Camera advice

[Alex Walleye Fan]

I am looking into puchasing a camera.

1. I currently have a decent digital and I am not impressed with the results.(may be user error) Before that I had a 35mm Pentax which I bought back in the mid 80's which took great pics.

2. I am open to getting back into film. Is there a film/digital combo? If so, are they worth it?

3. I would like a high end camera but I also want to try and stay away from all the bells and whistles. I am not a pro, I just want something I can point and shoot with relative ease/user friendly.

4. I would like a camera that can take additional lenses.

5. Where is the best place to purchase?

Thanks for any advice.

[Dbl]

The search feature can be your friend. Here are a couple of links to recent posts on this topic.

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=790578&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=774963&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=769644&page=4&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=738730&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=761453&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=734001&page=7&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=661584&page=8&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

These are from the last few months. If you have any questions after all that reading, feel free to ask away, there a lot of helpful folks who should be able answer.

[Tom Wilson]

AWF,

If you're still open to film, and are looking for high end, then I might have something you'd be interested. It rhymes with Nikon F5. I have an F5 I bought 6 months prior to buying a D70. Since I bought it I have put less than 25 rolls of film through it. It is like brand new, and it is the most advanced film camera that was ever made. PM me at tom @ imagesofcreation. net

[Swimmer]

Dbl: well, I'm leaning towards waiting for the Pentax K10 (or whatever it will be called). It seems like every time I go the less expensive route (or less quality in some circumstances), I get the feeling that a mistake was made. In this situation (if I bought the Pentax DL, or even the approaching anti-shake models), I know that an upgrade in the near future would happen...I at least WANT to have the option of very large prints (10 mp). I like your ideas of a backup body (a mistress?), but $600 for the DL/kit-lense is a fairly significant consumer expenditure that is hard to justify given a pending purchase of the K10 (~ $900 for body?). I sure would like to get out there now though and practice, practice, practice. Where did you hear about the "K10"...and are my cost projections in the ball-park?

[Dbl]

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Dbl: well, I'm leaning towards waiting for the Pentax K10 (or whatever it will be called). It seems like every time I go the less expensive route (or less quality in some circumstances), I get the feeling that a mistake was made. In this situation (if I bought the Pentax DL, or even the approaching anti-shake models), I know that an upgrade in the near future would happen...I at least WANT to have the option of very large prints (10 mp). I like your ideas of a backup body (a mistress?), but $600 for the DL/kit-lense is a fairly significant consumer expenditure that is hard to justify given a pending purchase of the K10 (~ $900 for body?). I sure would like to get out there now though and practice, practice, practice. Where did you hear about the "K10"...and are my cost projections in the ball-park?

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Swimmer, the forum link I sent you has most of the current info on the "K10". I have heard that it will be priced somewhere around the 30D and the D200 which would put it in the $1400 - $1900 range. There really have not been any pre-release specs on the camera yet, fps, sensor type, buffer speeds, etc.

Because of a growing interest in sports photography and a lack of midrange, fast high quality glass along with a possible business opportunity and a deal that was hard to pass up, I sold all of my Pentax equipment last week and switched to Canon. This was not a decision that was reached lightly or on a whim. I have been shooting Pentax for almost 30 years and letting go was a tough choice. I could not be more thrilled with the new products that are coming out, the timing just happens to be about 1 year off for me.

I can't tell you what you should do, but I think you summed it up when you said you want to "practice, practice, practice". There are any number of high quality cameras that are available right now, ALL brands included. You need to balance what you are looking for in your camera with what your future photography needs will be. That can be hard if you don't get out and start shooting.

I found a new direction for my shooting and was forced to make a change because my current set up did not fit those requirements. Buzz, as you recall went through the same process this spring, needs change and evolve it is much easier and more cost effective if you do that within the same brand.

You still have my e-mail if you want further info.

Dan

[Swimmer]

Dbl and others: I made the plunge. Coincidently, don't think I'm "stalking" you Dbl, prior to reading your post, I couldn't wait and decided on the Canon 30D w/ Tamron SP AF 28-75/2.8 XR Di LD lense.

