Dog won't Point ???

[Saw557]

I have a 16 week old Wirehaired Griffon and I've been out a couple of times with a live pigeon and niether my dog or his litter mates show any interest in pointing. This is my first pointer so I don't really know what to expect.I've done the wing on a string thing and he'll stand there and look at it but I wouldn't call it pointing. On paper they are supposed to be good dogs the sire is a versatile champ and the dam is a prize 1 utilty dog. Maybe it'll just take time?

[SportFishin']

Saw557,

If you are looking for the classic point from a Griffon "Leg Lift & Super Staunch" I don't think your going to get that with a Griff. I have a 5 mo. Griff & he stalks & points, but only once & awhile we will get a leg lift. Most of the time he stands focused on the game staunch but also watching me the handler as I move in for the flush. He also loves to wiggle his tail when I move in on him while I "Whoa" him before the flush.

I think this will come in time he is still a little Pup. Keep up the work. One thing with the wing is he is never ever to catch it. Also don't over work with the wing either early on or it will just become a game.

By the way if you don't mind me asking? Who is the Sire?

Later,

Chris

[metrojoe]

I've got a 7 month old English Setter and speaking from expierence, the anticipation of seeing that first solid point drove me crazy. I don't think there is alot you need to do to teach a dog to point. It's bred into them and it will come.

I highly recommend a "Bird and Gun" intro.

Also, when talking to my trainer, he recommend that if I used the wing on a string, that once she pointed it, there is no need to ever do it again. I had seen her point a couple times while out walking with her, odd things too, a tree stump one time. The points only lasted a few seconds, but she was definitly pointing. So I never used the wing.

12 to 14 weeks.

Sorry it's so blurry. I had to be quick.

[sakman]

Standing and looking at it is the point. Pointing is a reaction of a breed of dog to a certain concentration of scent that causes them to stop and "point" in the direction of the scent. The only time you'll get the leg in the air is if the dog happens to have it up when they stop and look. The hunting trials by the AKC do not require that and you likely won't get it, so don't worry. I own a Vizsla and my best hunting buddy has GSP's. We've shot hundreds of birds over these pointers (not to mention the number of hen pheasants that we don't shoot). I could count on my hands and toes the number of points I've seen that represent the "classic" point.

[gspman]

You need to get that little Griff on some live birds to light it's fire.

Here's a couple things to consider trying

Try this first...

Get some pigeons (or other STRONG flying birds) and plant them in low cover and lead the pup in on a check cord. Do this in a cross wind fashion so you can tell when it hits scent. If it points that's great. If it doesn't then let it go in but make sure it doesn't catch the bird. Flush the bird if the pup will let you otherwise just let the pup flush but not catch the bird. When the bird flushes let the dog chase it. It's important to have strong fliers so the pup won't catch the bird while chasing. This should get the fired up about birds. Do this 2 or three times per session and then quit. Make sure to quit on a positive note. Do not use guns in any shape or form during this excercise.

This try this if the first suggestion didn't work...

Get a pigeon and pull the flight feathers off and put it in front of the pup and let it catch the bird and carry it around. Don't be surprised if you hear alot of growling and yowling when it's carrying the bird. It may not want to give up the bird either. I know this is counter to what I stated above but we are trying to flip the switch on the pup and get it wound up about birds. It wouldn't do this but once or twice though and only once if it works the first time.

As stated in a previous post, ditch the wing on a string.

Also, not to be insulting but having a front leg lifted up on point has nothing to do with staunchness or intensity.

MetroJoe, that's a good looking pup you have there!

[mwal]

I currently have a 2 yr old Drahthaar. She only does the classic lifted front leg point 1 out 10 times. Most of the time she streches out and staunches up. You can literally pick her up. When she was a young pup she would hesitate a few seconds on the wing on a string. The breeder then had me switch to live birds in a release. We worked dog as described above she would hesitate then go for bird we would flush and let her chase. She learned very quickly she can't catch birds. Then she would hold longer until we released her for a flush. We didn't shoot a bird until she was close to 5 months old and probably had pointed 20 to 30 birds. I wouldn't worry yet your dog is young. The wing and string is no indication of pointing ability. I have had 2 previous dogs that didn't point wing and string that were great pointers. One even did the classic front leg pose every time. The other did it infrequntly. Consider going to training days with a NAVDHA group they are a great resource of helpfull people.

