Muzzleloading without the crowds

[lakevet]

Anyone else out there ticked at the new licensing that allows guys to hunt regular and muzzleloading season. The muzzleloading season originally was to provide a primitive hunting experience in the woods under tougher hunting conditions. A large part of that is not having to deal with a hunter in every tree. My family switched to muzzleloading to get away from the crowds. In 2002 we saw more guys in the woods than we had seen all the years before combined. All were guys who hunted the regular season only when they had to choose between regular firearms and muzzleloading. Now they can hunt both. Well the ones that had access to our farms during regular season now have NO access whatsoever!!! Anyone else who wants to see if the licensing can be reversed speak up. They can still be in the woods with a bow but 99.9% are not dedicated enough to go that route. Hunters need to stand together, but providing access to everyone to all seasons will cause more problems like this. The hunters who hunted our land last year may show up in your hunting area this year looking for a place to hunt! Any other muzzleloaders who feel this way speak up!!

Lakevet

[Mr Special]

Sorry to here that. But I myself have one of those license and I though it was a great opportunity for me to finally hunt the Muzzleloader season. I bow hunt, gun hunt both slug, rifle and muzzleload now. In 2001 after the gun hunt, I bow hunted the muzzleloading season. I had a buck of a lifetime within 15yds, but no shooting lane good enough for a bow. When this new license was create I though that if I had a muzzleloader, I would've had that buck of a lifetime. Last year I tag a doe with an intensive harvest tag late in the season and past up on plenty decent buck and still had two tags after the season. Again sorry to hear your hunting experience last season could of been better, but maybe it was just those hunters and not all of us. I hunt on both private and public lands and didn't notice to much different last season.

Good luck this coming season

[lakevet]

Glad to hear you had an enjoyable season. I have had more than one dandy buck get away. As my 72 year old dad says, "thats why its called hunting not shooting". When you do get a buck of a lifetime, it will be all the more satisfying, and if you get it with a bow you can really have bragging rights. I have seen a few nice bucks that are easy 30-06 range, but out of muzzleloader range. You just let em go and work on your hunting skills to get you closer, rather than looking for an equipment fix to make up for lack of skill, bad luck, etc. The ten point I have in my home would have been easy pickings with a regular rifle, but instead I had to track it most of the day to get close enough. Who knows, you not having a muzzleloader may have let that buck live so a young kid could get a chance at it. I know my using a longbow instead of a compound bow has saved many a deer's life!

lakevet

[This message has been edited by lakevet (edited 03-05-2003).]

[BLACKJACK]

lakevet, the problem you have is that muzzleloaders are getting cheaper AND easier to use vrs bows, which are expensive and take a lot of practice to become proficient. So people that like to deer hunt pick up a muzzleloader and keep hunting.... In fairness, muzzleloaders should have their own season and people should have to pick one or the other, but the DNR looks at it as providing more 'opportunity' to hunt.

[setterguy]

I have to respectfully disagree. I too purchased one of the "all season tags" last year. I have always wanted to try muzzleloading and this gave me the perfect oppurtunity to give it a shot without giving up our traditional rifle opener. With the deer numbers where they are I think that the extra numbers of hunters in the woods for an extended period of time will only help the overall quality of the herds. I think anything that allows more people to experience the great outdoors will only better the total quality of our resources. It used to be alot less crowded on the lakes before all these fancy portables were available too, but I love to see it. The more the merrier I say. Its our state, we should enjoy it together.

[Mr Special]

lakevet,
Sorry to hear all that anger in your thoughts. But being 15yds, on the ground still hunting, I think was really skillful and closeup hunting.

[lakevet]

First, I want to emphasize that as deer hunters we need to stand together as a group. We need to agree to disagree at times and not lose sight of the bigger problems - PETA, CWD, loss of habitat etc.

