Whats so great about a carp

[High-ball]

Just stopped in to this Forum...whats the deel with those bottom feeders that gets everybody so excited...I remember as a kid we used to catch and kill em...i hope you guys are doing the same considering the amount of fish and water habitat destruction they are causing

------------------
"keep your line wet and your gun on the shoulder"

[Toad]

We're certainly not saying carp-- as other exotics-- aren't capable of causing problems in certain environments. But, I'll clue ya in, there are much greater threats to our fisheries than common carp. Now, if we wanna enter the realm of the present encroachments of the silver and bighead carp, that's a whole other story.

We love carp because they're a resource (fish) worthy of pursuit. They're supremely curiuous, intelligent and powerful creatures-- much more so perhaps than the glamour bass, muskie, trout, walleye of the world. Like brown trout, carp are here to stay-- good or bad. In many lakes and rivers, they've become an adapted and accepted part of the system. Why let such a challenging, powerful, potentially large, and uniquely beautiful fish go ignored?

The thought of throwing a carp (or any other living creature) up on the bank to waste and rot purely due to ill-conceived perceptions of which fish is or isn't desireable frankly makes a lot of us shake our heads in disbelief. Not only ignorant in my view, but illegal.

World's greatest sportfish? Considering their widespread popularity across the globe, it just might be a most appropriate title.

Finally, your description of carp as "bottom feeders" is no more true than assigning the same title to largemouth bass.

[Crawlerman]

Consider this: most "fish" in many of our lakes are NOT native; at some point in time they were introduced there way long ago when things like Smallmouth bass and Walleye only resided in the great lakes and Mississippi river system.

If we had only "native" fish; half of our lakes would have nothing but Sunfish, Bullheads, and minnows in them (maybe some Northern pike)

Also.. the raw strength of the fish makes them worty of sport; more so than Walleye for sure, and rivaling that of Pike and muskies. I've had 15 lbers that I could not control and have got me caught in logs numerous times. Having a 10lb fish strip off half a spool of 17lb test on a big game spinning rod is something else.

So hook a few of the bigger ones, and tell me it isn't a fun fight?

[Guest]

Highball
you wouldn't by any chance have something to do with the Mudshark crowd would you.

Theres been alot of antagonistic mail posted elsewhere on this subject by some members of the bowfishing community and this sounds familiar.

If you're not, then as an angler why not try something different and catch one - better fighting fish than many 'sport' fish.

As regards the view of them as a pest - how long have you got fella? Perhaps you can give some solid examples of carp causing habitat destruction that can purely and only be due to their presence. You might find that one hard as most scientists agree that the despoilation of many sport waters cannot be due to the presence of carp BY THEMSELVES. Carp, like many species, find a way to balance their populations and food needs - to do otherwise would not be to their own benefit after all. I would suggest the activities of man are far more injurious to waters than the inhabitants. You'll find many of the more sensible and informed bow hunters think the same way, by the way..

Anyway, its a free world - if you don't like it don't do it. Even if every fisherman in the US killed carp on capture it would have no effect whatsoever on the populations.

Hope this helps
Steve

[This message has been edited by englishsteve (edited 10-03-2003).]

[Crawlerman]

Right. An imbalance of ANY species in a lake often creates problems.

In normal numbers Carp are actually benefical to controlling Eurasian water milfoil and pond weed; etc. Better that then chemicals in my book....

We have the all too often stunted 3" sunnie problem in lakes around here; but another one is when a lake gets an abundance of small "hammer handle" Northerns; which will eat and deystroy most of what else swims in the lake.

So why not let them sit on the shore and di? Legalities aside. Don't get me wrong; I love fishing for Northerns and of course would never do that, to any fish; unless it was specified by DNR law. Think I made my point though....

[This message has been edited by Crawlerman (edited 10-03-2003).]

[Aquaman01]

High-ball -
I fish carp for the same reason folks fish muskie & flathead cats - the brawl.
Also, my wife & kids are learning to fish and when someone who has maybe a dozen sunnies under their angling belt hooks into a 5-15 lb. FIGHTING fish that just might spool 'em - they feel REAL good about themselves - as well they should. ANY 12 lb fish on 6lb. line is a good fish.

------------------
Aquaman
<')}}}}}><{
"The bow is set to distant shore,
then loss is gained and gains once more.
When beach is reached and sails are torn,
the journey is it's own reward."

[Ranckenstuff]

I'll tell you whats exciting about carp, is fishing a city lake for sunfish with a centimeter of a worm on there with a bobber, and setting a hook on a 10 pound carp.I caught my first carp on Lake of the Isles this spring... and i managed to make a little crowd around me cause i was shore fishing in a recreational area, AND my drag zipped like no other(Thats exciting) HiBall why dont you think outside the box and realize, people fear what they dont understand, and you obviously dont understand!

