Carbon arrows

[axel grease]

I shoot carbon express terminator 60/75's. They are rather heavy arrows. They seem to shoot well enough, but I like to try something lighter. Carbon tech has an ad in magazines that shows the different brands arrow weights per inch. I was wondering if ayone has shot the carbon tech brand with any kind of success.

I'm not completly sold on speed kills, but it can't hurt.

[BLACKJACK]

I'm not familiar with the carbon tech arrows but I went to the carbons that Easton sell last year and I like them. Since they've 'flattened out' the trajectory of my arrows, range estimation is less critcal. Another advantage is that they're tougher, if your aluminaum arrow hits something and gets a kink, its never straight again. The carbons stay straight until they shatter. And they'll go right thru a whitetail just like aluminums. Bigger game might be a different story. Also the price nowadays is comparable to aluminum.
Try them, you'll like them.

[axel grease]

I am happy with carbons. I justwondering how people have done with lighter ones. Mine are 10g/p/i.

[Fisher Dave]

10 gpi (grains per inch for some who dont know) is a pretty *healthy* arrow. I'm assuming these are camo pattern carbon arrows? The camo arrows are heavier from the finish. The finish makes the arrow more durable .. but they weigh considerably more.

I shy away from the camo finished arrows now for that exact reason. The standard *black* arrow shafts are as tough as they need to be, and usually weigh about 20%-30% less. The lighter arrow will give a flatter tragectory and more velocity.. in the end it equals better penetration. The camo arrows are way too heavy in comparison.

I would check out the cabela's HSOforum in the archery. They have several different types of arrows, and charts to go along with them to be sure your getting the right arrow for your application. The arrow shaft will vary with manufacturers... and in the end everyone does not have the same needs ..

[Bogsucker]

Beg to differ, a lighter arrow, same bow same broadhead, same hit, always equals less penetration (Laws of Momentum apply here). I witnessed an arrow bounce out (3" penetration) of a small doe hit (hind quarter) with a "light" 2514, 85 grain head out of a 85 lb bow, the deer was never recovered. The same year I made a bad hit on a deer with a "heavy" 2219, 125 grain head out of a 70 lb bow that completely penetrated the deers hind quarters severing both femoral arteries and shattering both femurs just below the hip joint, the deer was recovered after a 10 yard tracking job! Now that's about as far different in arrow setups as you can get but shows the difference. Granted any hunting arrow with a "sharp" broadhead will kill a deer provided it's hit in the chest, miss by 4" and hit it in shoulder blade and you're gonna wish you'd had a heavier arrow. The difference in trajectory from a 40 fps (about the most you'd get from a lighter arrow) faster arrow is for practical purposes negligible. 10 grains per pound for a hunting arrow is very suitable and within 30-40 yards trajectory shouldn't be a problem.

[axel grease]

I shot 2514's at 68# with an 85 grain thunder head for 7 years. I had great success with penatration. I don't think any weight arrow or any super broadhead will make up for a bad hit, but shoting a lighter arrow will help your margin of error on yardage misjudgement.

I was having problems with a variety of things with consistancy being the greatest of them all. So I decided to change everything in mid season . New Mathews, carbon arrows, fall away rest , a peep site and a release. All this was done during the week end of my states first shotgun season. I went out to hunt on Monday after gun season in the afternoon and was in my stand for twenty minutes and shot a buck thats rack will score cose to 140. When I shot I looked around my peep OOps. I shot it a little back.
I let it go till the next morning and found it dead in a pond about 175 yards away.

Confidence is the key nothing else. I just want a little more speed for a little more confidence. The killing power will be there. Alse going to a release helped me out on my target apathy.

[Fisher Dave]

The only time I had a problem with penetration was due to a mechanical broadhead. The deer I shot I had previously shot(10 minutes before) with a standard broadhead and the arrow stuck in the ground about 20 yards on the other side of the deer(passed clean through breaking 2 ribs). The 2nd shot(mechanical) was nearly the same distance as the 1st shot... but penetrated only a few inches. That arrow came out of the deer within 10 yards. Both of these arrows were identical besides the broadhead.. needless to say, I will never use another mechanical. These shots were with aluminum(2315) arrows from a 72# bow.