Good Luck

[Saw557]

I realize what I have isn't a "classic" poionting dog and I never expected him to really lock up in that fashion. I am not all that worried about it right now it's my first pointer and it's the anticipation of seeing it happen. The sire is "Spike"

Scott

[charliepete2]

Not all pups point right off the bat. I wouldn't start worrying about such a young dog until it gets a lot more exposure to birds. I haven't had the greatest luck with my dogs pointing pigeons. Pigeons are easy to raise and catch, but they don't cause rock solid points the way quail have for me. If a dog doesn't show interest in pointing quail I start to worry. They are one of the stinkiest birds out there.

[gspman]

We need to quit worrying about how many feet the dog has on the ground when it points. That's irrelevant. The important thing is that the dog is pointing. 4 feet, 3 feet, standing on it's head, who cares. It's pointing.

Years ago at a club training session I saw a guy check-cord his young pup into a bird and when it pointed he proceeded to try to curl one of the pups front legs off the ground. The pup kept putting it's leg down and he kept curling it back up. I didn't say anything but I really wanted to give him some unsolicited advice in the vein off "What in the %@$@#% are you doing?!?! Just let the little guy point and enjoy the scent of the bird!" He was more concered with how it looked than with the fact that it was pointing.

[captkev]

LOL... .... GSPMan, I have a friend of mine that was a lab-man all his life, I think I've converted him, but he refers to the legg thing all the time... I hunt a gsp aswell and I dont care one way or the other as long as she stops.

Keep in mind too, great breeding is a must in my book, but even the best of breeding can produce a botched litter,

I seen a few dogs that sold in the thousands that had great blood lines but were as dumb as a box of rocks.

On a good note though, The 6 year old gsp that I have came from marginal breeding and was about to be put to sleep, she has amazed many people who dont concider the german dog as much compaired to their setters, I think she usualy puts most of the birds in the bag, she may not point as many times durring the day, but she also is where it wont take 30 min. to reach the point.

[311Hemi]

You mean clasic like this??? LOL....GSP..I haven't seen my pup to the standing on head point yet......but hopefully once I get him on some live birds I will see it! Is that something I should try and train into him and how does one go about that??

[SportFishin']

I really could careless if the leg was up or down either. I was just trying to tell him that the "GRIFFON" breed will rarely lift it's leg & not to worry the Pup is still young yet. It will come in time. The Sire is a great dog! My Pup has the same Sire & has been pointing from day one. I don't know about your pups Dam. I was just asking due to the Griff breeders being very passionate about thier breed & I'm sure your dog is fine.

My pup also shows no interest in pointing pigeons any longer either. I would try to introduce him to quail & pheasants. The key is Birds,Birds,& more Birds.

Good Luck with your training,

Chris

[Saw557]

Yeah I kinda figured you had the same sire. I actually had pick of the litter on that bunch of puppies but opted to go with another litter because they were local. I am resonably sure he'll be ok just the anticipation of seeing it happen I guess

Scott

[SportFishin']

Saw557,

Yeah you bumped me up to first pick on that litter from Mark. THANKS!!! They were all great pups though so I don't think anybody would have received a bad pick. I'll try to post a pic of our Pup pointing later in the week he looks just like Spike did when he was young.

I understand your anticipation on seeing that first point it's one great moment of the many more to come. Your going to love hunting over a pointer. This is my second pointer my first was a GSP. You might want to start to get him on some game birds that will probably trigger that instinct to point. Or the methods that GSPMAN described above work well also & at 16wks there should be no Gun work yet.

Are you a member of NAVDHA?

Later,

Chris

[Saw557]

Chris

Yeah I joined NAVDHA and I've been to a training day and a test day with the guy I bought my dog from....thats why I didn't get my dog from Mark I thought I would get some help from my breeder and so far he has been great he took me out the first time we put Max on a pigeon. I've caught a bunch of pigeons so I am going to take him out and try the other methods. We were out last night for a walk and looked like he was try to point some tweety birds so I am sure it'll come. Did you get a male or female ?

Scott

[brittman]

Style is certainly both breed and individual dependent.

My older Brittany is simply solid on her points, but while intense - she almost seems like - its matter of fact - her is another one. Fact is she does a great job locating and pinning wild birds.

By Brittany pup points every and anything. Wing, toys, flies, birds, children, etc... The intensity she displays on her points is very high. Her ability to locate birds and pin them are in development.