I will describe my research and buying experience hoping it might be useful to others on the prowl. As some of you know, I was impressed with various aspects of the Pentax DL, the fantastic viewfinder, ergonomic qualities, price, ect., and was waiting until the new models came out. However, I had the itch to buy now and the Canon just fit the bill. I wanted to buy an all purpose lense that seemed to be high quality and of course a value. My research, and the reviews led me to the Tamron (there are excellent reviews for most lenses on-line). A future lense purchase will be a 300+mm.

As for price. Online search led me to bestpricecamera (Contact Us Please) that indicated the lowest price...$1059 for camera body and basic "kit" (1 GB card, case, lense cleaning supplies and some other minor stuff). I have a larger soft case and my computer has built in card readers, so I figured a more major "kit" was not needed.

The outfit charged me $60 for UPS Ground shipping...a little steep thought I. So it still seemed like a very good bargain at $1418. I phoned the company to confirm the order and make sure the lense was fitted for Canon. I knew the sales pitch was coming. The 5 hour battery and charger was another $190, I bought a three filter kit for $109 (indoor, UV, and ?), and declined other offers. Except I did decide on a three year replacement warrantee when he reduced the price from $120 to $60. I thought the guy's math was funny but he explained that they stuck on a goofy 6% handling and insurance charge. So, grand total was: Canon 30D w/ 1MB card and "kit" $1057

Tamron SP AF 28-75/2.8 XR Di LD $279

5 Hour Battery/Charger $190

3 filter kit $109

shipping $60

goofy 6% handling/insurance fee $105.42

3 year replacement insurance $60

Grand Total= $1862.42

Prior to "closing" the deal, I looked at National Camera's site, canoga camera, and another "low budget" net site to compare. It turned out that even with the goofy fee (that I think most bargain net sites have a version of), this still was a good deal just not as great as it originaly may have looked. My experience shows that it may be advantageous to some to go the National or Ritz or ? and cultivate a relationship with a knowledgeable sales person that may be able to help you in the future. In other words this "help" may be worth a couple hundred denaros to somebody.

I am itching for the unit to arrive, though I know the learning curve will be steep. Hopefuly this setup will allow me to take some quality photos. Though in my opinion the quality standards of most of photos on this site would be hard to approach. Any software advice?

[Tom Wilson]

Swimmer--I don't know how to say it, but you got taken for close to $300.00 You could have gotten that same deal for under $1,650 from a very reputable company. I wish I could have told you first.

[Dbl]

Let the fun begin! As you found out it is buyer beware out there with camera purchases. You asked questions which is VERY important in web sales with photo gear. I purchased from National because of past business and they had what I wanted in a used lens and demo camera body.

As far as software a couple of choices. If you want free, download Picasa from google. An excellent all around powerful program for around $50 to $80, go with Photoshop Elements 4.0. If you want the top of the heap, around $600 go with Photoshop CS2.

Elements will many of the things CS2 will do, especially if you look around for plug-ins. Another piece of software I would not be without is Noise Ninja, download from the net for around $40. This is a noise reduction program which will come in very handy with digital noise, another aspect of the switch to digital.

Good luck with your purchase and start snapping away!

[Swimmer]

Quote:

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Swimmer--I don't know how to say it, but you got taken for close to $300.00 You could have gotten that same deal for under $1,650 from a very reputable company. I wish I could have told you first.

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You may be right Tom. However, with all the stuff, including warrantee and the lense I wanted, my research of other sources indicated that this was still a better deal than others presented. With a kit lense, and without the 5 hour battery (3 hour is kit), then I could have gotten the package for the price you mentioned. Either way, I think I will be happy with the set-up.

[buzzsaw]

Canon? Oh lordy Swimmer, what are you thinking? Just kidding, I'm a Nikon shooter and just messing with ya! You will be happy with your set up.... if your taking wildlife/bird pictures I would bet you'll be upgrading to a more powerful lens in the very near future.

[floating minnow]

Great choice Swimmer.I live 5 minutes away from the Golden Valley National Camera but I only give them my business if I cannot find what I want somewhere else.I normally shop online but Best Buy now carrys high end cameras so I was able to use reward points plus recieve more points plus get 18 month free financing.You'll love this camera.

DBL,

How does the Canon software that came with the 30D compare

with the inexpensive one to mentioned to Swimmer? I'm shooting in the highest quality jpeg now and have not found little need to do post exposure work yet other than a little cropping.Have you used the Canon software on any raw images?

[Tom Wilson]

Swimmer.