[axel grease]

Lets talk about speed. The bow goes off. NOISE. The animal moves. This as much ,if not more,than anything results in poor penatration.

A whisper quiet bow and speed kills.

I like to seemy arrow in flight but if I don't that would be ok too.

[Bogsucker]

Somewhat of a contradiction. A lighter arrow results in a noiser bow and a lighter arrow is also harder to stabilize. Like I said before, same bow, same broadhead, lighter arrow, same hit always has less penetration, we're talking physics principals here, sectional density and momentum, penetration is based on momentum and sectional density (aside from broadhead style) and the less penetration may very well be significant. A 10 gr/inch arrow at 220 fps has 30% more momentum than a 6 gr/inch arrow at 280 fps and 11% more than a 6 gr/inch arrow at 300 fps. A lighter larger diameter shaft also has less sectional density even further reducing penetration. Over a 60 fps (220 fps -280 fps)arrow speed range, at 30 yards, a 5 yard distance judging error will result in a miss (8" vital zone) only with the slowest arrow. At 40 yards a 5 yard distance judging error will result in a miss (8" vital zone) for all arrows over the same 60 fps speed range. And a deer can react faster than any bow on the market. You cannot shoot an arrow faster than a deer can react, you can only compensate by holding low and hoping the deer reacts.

edit. my units were a bit confusing

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 01-23-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 01-23-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 01-23-2004).]

[Bogsucker]

Kinetic energy is for the most part only dependent only on the draw weight of the bow and is NOT the effective measure of penetration in a gun or bow!
Kinetic energy out of the same bow or gun will not vary by more than about 5% across any weight range of arrow or bullet.

I don't know who sold the concept of Kinetic energy to determine lethality of a projectile but they really screwed up.

A 50 gr 22-250 (1540 ft-lb) has about the same kinetic energy as a 405 gr 45-70 (1590 ft-lb). Which would you rather use on a Brown Bear hunt? Now the momentum difference is, 22-250 has 25 foot-lb-sec and the 45-70 has 77 foot-lb-sec. See the diff?

It's not as drastic between arrows but it does make a difference.

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 01-23-2004).]

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[Iceman77]

Bogsucker has it right. Momentum principles apply when impact occurs not kinetic energy. I shoot 2514's with 125 grain rocky's. I've also shot Gold tips carbons with 85 grain broadheads and there is a huge difference in penetration with a heavy arrow vs. light arrows. In all reality most shots for an even above average shooter with a bow should be less than 30 yards and at that point do you really need to have extra speed for a misjudged yardage??? With my heavy arrows I have two pins with one set at 20 and another at 40 yards, but I also go through the extremes to get parallax correct. With my light arrows back in my command shooting days(not using back tension to get the release to fire)I made a poor shot and hit a deer in the shoulder blade... nothing for penetration and I felt terrible. I went and made my 2514's up and did the same stupid mistake but this time it clear went through the shoulder blade and I got the deer. Carbon arrows will usually collapse when they hit a hard object and absorb energy and many times will shatter. Aluminums will flex but they will not collapse, therefore delivering more energy through impact. Besides the way after my poor shots this convinced me to start using back tension to fire my release... man am I glad I did that!!!!

[superfish2]

If we are talking how much kinetic energy the arrow hits with and penetrates with the equation is 1/2*m*V^2 with velocity being much more important due to being squared.

[Fisher Dave]

You guys are missing something here.. however, this does appy to which carbon arrow is being used.

Many of the carbon arrows are appox 1/2 the diameter of 25XX aluminum arrows.

It takes much less force to drive a pin vs a nail. A lot will come down to the broadhead being used, and shot placement.. We cant expect any arrow to pass through heavy bone, although many will most the time, including carbon.

[Bogsucker]

Shaft diameter has very little to do with penetration in an animal. Carbon arrows still have a larger diamter adapter to fit a broadhead. As long as the shaft diameter is the same or less than the broad head base it doesn't much matter. Even then diameter is not really a factor. Momentum, tip style and sharpness are it.

