spawning

[nitefisher]

what is the servival rate of baby flats and channels? it seems to me that the channels are lot more abundant than the flatheads. is there a fish that eats the flats and not the channels. just wondering because you would think that a 30lb to 50lb flat would lay at least a couple 1,000,000 eggs. were are they.?

[MachineHead]

Top of the line predators are always the least numerous.

Examples:

Muskies

Tigers

Lions

Wolves

Big*** Flatheads

EDIT:

One exception to that rule is the greatest predator of all. Us.

[nitefisher]

i know walleyes and bass love the heck out of baby bullheads, could that be another reason in decline of the flatheads other than people.?

[MachineHead]

Perhaps. But I don't think flatheads have reached the endangered species list just quite yet. There are plenty of flatheads out there. The big ones are just never as abundant as we would like to believe they are.

[katchaser]

As previously stated:

Population dynamics teach us that predators are the top of population dynamic pyramids. It takes a lot of plankton to support the minnows that support the panfish that support the predators such as flathead.

Once flathead fry disperse from the male flathead they are completely helpless as far as having a defense and are consumed by a host of predators. Bluegills and rock bass eat most of them before they become to large for them.

Then largemouth bass, stripers, channel cats, and other flathead continue to prey on them. By the time disease and parasites and otters and herons and osprey take their share, very few flathead survive to reach maturity.

After they reach 15-20 pounds flathead mortality is caused mostly by other flathead and man. Fighting, either for territory or mates cause severe injury to male flathead but rarely result in death. Males may mate several times in one season and lose so much weight that they fall waste to disease, larger males, or are simply unable to gain enough fat to survive the next winter.

Mature flathead are killed by fishermen either intentionally or unintentionally. Pollution or loss of habitat through flood control also kills mature flathead.

A few die of accidents such as encountering boat props.

Channel cats are lower in the population pyramid than flathead. They are not confined to being predators and can adapt to many sources for food. Their total food intake does not have to be so great to support their smaller size.

They are also more adaptable and need less specific habitat than flathead and can therefore populate more areas of a waterway.

Channel cats mature sexually much younger than flathead and can reproduce more effectively because of this. A 9 inch channel cat has formidable spines for protection and a 9 inch flathead has only cartilage in its dorsal and pectoral fins.

As a smaller impact--Many state fisheries control channel cat fisheries and stock channel cats in their waterways.

Only Texas and Missouri stock flathead catfish and the effects of these stockings is not clear on total fish populations.

[MachineHead]

Bravo, katchaser.

Simple and to the point.

EDIT: I hope that didn't sound facetious. I really meant that it was a great explanation.

[hanson]

Quote:

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Perhaps. But I don't think flatheads have reached the endangered species list just quite yet. There are plenty of flatheads out there.

---

Right you are. I, on the other hand, do not want to contribute to them becoming an endangered species. I love fishing for these critters and I have become addicted to it. Thankfully, I learned or was taught early on that releasing these fish was the best thing to do. To this day, I have not kept a flathead. I'm not jumping on my soapbox and preaching this as bible. However, I just want others to know what may result because of some of their actions. That being mishandling of these fish or keeping them for the fryer.

However a very interesting, and sad, thing that has been brought to my attention is the number of channel cats that have been found floating on the Red River of the North within the last week. Concensus from a few Red River rats up there is the high water temps, low water levels, and fish coming off the spawn are producing the mortality that is being witnessed. Which just goes to show you that nature will run its course no matter what we, humans and fisherpeople, do. Now I'm not sure how extensive this mortality is. The reports I've heard have been coming from the Grand Forks area and other areas of the river may or may not have been affected.

[nitefisher]

thanks guys for helping me to understand this better. and lets just hope that the red river cat thing is just a isolated thing.

[MachineHead]

Quote:

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I, on the other hand, do not want to contribute to them becoming an endangered species.

---

Nor do I. I have yet to keep* a cat in the past 5 or 6 years of chasing them. I just love the battle. And have enjoyed that for the past 20 years or so of aggressively going after them.

*Unless knowing that the hooked fished was bleeding in such a way that release was just a delayed death. I'm not much for keeping fish, but I'm less so for shucking responsibility of being humane.

EDIT: And if you think that releasing that gut hooked JR. was a gift, you are very wrong. It just floats down to someone elses neighborhood. Out of sight, out of mind. No more justice to a great fish than a real C & R.