I didn't mean that like it sounded. I am very, very aware of the scams that are out there. My response was actually towards the fact that you paid extra for all that stuff that actually comes with the camera, when you didn't have to. Had you bought that from a company like B&H you would have only paid $1349 for the camera and $229 for the lens. They don't charge tax, and they are the most reputable internet company out there. I have been purchasing my equipment from them for over ten years. Their package includes the battery, charger, case, strap etc., that you had to pay extra for. I am not faulting you for your decision, but I truly believe that you were taken advantage of, and I hope you got a USA camera and not a grey market, or a refurbished. I do sincerely hope that you enjoy your camera--the 30D is a really nice camera. I can't wait to see some photos.

[buzzsaw]

One other thought... Did you give the Canon 5D any consideration? I think it is canon's absolute best bang for the buck and it would have been near the price range you came in at, well more money but not too much more. Anyways, you'll be very happy with your choice, it's alot like the Nikon D50 I had a short while back and I liked it!

[floating minnow]

Tom,

Maybe you or Steve should write something up about the in's and outs of online shopping for photo equipment.I first used Cameraworld until Ritz bought them, then I switched to B+H so I know it's not as simple as finding the best price.With so many people now willing to spend some good money for equipment some advice from a regular user would be helpful.

Buzz,

I think I smell a little Nikon arrogance going on here. First off the 5D sells for double the price price of the 30D so even though Swimmer may have paid maybe just a little more then he had to the 5D would have cost him another big chunk of change.

As to comparing the 30D to the your D50 I just have to let Swimmer know you really were just pulling his leg. .If you knew me you would know I do not spend a dollar without knowing what I'm paying for so you can bet I did way too much research before I bought my 30D.I may have read 20 or more reviews and not one mentioned the D50 in the same breath as the 30D.In fact when reviews did compare cameras it was always the D200 and I must say it stood toe to toe in most if not all the comparisons.

[Dbl]

Quote:

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DBL,

How does the Canon software that came with the 30D compare

with the inexpensive one to mentioned to Swimmer? I'm shooting in the highest quality jpeg now and have not found little need to do post exposure work yet other than a little cropping.Have you used the Canon software on any raw images?

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I honestly have not gotten around to installing it. I use PE4 and CS2 and they work fine for RAW. Raw Shooter or Silkypix even Picasa have converters for free. I had heard that PE4 did not have a 30D profile, but I believe that has been updated. I just shot around 500 shots up on the North Shore and shot mostly JPEG just to make conversion and PP easier. I think out of those images I did PP on 490. Many were nothing but some sharpening, some I spent considerable time correcting my mistakes. Don't get me wrong the 20D/30D has beautiful out of camera jpegs, I just tend to be fussy and want a certain look that I don't always get "out of camera". You obviously understand your camera and its capabilities if you are not spending much time post processing, that is what we all aspire to do. Steve has been shooting the 20D for quite some time and I am sure he can give you his recommendations and experiences with the Canon software.

[buzzsaw]

Flaoting Minnow, No arrogance here bud, I had a heck of a time choosing Canon or Nikon in the beginning and feel that both are absolutely fantastic camera producers! With that being said, I do have to comment on your 30D vs D200 comparison. The D200 has a better build overall (body seam sealing, for starters), and after holding it only one time, I can say that it has similar ergonomics as the D50 and D70s, which I think are very good for my hand size. In terms of photo quality, the Canon is going to give you better results at high ISO due to lower noise in images directly out of the camera, although the noise issue is blown a little out of proportion since some people actually do image editing after they shoot, this narrows the small difference even greater. Also, people in the past had it much worse in terms of noise and still produced great photos.

However, if you want to shoot something where things are moving quickly, like action photography, Canon may be better because you can set the Canon at a high ISO and still get the same noise levels as a Nikon D200 at ISO 800 or something, which would then allow you to use a quicker shutter speed.

But again, I think the ergonomics of Nikons are superior and so I can be quicker overall using a Nikon, which is very important. Image quality is great from either camera. Just choose the one you like and be happy.

Always an interesting subject huh guys?

P.S. Steve, I'm looking at your dual Loon picture next to my computer, it is sweeeeeeeeeet!

[floating minnow]

Buzz,

They are both great cameras and if I did'nt already have my Canon lenses the D200 would maybe have been my choice.You and Tom do some very nice work with them.