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 01-24-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 01-24-2004).]

[Iceman77]

One of the biggest factors of individuals having poor penetration is due to improper arrow flight(either from excessive bow torque or from just plain poor arrow/bow setup). The arrow diameter does affect penetration all be it very slightly. There isn't much difference due to penetration between larger and smaller diameter arrows due to the forces involved and the small differences in diameter. Mass definately and scientifically proven is the largest determining factor in momentum, which is the determining factor in penetration of arrows due to small diametrical differences and little velocity change between setups. You don't get much gain out of carbon arrows and it has been proven by many that carbons will absorb some of the impulse energy and deform in irregular ways therefore greatly reducing penetration.

[axel grease]

I suppose I'll just buy some lighter ones and experiment on my own. I'm sure as long as I'm above the g/p/i minimum for my bow I will not have any problems with shooting through a deer.

[Fisher Dave]

I think you guys were beat up by a mathmatition(sp?) when you were children.. going over these post is frying my brain(whats left of it).

Ok.. the arrows I'm shooting now are 7.5 gpi. Origionally .. before I got a new bow, the arrows(shaft length were 31" long.

232.5 g shaft weight
5 g Insert + Nock
15 g flething
125 g broadhead

377.5g actual arrow weight.

My previous bow was set at 72 lbs and I got roughly 280 fps out of it (older bow).

Now my arrows are 25"

187.5 g shaft
5 g nock + insert
15 g fletching
125 g broadhead

332.5 g actual arrow weight

My new bow, equipped with an overdraw, shooting at 63 lbs gives me 320 fps. Obviously the bow is much of the factor, but the arrows being roughly 8 1/2% lighter have an impact on the speed.. and in the end benefit me greatly.

If I were to change to a broadhead that was 100 grain, and a shaft that was 6 gpi.. my arrows would weigh 34 grains less.. or 298.5 g.

By doing this and likely turning my bow up a few pounds.. I have no doubt I could get 340+ fps... and I would likely be shooting flat up to nearly 50 yards.

If you do the math, the arrow impact will still be lethal enough to take a grizzly bear down.. and probably stick in the tree behind it, but the main effect that would effect me is the flat shot tragectory. We dont have to worry how much penetration we get.. if we dont hit the deer in the 1st place.

I watched a trophy run away this year as my arrow passed about an inch below its chest.. that was enough to make me switch back to carbon.. if I had carbon arrows that day, my shot would have been perfect.

[Mark Christianson]

I think I am going to opt for a branch off a tree, and some string for a bow.

Much less complicated......

Just when I thought going to archery for a more simplistic and closer to wildlife option, I have now been completely lost in space with physics.

[Bogsucker]

Your super fast super light arrow at 320 fps still has less momentum than my 581 grain arrow at less than 190 fps. I seriously doubt that a 332.5 grain arrow at 320 fps would shoot thru a grizzly bear and I certainly wouldn't try it.

Axel Grease, you could certainly try a lighter arrow as the 60/75's you have are among the heaviest arrows made. I'd recomend not going to the minimum though try to stay above 7 grains per pound of draw weight,

AMO states a minimum of 5 (some mfg's 6) grains of arrow weight per pound of draw to prevent bow breakage. You don't want to break your bow.

AMO rates bow speed based on a 540 grain arrow at 60 lb draw weight. (9 grains per pound)

IBO rates bow speed based on a 350 grain arrow at 70 lbs draw weight. (5 grains per pound)

You need to consider total arrow weight not grains per inch of arrow.

FYI, I'm an experienced (25 years, 4 states, 2 countries, and 32 deer (15 by archery)) hunter and archer and formerly in archery sales.

As Uncle Ted says, whack 'em and stack em!

[This message has been edited by Bogsucker (edited 01-25-2004).]

[axel grease]

Now thats more like it.

Bogsucker I am well seasoned with bowhunting. Shoot big fat heavy arrows if you believe that gives you more killing power. That's the confidence part. Do you shoot fingers or a release aid?

Fisher Dave what bow do you shoot? Plus y're leaving me hang'n because you didn't tell what arrow you shoot.