Comments

Preserves and wild bird seasons are in full swing. Bird and gun training can be done on your own. Sorry MJ - had to say it!

Forget pigeons if you can. I am convinced they do not have the same scent as true upland birds. They work if that is all you have access to.

I am convinced pro trainers use them for several reasons:

1) cheap, if not free. These guys need to earn a living to feed their family. Paying for game birds is tough on the budget - even if they eat the dead birds.

2) easy to maintain. pigeons are very hardy.

3) tough. they do not die easily

4) a dead bird is a dead bird ... retrievals.

Quail, chuker, and hen pheasants (preserves -for those who would have to comment) are perfect for the young pups to train on. Taste fine too! I do avoid roosters because of their size, and desire to stay alive at all costs - spurs.

One the pup has experience. Time for the wild rooster pheasants.

[brittman]

GSP man: One of my favorite points to see is when the dog locks up looking like the letter U. Turning into the wind the dog hits the scent cone.

Stylish - no, but the dog hit the scent and froze in her tracks.

From a guy who also runs short tails, style is in the eye of the beholder.

[metrojoe]

No apologies necessary…It’s all good….everyone is allowed their own opinion. I think the issue was more the presentation.

As I posted before, My first attempt at training my dog did not go as well as I’d hoped. I came to realize I lacked the recources and skill to properly train a dog. I believe my new pup can only benefit from that admission. IMHO the trainer only plants the seed. There is still plenty of work to be done.

As far as style goes when pointing, I don’t care as long as it’s solid. Also, that picture above just so happen to be the only one that turned out. I burned a lot of film for that one shot.

[SportFishin']

Saw557,

I picked a Male his name is "Rudy". 21wks old now & he weighed in at 42.2 lbs, has legs like a deer, & huge webbed feet. He has started to get a little darker under-coat, but we think his coarse hairs will stay gray. I'll snap a pic. of him tonite & post it later.

Hey maybe I'll see you at one of the NA Tests?

brittman- I love those U shaped points too!!! No points for style but you sure score on intensity.

Later,

Chris

[gspman]

Brittman,

I love pretzel points. It usually means the bird is right there when a dog points like that. My first dog's very first wild bird point was a pretzel point. It was a hen pheasant that literally flew between my legs as I went in to flush. Scared the bejesus out of me.

Reasons pro's use pigeons (some of which Brittman already mentioned):

- They are very hardy.

- Some will reproduce in the coupe so you can have a renewable resource.

- Usually no problems with availability and they are cheap.

- They stink so young dogs can scent them from far off and not get into too much trouble.

- Can handle alot of stress and not die.

- Strong fliers and usually don't land back on the ground so a dog can catch them.

- Homing instinct so you can reuse them. Pros usually have a supply of kill birds and homers. If you use homers you can train miles away and your pigeons will come home to roost.

- You can card pigeons or use a length of garden hose so they don't fly so far and will land on the ground again.

- You can wing-lock them so they can't fly unless you unlock them.

Some refer to pigeons as "skyrats".

Pigeons are very useful for training but there is no real substitute for wild game birds.

gspman

[brittman]

MJ: Great looking dog. Any Minnesotan owning something besides a lab is pretty good in my book.

Oops did I really say that?

Sorry Timmy. I do like your lab.

[SportFishin']

SAW557,

Here is that pic of Rudy pointing.

And yes I will take my beating for saying that the Griffs never lift thier leg. That was all he would do last night with my son working with him. Guess the Dog has his own mind & style.

Later,

Chris

[metrojoe]

Thanks gspman and brittman.

How could I go wrong with one of Kenai's pups.

I'm just busting over here waiting to go hunting. She's having birds shot over her starting today and all of next week. I pick her up Thursday evening. I'm going to be out next weekend he!! or high water.

I haven't heard anything, but I'm looking forward to another "get together" at Glendorado. I know this time of year it's pretty tough up there but a good frost should knock some of that stuff down.

[Saw557]

Chris

Great pic of Rudy pointing. "Max" may be coming around a little bit I've seen him kinda "lock-up" a couple of times in the last few days and I've had him on a check cord with pigeons and he seems pretty interested. I am sure it'll happen it's just time. I whish I had a digital camera.....and the smarts to use it. Max is real furry Griffon lots of furnshing he's so ugly he's cute!

Thanks

Scott