I hope you did'nt take my arrogance remark seriously,just giving you back some of your own.

[buzzsaw]

That's cool, we all have fun here... you know Tom has the D2X right, I have the lowly D200. Hobbydog also shoots with Nikon. I think it's fairly close regarding how many use high end DSLR's on this site.

[Steve Foss]

Wow, you turn your back on a thread for a couple days and all Canon breaks loose.

Seriously, there are too many points to address from all these recent posts. It would take a book. One point sticks out. While the 5D has a full-frame sensor (important for some wide-angle lens shooters) and more megapixels (perhaps important for huge print enlargements), the 5D only allows a max of 3 fps. While macro and studio work aren't very demanding when it comes to fps, 3 fps is not enough for serious wildlife shooting, especially the fast-moving birds, and it's not near enough for sport shooting. The 30D's 5 fps max is a big bump in that category.

And the 8.2 megapixel sensor on the 20D/30D has allowed me to make sharp and subtle 20x30 prints without working very hard, and with Genuine Fractals you can make a phenomenal print 800 percent (that's not a typo) larger than the original image.

So, in one sense, megapixel obsession is overkill. Some glossy mag editors insist on digital images for double-page phtos be taken from cameras of at least 12 Mp, but they are simply behind the curve or don't really want to attract new shooters.

Anyway, have at it, but have at it with civility.

[Steve Foss]

Sorry, I meant to reply to the software issue, but forgot to do that before I sent.

I have't used the Canon software since I bought a card reader two years ago. Only reason I used the Canon sw at all was when I had to use the USB cord to download into the Canon browser.

Here's my routine now. I shoot in RAW+small jpeg. When I get home, I download everything into a folder with that day's date on it. Then I go through all the images. Each image has the RAW and jpeg paired with the same number but a .CR2 or .jpg extention. I view the images by simply double-clicking on the small jpegs, which is why I shoot that way. A small jpeg pops up in an instant when you click it, so this moves along quite rapidly. If the image is not sharp enough or is OOF or has some other issue that disqualifies it, I simply drag the pair into the trash. If it's a keeper, I name each of the pair, so it may be something like wolflooksatsun.CR2.

When I've gone through all of them, I then establish a folder for each species of animal/plant/etc shot that day and drag the appropriate images into each of those folders. Those folders may be titled, for example, 6-16-06 Burntside loons or 6-16-06 Agassa ladyslippers.

So far, I've opened no processing software to do this work, just whichever jpeg viewer pops up when I click on the image.

Then I burn everything onto CDs, one set for my home office backup, one to be stored elsewhere in case of fire, and then I drag all the folders of the day onto my 280Gb supplemental drive.

When I pull up an image and process it in Photshop, I save it to that folder and then another copy to whichever other folder I'll need to pull it out of later to print it, sell it electronically, post it online or process it for the paper. So I save one copy to "For printing," (for 300 dpi printing or publication), another one in "180 dpi" (for newsprint publication) and another low-res copy for online posting on FM, another forum, or in an onine portfolio I have for photo editors who search online for work they want to buy.

I use Photoshop CS (upgrading soon to CS2). I have fooled around with Elements and some others, but CS and 2 are the best, and for the work I do for the paper and for myself, I need that.

Canon's software isn't horrible or anything, but it's far below standards of photo manipulation for pros and advanced amateus. Any photo program you have that will read RAW files will be good. There also are RAW workflow programs that help organize all those files in a coherent way, but I haven't used those because the system I outlined above has worked fine for me.

[Swimmer]

Quote:

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and I hope you got a USA camera and not a grey market, or a refurbished. I do sincerely hope that you enjoy your camera--the 30D is a really nice camera. I can't wait to see some photos.

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Tom: If there is anything fishy about the camera...it was advertised as new and USA...it will go back lickity split. And yup, can't wait to snap some photos. I know the learning curve will be high...the instruction book will be thick. I will try not to be embarrassed with the quality of my images, at least initially, and constructive critiscism will be welcome!

Funny how Ive purchased two cameras (the other a $79 point & shoot for the boat) since the Big Bass photo-fiasco that some of you may remember...update: we are waiting on the reproduction from Artistic Anglers. I'm lucky that it's been a good year $ so far and am counting the blessings (along with a few camera peddlers)!!