Mrspecial, Congrats on your skill, no insult intended. I apologize if I offended you. As my dad says, "thats why they call it hunting not shooting". May you get him next time.

iveringdog, if you read my original post you will see the words "family" and "our farms". You also should note that for years we have let non-family hunt the prime rut- rifle season on our farms while family & friends waited for the muzzleloading season so we could hunt together. Many a nice deer including a dandy 13 point buck were shot by the rifle season people. This was free to them, not a hunting lease. Having to chose between seasons spread hunters out. But when they hunt the lands my family has paid for, paid taxes, insurance, etc on for the past 100+ years, then try to displace the 12,13 and 16 year old kids from their stands during muzzleloader season, we finally had it. They had the "our deer our land" attitude. If hunting with family & friends, trying to get kids and senior parents the best chances for a deer, while you go thru swamp & brush and not see a deer (but enjoying it more because the gunshot you heard hopefully means the 12 yr old got his first deer)is my narrow minded view then I'm narrow minded. If letting people who are neither family or close friends hunt your land is narrow minded, unless they try to keep your kids from stands on your own land , then I'm guilty as charged.This same issue is affecting the 3B season where there is opposition against both all season and multi-zone buck hunters by people who have the traditional hunt with family and friends.
See the MN DNR HSOforum for more info. Also see FM's Hunting dicussion board. All I am asking is that muzzleloaders who feel like myself (and people in the 3B hunt) speak up to the DNR for limitations on the all season license.That is the way the system works. Also respect landowner rights, police your own ranks/hunting parties. Again this all occurred on private, NOT public land.I want our (including irvingdogs) kids, nieces nephews to enjoy and pass on this great tradition to the generation after them. Selfishness and me first will only destroy the sport and give PETA ammo.

Thank you

lakevet

ps take a kid or senior with the next time you hunt or fish

[This message has been edited by lakevet (edited 03-10-2003).]

[This message has been edited by lakevet (edited 03-10-2003).]

[irvingdog]

What can be said that LakeVet already took care of? He wants the woods to himself, and has affixed a particular virtue to his definition of hunting during his season in his woods.
The introduction of the compound bow didn't really do much more to the traditional archery season other than reduce the number of cripples running around in the woods. The increase in the number of MML hunters in the woods was steadily increasing over the past few years. The new license just validated the need to allow people to hunt in as many ways as the individual chooses. The 209 primer, triple seven, Pyrodex pellets, the Omega, Contender and Black Diamond changed the face of Muzzleloaders and the muzzleload season, not the DNR. Wheellock, Flintlock, Hammerlock are all fabulous pieces of history, relaible guns and fun to shoot. But, believe it or not, change IS good. There are thousands of bitter guys over at muzzmag.com that you can share your feelings with, but take warning, you will sound more bitter and selfish than you already did here at FM.com.
These are our woods, and our game. Not just yours.

[This message has been edited by irvingdog (edited 03-10-2003).]

[This message has been edited by irvingdog (edited 03-10-2003).]

[BLACKJACK]

lakevet, you make a good point about hunters sticking together, we are getting to be the minority and the Peta's of the world will keep on dividing and conquering. Look no farther than the banned bear seasons in Ontario and Colorado. I've seen the same divisions in the archery world when the discussion comes up on stick bows vrs compounds vrs crossbows.

Sounds like you also had a bad experience with hunters that thought it was their 'right' to hunt your land. Just remember, its always that 1-2% of the bad apples that make it hard for everyone with their tresspassing, tossing garbage, slob hunting, etc.

Part of the problem is that we just have too many people, good hunting land is harder to come by. I don't know what the answer is except for we need to support organizations that set aside hunting land like Pheasants Forever. Now with the budget crunch, one of the intiatives to set aside more hunting land has been tossed out. Nobody likes higher taxes but sometimes they're necessary to accomplish something.

