag about a dog unless he is 10,000 miles away or dead."

I think it is great that you guys are enthused about your dogs, no matter how they were trained, because that is what it is all about. If whatever you are doing works for you and you are happy with the results, then you shouldn't care what other people think. However, I will tell you that I was once like that, went out and learned some more advanced methods, and have never looked back. When your dog's reputation gets you invited to hunt with new groups and areas, something is working. I also have helped a lot of people with dogs that they thought were good, but then, with a little guidance, became great.

Alluding to the original question on this thread - my trained dog does make mistakes (they all do), has lapses in obediance, and isn't always steady while hunting, but I can tell you that my force fetched dog ALWAYS picks up the bird and delivers it to hand, including tough to find or crippled birds that are located when I cannot see him.

[SportFishin']

I'm going to pipe in again because the original poster RAJ was asking for methods of training to get his dog to retrieve & having problems with his pup picking up birds. So we suggested that he look at the FF method. Remember this is just advice given!

Verg,

Retrieving & FF has nothing to do with good blood lines that is the one of the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Any dog will retrieve if trained to retrieve. My Griffon comes from Versatile Champions on both sides of his blood lines & is well on his way to getting VC himself and that is not going to happen without FF. He will pick up birds & retrieve them just fine, but whether in a test or a hunting situation I would like to have the insurance that my pup will perform a command when asked to and not return until he has fulfilled that command.(Just my standard I guess) Now my dog was a soft dog when I started FF & we are still working on FF, but FF has made him a more bolder dog & that softness is starting to fade out and he is a hunting machine now & will not hesitate to aquire the game & retrieve it to hand.

My dog has over 360hrs of training in this summer so FF was not a cop out because I have been sitting on the couch all summer. I'm very active with my dogs all summer so they are in tip top condition for the hunting season. I also have a choc. lab that has not been FF & she is nine so I know with Labs they are born retrievers but she does have her moments where she won't cross a drainage ditch to retrieve & now that I know of FF I some times think that maybe FF, Force Back, & so on would have been good for her.

FF is not cruel as stated by Blaze if done properly I have had to use little presure (Ear Pinch) so far with him. He is at the point that he phsycologically knows that if he doesn't perform there will be minimal correction. One thing I do disagree with is doing FF with the Toe Pinch this method does not allow you to make a correction with proper timing IMO.

So RAJ look into FF & make your own decision on what to do. With your lab maybe it just needs some more time in the field & things will all come together for you, but if not FF is an option to consider & you can't go wrong with your decision it's your pup.

Enjoy the Seasons Boys!

I'm off to Hunt,

Chris

[BLACKJACK]

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Enjoy the Seasons Boys!

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I'll second that!!!! The best 45 days of the year are coming up!!!!!

[verg]

oh hell, i'll jump in one more time.

Sportfishing you also make good points. I was looking on the net at FF and found the same comments about lines and evil as my trainer friend said. So, either he quoted that or many feel the same. Anyway, this is more a question. It maybe could be true that dogs with poorer lines need FF. Think about buying a pup from great lines etc. Odds are it may not need it. Then think of buying a pup from some farmer who has BL pups for sale for $50. I would bet odds are that dog would need more strict training. I don't want to offend anyone's dog..just inquiring.

By the way Sportfishing, i disagree about any dog retrieving. IMO, yes you can make a collie retrieve a ball over and over in the yard but will it consistantly retrieve a duck or pheasant in heavy cover--i'm guessing not. But like you guys say-if it was FF, maybe it would.

[Blaze]

One thing we all need to keep in mind, regardless of what kind of dog you have, is that it's still a DOG. They are not robots that will mechanically perform the same task over and over. Even FF'd dogs will have great days and have off days! (mine included)

As for bloodlines and retrieving skills: there will be dogs from a $50 litter that will retrieve better than a $1500 pup, and vice versa. Each dog has it's own personality. I would tend to generalize at the breed level rather than the specific bloodlines - example: a Chessie will inherently retrieve more reliably than a Jack Russel simply because of the breed. I know, I know...there's always exceptions. Hah! I won't start splitting hairs between hunting breeds, however.

[bergie]

Heres something you might want to try that was a quick fix for me many years ago. Find somebody who has a dog that will retrieve every time, throw the dummy and when the other dog brings it back praise that dog for all your worth ignoring your dog, no guarentees but it worked for me.

[RAJ]

What I did was a little force fetching and i also tried to get him excited also. He didn't like the FF but after 3-4 times he held the dummy with the wing on it. And after a few times throwing the dummy, he also brought that back. Next duck I shot I'm going to keep and see if he'll get the bird. But right now he loves the wing...

[JDM]

For now, just teach the hold. That sets up the FF. Put it in his mouth and if he drops it, tell him NO and put it back in his mouth. When he is holding it, praise him. The FF comes into in later when you actually make him pick up the object from the ground on command and hold it. You can't just do a "little force fetching." It has to be all or none.

It sounds like you are making progress with him though. Getting them excited is half of the battle. Most of them want to please you, so once they figure out what you want, then most of them try to do it. Take the time to teach him what you want, then once he knows it, ingrain it into him with training. When the training is in him, then set him up to test him. That is how they learn.

[Tripleplay]

I thought I'd share a quick story regarding my recently deceased shorthair's daddy to get everybody back to the middle ground on force fetching. This dog was running for a Versatile Championship at 2 years of age---everything came easy to this boy and he retrieved like a maniac. Now he was owned by a professional handler and trainer and he definitely got daily work and experience.

Comes time for the final tuneup before the Invitational and this dog decides it doesn't have to retrieve anything he doesn't want to! Now we've got a wild-eyed professional trainer busy trying to kick himself in the "rear" for not force fetching his own dog because there was no reason to as the dog was a machine. I experienced first-hand a couple of "come to !@#$%" meetings between handler and dog before that dog decided he better do what the boss said. He ended up earning his VC title, but it was not without a bunch of tough sessions in the weeks ahead of the testing.

What I can tell you is that my new 7 month old lab probably wasn't going to be force fetched unless the trainer thought it best. Picked her up this past Wednesday and I've been told that she needs to be FF'd since she is so rough and tough on the birds. She basically wrings them out until they are way dead and ripped up. That won't cut it and I know going into this weekend that I'm going to have to be quick to separate her from any birds she retrieves. Maybe it will all come together and she will stop mistreating the birds but once again just another reason to implement the force fetch. She is young so who knows.

This is one of those topics where the "line in the sand" is pretty straight forward between the parties. Personally I've stood on both sides of it and I really think it comes down to owner and dog to decide what they want in the end.