LABS4ME or anyone else, lab breeding ?

[duckbuster]

Hey guys, can you try and answer this question.

My female is Yellow, if I breed her to a Black that is not yellow factored what are the chances she will throw a yellow or 2?

When I go back 4 generations of her pedigree I can only find one yellow. Her father was a yellow factored Black.

What do you think?

Thanks!!

[Bryce]

By just reading this, I would say the odds are real good you'll get some yellows. Possibly as high as 50%. Pretty sure you can test both dogs and come up with some genetic probabilities but nature manages to throw some curves into even that.

[duckbuster]

Why do you think it will be so high,50%?

Thanks!!

[Bryce]

Most likely won't be that high but you never know what mother nature's going to come up with when she rolls the dice. Went through the same thing with our chocolates when I bred some black into the pedigree. Owner of the sire (supposedly very knowledgeable) almost quaranteed we'd get no chocolates. 4 breedings with chocolates in every litter and a different % each time. If I had to make a bet on your litter, my money would be on 30% yellow.

[LABS4ME]

O.K., Let's see if I have this right... you have a yellow female, breeding to a black male (no yellow gene?), here's how I see the pups colors ... if you bred to a yellow male you will have all yellows Y + Y = Y, bred to a Black/yellow factored male (By) you should end up with around 50% By + Y = Y/By , bred to a non-yellow factored black male... What's your definition of "non-yellow factored"... What does his pedigree hold? If he carries no yellow gene (zero) you should not have any yellow pups but rather all black pups with a yellow factor B + Y = By (barring spontaneous mutation)... If he has some yellow in his pedigree but didn't come from yellow parents or two yellow factored parents, you still have some chance of yellow pups, but how many would be a guess... You'll have to define "black, not yellow factored"... If he's black with no yellow gene, your chances are very close to zero. You can have a Vet-Gen DNA work up done to see if the male carries the yellow gene if you wish before doing the breeding.

If you want give me a call and I can try to make heads or tails of it...

Good Luck!

Ken

[gundoglily]

I hope that you have done your work and have had the hips OFA'd and the eyes cerft. on both the female and male.

That is more inportant than the color of the pups.

Sorry to sound anal about this, but there are to many people breeding dogs, especially labs, that don't take the steps to insure that this will be a healthy (longe range) litter.

[Bushwacker]

Here is the best chart I have found for color inheritenance in labs. What pair would you say your are? I have a pregnant female who is eeBB =Yellow (Yy) [does not carry chocolate]and she was bred to a EeBB =Black that carries Yellow(By). From the chart she will have 50% yellow and 50% black. There are a lot of websites out there that will do the calculation for you, but if you post pairing we can figure it out pretty close.

Coat Color Inheritance

In The Labrador Retriever

Key:

BB = black Lab, no chocolate gene

Bb = black Lab, carries chocolate gene

bb = chocolate Lab, no black gene

Yellow is produced by the presence of a recessive epistatic gene which has the effect of masking the the black or chocolate genes.

EE = no yellow gene

Ee = yellow carrier but apears either black or chocolate

ee = yellow Lab

So....

EEBB =Basic Black (BB)

EEBb =Black that carries Choc. (Bc)

EeBB =Black that carries Yellow(By)

EeBb =Black that carries Yellow and chocolate (Byc)

eeBB =Yellow (Yy) [does not carry chocolate]

eeBb =Yellow that carries Chocolate (Yc)

eebb =chocolate pigmented yellow ~ No Black Pigment (NBP)

EEbb =Chocolate (CC) [does not carry yellow]

Eebb =Chocolate that carries yellow (Cy)

[LABS4ME]

Thanks Bushwacker... I wish I could just memorize that! I have a book at home showing the same formulas as you posted, but as usual it's at home!!! Without knowing more about the male it would be hard to calcualte what the outcome of this litter would be.

Gundoglily... I know Duckbuster has his OFA and CERF clearances as an important component in this breeding. He has a lot of money tied up in his little girl... Good to always point that out though.

Good Luck!

Ken

[duckbuster]

OK Bushwacker & LABS help me try and understand the formula here. I will try and give you the info on the dogs.

My female is yellow, both of her parents are black. In fact I can only find ONE yellow going back 4 generations on both sides of her pedigree.

The male is Black and is non-yellow factored.

How much of what the male gives determines the color?

Based on what I'm picking up from my other sites because this dog is non-yellow factored I think I'm going to get all black.

LABS, You might know this dog or owner I'm not sure. His name is Charles Hines from the Chicago area. His dogs name is Nick Of Time Lone Ranger.

The breeding isn't going to take place until December sometime, I need to try and get the CNM test done.

Please let me know what you guys think based on the info provided.

THANKS

[duckbuster]

gundoglily: You can rest easy tonight my friend. She has had all the test done that NEED to be done. I am going to try and have the newest eye test done, the CNM. Believe me this is not something that is being taken lightly. When your stud fee is going to cost you in the neighborhood of 2 grand you make sure all of your T's are crossed & your I's are dotted.

I appreciate your concern!! You are completely correct when you say what you said.

This will be hers/our first time doing this so we are somewhat apprehensive. She will be 4 years old by the time they are on the ground. We are looking forward to seeing what she is going to throw.

THANK YOU for your looking out for the breed that I love so much!!!

[Bushwacker]

Duckbuster,

From your description you have a EEBB(basic black) breeding a eeBB(yellow, non-chocolate factored)= So you would be

100% Blacks who carry the yellow gene. Yellow is recessive so if you have an all black, then you will get an all black litter, unless there is an abnormality someplace. But as a rule, 100% black dogs through all black coats, but the pups will all have the ability to throw yellow pups if they are someday bred.