[MachineHead]

Did I touch a nerve here? The NIMBY factor I sense on this board at times makes me wonder. You guys that fish more than once a week should pipe up and admit one way or the other whether this is something you would do.

It doesn't admit guilt. It admits being responsible for a dwindling resource. And being adult enough to know that you are really hunting a large predator with consequences that are sometimes not always going to go the way you want.

EDIT:

And it is less offensive (I guess) than a bra in a tree on the mighty MN. river....

[fiskyknut]

NIMBY factor? Whats that eh. Machinehead I do like your post on that 'big question' thread, you seem levelheaded and in the know, and you don't let emotion drive your rational to the point of looking like a hypocrite. I've been rehearsing a post for that one and the 'Catfish derby' post for a bit now, I gots to dance rather dainty at times so it takes me awhile. I wish you would have been around to add to the 'fishing concern' thread we had going on the Red river forum last fall. We could use more like you around here when it comes to some subjects.

Saw you mention PM's, feel free to e me anytime.......

fiskyknut at yahoo.com

Best regards, fiskyknut

[MachineHead]

NIMBY= Not In My Back Yard

At times, the pot needs to be stirred. Regardless of the outcome.

And really my intentions are not that, but to chide those with set opinions to re-think from a different angle. It hurts, and my intended audience will probably not answer unless provoked accordingly.

Basically, I want level-headed retorts. No flaming, but honest opinions with real life backing behind claims. FUD is rampant everywhere. We can do without that even in a fishing forum.

[hanson]

Quote:

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NIMBY factor? Whats that eh.

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NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard

Not quite sure about how that applies to catfishing yet, but I'm still thinking about it.

In my real world line of architectural work, I'm very familiar with the term NIMBY.

[mplspug]

Flatheads are also cannibals from birth. I have read a little about conservation efforts try to rear and stock the young. They learned early on they had to separate individuals that had grown slightly larger than it's siblings. What’s the main predator of a 5-10lb flathead? Its 30-40 lb uncle.

[Willy]

We all know that you have to handle these fish the way they should be and that some people do keep them, but how many flathead fisherman do you think actually keep fish?

I would guess about 99% of people let them go. I guess I have rarely talked to or seen anyone keep one. Channels yes, flatheads, haven't seen it too often.

If people are complaining about not being able to catch big fish like years ago or whatever, I think it has to do with the pressure put on the fish in the last few years compared to what it has been.

I know on the MN river where I fish, there was rarely more than one or two other trailers at the landings when we'd go, but now it's not uncommon to see 6-10 trailers a night.

[rushing]

Quote:

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Did I touch a nerve here? The NIMBY factor I sense on this board at times makes me wonder. You guys that fish more than once a week should pipe up and admit one way or the other whether this is something you would do.

It doesn't admit guilt. It admits being responsible for a dwindling resource. And being adult enough to know that you are really hunting a large predator with consequences that are sometimes not always going to go the way you want.

---

I've been lucky enough to only have gut hooked one small flat a few years ago. I felt bad enough about it to switch to circle hooks and havent had the problem since.

[mplspug]

I think that the flatheads haven't effected at all by fishing pressure because I agree, 99% of flathead fishermen put them back. In fact, from what I hear, they have extended their range and I don't think we have seen a change in numbers or size. I think river ecosystems stand up to fishing pressure much better than lakes. To that end, I think channels have not been affected much by fishing pressure or people keeping big fish.

[nitefisher]

man i really didn't mean to pinch the nerve this way over a simple question. but i guess this is one way to find out how one person feels about things compared to another. sorry guys for getting this going this way.

[mplspug]

I don't think you need to apologize. These are things that need to be discussed. Plus, it wasn't your fault the conversation strayed a little from your original question.

[so haaad]

Hanson, I'm a city planner. Maybe you and I have a different interpretation of NIMBY.

[Dennis Steele]

I personaly don't think there is anything to worry about.

Actually, I bet there are more flatheads swiming in the rivers today. I know there are more in the MN River than there was 10 years ago.

I do agree however that they are smaller than 10 years ago. I believe this is cyclic however. A few years ago we may have had a couple years of successful spawns which has flooded the rivers with smaller fish. Most flats live up to the ripe old age of around 19, so the big fish days are right around the corner.

As for keeping fish? I practice and preach catch and release, however I don't push the issue. Being pushy doesn't get you very far, and its very hard to change the attitudes of those who have been keeping these fish for decades or have grown up in families that do keep pretty much everything. Luckily for us and the flatheads those days will soon be gone.