[irvingdog]

Sorry LakeVet, but your post started out with you being unhappy with the new all season license. That was your initial question. The topic is "Muzzleloading without the crowds". That is what I responded to; the point you made. Not the one you implied. I listen to people gripe constantly about how the woods are now overrun with too many modern muzzleloaders, and that is how this post started, so you'll forgive me if I responded to that point.
If you have people on your land that do not have permission, call the sherriff. They are trespassers. Have them arrested. The idea of losing control of a hunting situation that my son or nephews are involved in, with the introduction of trespassers, does not get tolerated. I'd sooner lose a days hunt than lose my boy. And yes, I've had trespassers on my deer lease. I come in with the airhorn to make them aware of my location, while on my way to talk to them about their actions.
So, agian, I'm sorry if I misread your post. It seemed anti "new muzzleload hunters", not anti trespassers.

[lakevet]

There was several problems that came together at once. The kids were unhappy but are excited about next year.The question remains, when an all-season hunter is in a stand for rifle and muzzleloader season where before two people used the same stand(hunting spot, hunting land)during two separate seasons it has the potential to cause more conflict. If you own/lease land, the owner/ lease holder will prevail, but the quality of the hunt will be degraded for all. Many people can't afford to own/lease land, especially kids. I am not anti-new technology (our group has a mix of muzzleloaders), I am not anti-new muzzleloading hunters, I am anti-all season license for the above reason. Anyone who wants to muzzleload always could, if they were willing to pass on the rifle season. Our not hunting the rifle season opened up opportunities for rifle hunters. I have heard of situations where landowners who used to let muzzleloaders hunt their land now are using the all-season license to hunt both seasons, thus displacing the muzzleloaders. More opportunities for more people to hunt were present before the all season license. The all-season license decreases the total number of people who can hunt an area while increasing the time some people can hunt at the expense of others. I remember not very long ago when a hunting lease was unheard of in Minnesota. Now it is very common as is buying hunting land to be able to have a place to hunt. I don't want hunting to get to be available only to the ones with the money to buy/lease, but things like the all-season license are only going to accelerate the trend.

Thanks guys for listening to me. Glad we all are trying to understand each other. Happy hunting.

Lakevet

p.s. don't forget the kid or senior

[This message has been edited by lakevet (edited 03-11-2003).]

[korn_fish]

One thought comes to mind - you say us hunters should stick together, but you don't want to seem to share. I own land that I hunt and let others hunt. I hunt other private land as well that I do not lease, I hunt public land, and I hunt land that I do lease.

It took me many years to get all the land that I hunt, wether it is owned, leased, or just given permision. I agree with the all-season liscense, but also hear your pain. I don't think that banning the all-season liscense will fix the issue. This past year was a lot different than past, not only because of the all-season, but because of the multiple deer that one could take with it. I know a lot of people that hunted slug and also bow prior to this year, of whom none opted for the muzzleloader season this year. So you would think that the time spent in the field would not be different for them. However, it tripled for them, and nearly quadrupled for me. Because we were not done after the first deer, and went back in for the second. So would banning the all-season license change that for us next year? NOPE, because we could still take two deer. If you take away the all-season, and still let multiple deer be taken, those who were muzzleloading will change to bows, or a different rifle or slug season. There are seasons all over the state, which you seem to think it is only your one season, bow and muzzleloader.

So you are probably saying now that we should change the laws again so only one deer should be taken. I say maybe in the right areas, but not statewide.

Now going back to this topics original post, I have to say from the sounds of you bickering, that there was some major mis-communication with you and the other hunting party. Sounds like they had permission to hunt previous years and this past year. You hunted the muzzleloader season. Fine and Dandy. So when did you tell them that they were only allowed to hunt the one season? Or did you not realize they were doing what they had permission to do?

Sounds to me if you would have better managed "your" hunting land, you would have known that there was a chance that they would be there. With it being the first year of this license, I can see how it could have been overlooked regarding the all-season. why couldn't you swallowed your pride, and hunted along side the other party and discussed the way it would work next year. Butmy guess is that you blew a left nut about it all as evident from your first post.

[This message has been edited by korn_fish (edited 03-14-2003).]