BigLakeba$$ don't worry this is just the evolution of the sport. Start anywhere you like and have fun.

[Iceman77]

Dave,

I've seen very few bows actually get up to the 330-340 fps range. What bow are you shooting? IBO speed ratings are heavily overated for certain bow companies geared towards hunter sales so if that's the values you are referring to I would measure the speed if you want to know. Even 320 fps is fairly difficult to achieve while still obtaining a forgiving bow. The best archers that I compete with will stay in the 280 fps range for 3D's because it creates a more forgiving setup. Do you know of anyone that owns Archer Advantage software? If you do I would plug in the numbers between different speed combinations on the same bow while still using a properly spined arrow. The trajectory changes but it's not as much as you feel it is, hence the reason why most guys will stay below the 300 fps mark. I have the program and if you want you can send me your bow specs and I can show you the differences in trajectory. The one thing I can guarantee is that bow efficiency is lost due to vibration effects within the bow and the items attached to it, therefore decreasing accuracy. I would also highly suggest viewing Easton's slow motion video of the shot sequence... you would be amazed at how much things really flex!!! This is where I would definately stay well above IBO and AMO minimums, they place the minimum spec. but bows ARE NOT as forgiving down in that range. I am currently shooting archery professionaly(my first year) and I have one protec and 3 ultratecs, each of which, are setup for different venues of archery(hunting included). I've played around with all kinds of carbons and weights and I've selected an option to my liking that gives me the best and most consistent groups for my style of shooting. Without proper form and setup it wouldn't matter what I was shooting.

If you are looking at getting your pins closer together than I would suggest setting up your parallax on your bow better. If you are looking at just increasing speed for your bow for error misjudgement then I would go through parallax on your bow again. Also, if you choose and you want to see the real world characteristics of different setups and trajectories for the same bow without purchasing arrows let me know and I can show you what the differences are. I've seen way too many people switch to carbon arrows because they want better trajectories due to yardage misjudgement. I feel this is just a bandaid for the actual problem(not practicing yardage judging skills). Carbons also have a tendency to make many hunters feel they can shoot farther because they have a flatter trajectory. Although the carbons didn't make them shoot any better unless they had an improper arrow setup for their bow, therefore this will turn into wounded game. Unfortunately many hunters will shoot outside of their effective shooting range when they see a shooter animal. In all reality with todays equipment and shooting a heavy arrow you should be able to get by with one pin out to 30 yards. At 80 yards I shoot 4.5" average groups given calm conditions with my field round target setup. When it comes to bownhunting I will not shoot at a deer past 40 yards ever and even at that it's pushing it. I've seen a fellow archer shoot at a deer on video with his setup at 317 fps and the deer completely "ducked" the arrow at 22 yards!!! I wouldn't have believed it until I saw it.

Again, if you want to see the differences in trajectory without spending money let me know. I would just need some specs. from your bow, certain measurements, and your style of shooting and we can go from there.

Just remember the biggest thing in sales is marketing hype and people telling you what you need to get that buck of a life. Looking at real world results from trusted sources is in your best interest as a consumer. Shooting professionaly I see tons of people trying to "buy" results instead of working with what they have to make things better.

[Bogsucker]

Actually, I shoot barebow (round-wheel compound, no sights) with fingers and I do not have to worry about "consciously" judging distance or choosing the correct pin, not that I haven't missed, I've just seen too many hunting mishaps by others with light weight arrow set-ups.

[BT3]

A friend of mine and I bought the same bows. we both have Havoc's, but we shoot different arrows. we both have drop away rests and both are very guiet shooting. I shoot lighter carbons and he shoots a heavier aluminum. Both are set at about 60lbs for the draw weight, the biggest difference is our speeds. He gets 210 fps and I get about 250 fps. We both shot deer this year and both set ups had a full pass through of both lungs so I think shot placement and the quietness of your bow before during and after the shot are more important than speed. To light of an arrow and a higher poundage bow will in time hurt your bow in my opinion, but I have only been bow hunting for two years and am very addicted.

[This message has been edited by BT3 (edited 02-15-2004).]