It sounds like you will have some top-notch pups there. Keep us updated on your progress. My female(disclaimer:both dam and stud have OFA and Cerfs) is due any day now. A mix of nervousness and excitement right now around the house. The whelping box is all set to go. That 63 days FLYS by, at least for me, Libby has gained 16lbs so it is probably dragging on for her. She was 62.5 lbs at her six month check up, and two and half years later she was still 62.7 lbs at the time of her wellness check and smear before the breeding. Last Friday for her x-rays she was 78.9lbs. The pups look to be a very healthy and heavy size!

[LABS4ME]

Duckbuster, Bushwacker is correct. To re-iterate: yellow is a recessive gene so both parents need to carry it. If the stud is all black factored with no yellow gene, you have all black pups that would throw yellows. If he was black and carried yellow it would be in the neighborhood of 50-50 (though that can vary).

Good Luck with your breeding and keep in touch on when it happens. Dave hasn't gotten any news from Greg on success in the trials in Texas so I assume she scrubbed again. He scratched her from one also due to her heat cycle.

Good Luck!

Ken

[gundoglily]

DuckBuster: I did not mean to come across as negative about people wanting to breed and have puppies of their own. It just seems like every Tom, Dick and Harry that have an AKC registered lab, wants to have a litter of puppies to " get back" the money they paid for their dog.

Yet they are not willing to protect and better the breed by doing the necessary health checks . Thank you for doing the neccesary work and good luck with the breeding. Sounds like you should have some awesome puppies!

[Bryce]

OK Labs, I'll to conceed to you on this one. My experience is with the chocolate mutated gene and not the recessive yellow. I'm sure there's a world of difference. Not quite sure why anyone would consider anything but a beautiful chocolate dog anyways but to each his own I guess. Besides, I'm sure we can both agree that I am the superior locator of slabs.

2k seems like a whole lotta moola for a stud that most likely will not give you what you're after. Good black studs are not all that hard to find compared to the good chocolate lines I look for. I just got into Barracuda Blue lines with a SH son for $500. I assume that your potential stud is at least FC with a proven breeding history? Don't mean this to seem harsh, just hope you're looking at what's available.

[duckbuster]

Bryce: I can understand where you are coming from. Ranger is expensive no doubt. I believe part of the reason is the owner does not want him to be over bred. Another reason or two would be, he is indeed an FC-AFC. 3 time national finalist, 2005 High Point Open dog, all before the age of 6. He will in fact give me what I'm looking for, a quality line of field trial labs that hopefully will be very successful.

As far as looking at what's available I have bounced around alot on who I want to use. This dog intrigues me because of the small amount of times he has been bred and of course his record.

Obviously we are a long way from December so I guess things can change but right now that is where my heart is. The unfortunate thing about this is I won't be able to keep one of the puppies this time around. Hopefully next time.

THANKS

gundoglily: Hey NO offense takin!! We all appreciate your concerns which are very, very valid.

LABS: I think my little female is going to give her first Open a run this weekend done in Jacksonville. Entries close tonight at 11:59 and as of now there are 63 dogs entered. It will probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-75 dogs entered. Cross your fingers!!

Bushwacker: THANKS a bunch for the insight!!! I'm sad about the possibilities of no yellows but at the same time excited about what lies ahead for us.

THANKS!!!

[Bryce]

Kinda figured the dog would have a resume like that and limited availability will drive up the fee. Best of luck with the breeding. I'm still not 100% convinced that you won't get any yellows. I've seen Labs4me fish. Keep your fingers crossed.

[Bushwacker]

So much for that formula. My female has 9 pups on the ground as of this very moment and there are 7 yellows and 2 blacks. That is from a black male with recessive yellow and a yellow female. Should be 50/50-- I really hope she is not having another 5 pups X-rays last Friday showed 6 from three different angles. That was money well spent.

[Bryce]

Atta girl. Keep us posted. Mother nature kinda likes to take those nice orderly charts and give em a good shake once in awhile. That or somewhere back in the pedigree, there was a dishonest breeder. Good luck with the pups and post some pics if you have time. Everyone loves a puppy.

[Bushwacker]

Final count on the pups- TWELVE !!!

9 yellow

3 black

That broke down to 5 Males and 7 Females-

Mother and all pups are doing great so far. The smallest pup was born 12.5oz and the largest was 17.5oz. Most of them were between 15oz.-16oz. Libby is eating like crazy, but so are the pups I will get some pics posted today of the crew.

[gundoglily]

Have fun for the next 7 weeks!! Can't wait to see the pictures.

[duckbuster]

Holy S@#$ that is a huge litter. Has she done this before? If so, how many did she have the last time.

Send pictures to all of us, PLEASE!!!!

[Curly]

Bushwacker- I would like some info on your litter of pups,

Thanks

[Bushwacker]

Here is one of the least "messy" pics from yesterdays festivities. This is actually her first litter. I can't get over the x-rays last week showing 6 pups and then she had six of them in an hour and a half. We were happy everyone was healthy, but a little disappointed with a small litter since five were spoken for already, then the flood gates opened

Here's the happy mom with most of the pups visible:

[Bushwacker]

Curly,

Hope the pic works for you.

Marty

[LABS4ME]

The 50/50 yellow to black ratio isn't a rule... just the odds of what will happen when you breed two dogs with the yellow gene. You can potentially have a 100% yellow litter... and potentially have 100% black (that carry yellow), but in the end to have any yellow pups both parents need to be carriers of the gene, no matter how hard you try, if only one is a carrier (like my last litter), you will have all black pups that carry yellow.