[MedicineMan]

Ok, I've caught carp before and they're a lot of fun to catch. But the are destructive. First off carp are an exotic species. The reason carp are a problem is the fact that they go into the weeds and root them out. When they do this, they release sediments. These sediments contain phosphorus, nitrogen, and lots of other harmful components. This items cause algea blooms. Which in turn lessens water clarity, so you have weeds growning shallower water than before. With less weeds, you loose dissolved oxygen. Without the oxygen matter on the bottem of they lake can't decompose properly, so the matter releases more phosphorus and nitrogen. Plus, with less dissolved oxygen. There is less habitat for fish to live in. The vegetation also hold sediments in place. In all, all of this things lead to the speeding up of Eutrophication.

[TonyCarpBoy]

So many myths... so much blame. lol

Carp are seldom the problem, they are simply able to take advantage of a good situation. In areas with healthy 'gamefish' populations, carp are kept in control and simply fill niches not filled by 'native' species. The great lakes are a perfect example. There are GIANT carp in Lake Michigan, the water is clear (thanks to a different exotic - zebra mussles), the native species and game species are thriving and there seems to be a good balance.

However, those nutrients that are getting mucked up by the carp were not put there by the carp. They were put there by PEOPLE and their sloppy lives. That tends to get ignored.

I am a realist. Carp are here, they are naturalized and they are the best fighting fish around that I can catch a ten pounder or bigger every week if I am clever. I fish for them because they are hard to catch and I feel proud when I catch one.

Tony

[High-ball]

Thanks medicine man, your absolutely right ...recent studies also show that carp are destroying waterfowl habitat.....if the carp is so great how come many state agencies and federal spend thousands to chemically renovate lake and ponds that have carp...im bnot the one who is ignorant here you guys need to call your local fisheries biologist.

[Toad]

High-ball,

I can appreciate (and even identify with) your misgivings over carp in certain lakes. But it's also somewhat shortsighted and simplistic to point your finger at carp, which, admittedly, can absolutely throw an aquatic ecosystem out of balance. The problem in these systems, which has been building for decades, remains the overabundance of nutrients. Many of these shallow, low-lying waters act as natural filtration systems for entire watersheds. A huge proportion of the chemicals (nitrates and phosphates from storm sewers, crop fields, lawns, etc) from surrounding areas eventually find their way into these shallow basins, which rapidly accumulate into very high levels. The carp, being an exceedingly adaptable fish, becomes virtually the only fish capable of thriving in such fertile, hypereutrophic environments, thus, overpopulating, and eventually stunting when food becomes scarce.

Beyond all this, more relative to waterfowl, aeration systems have been installed in many of these lakes, which means the fish rarely winterkill. This means they feed all winter long on many of the very food items (shrimp, larvae, etc.) relied upon by ducks. No food, no ducks. Suddenly, carp again become the scapegoat. See a pattern here?

All this given, we still come back to your original question-- why do we love carp? And it's got nothing whatsover to do with habitat destruction or other perceived problems. This fish is here to stay-- so we think we'll take advantage of the wonderful sport carp offer.

Do I personally wish carp (and certain other exotics) had never arrived? Yes I do. But I also think that condemning all carp in all environments for the destructive acts of a few is laughable. I mean, it's like stocking a small trout lake with muskies, then later on, once the trout have become muskie food, crying for a bounty on muskies worldwide.

-a friend called Toad

[Guest]

Medicine man
so carp destroy their own habitat? Sorry but this is just nonsense. We have carp lakes here full of them, they live in general harmony with other species and the effects you speak of regarding weed growth and deoxygination have less to do with carp than global, climactic and man made effects than a few carp grubbing about for food.

[mnfisherman]

Steve, Tony and other respectful carp fisherman don't waste your time trying to convince these ignorant people that carp are not bad.

No matter what you say (even if you have the facts) some people will still believe that carp are bad fish.

I mean, if carp kill all the native fish and wreck the lakes why do UK lakes have carp and yet they exists with the native fish without killing them all and messing up the lakes?

Keep in mind that they are not a native species of the UK yet they coexist with native species in harmony.

Guys, if they would rather fish for an amazing 3 lb. bass or walleye then it is their loss. We will be having a great time pulling in 10lb+ carp.

Even if they kill them as you all know they will never be able to get rid of all the carp and even if they stupidly kill a few there will still be plenty to fish for.

So don't waste your time trying to convince people that can't be convinced.

[MedicineMan]

Ok, 95% of the damage to lakes have been done by humans. But an exotic species isn't good for a lake. Some species do adapt well to there enviroment. Carp have adapted well, and we are never going to get rid of them. But they do cause damage, I've seen a school of carp go into a spawing area and just eat everything in site. Now take for example, some species coexist perfectly in their natural habitat. For example: bighead carp, ruffe, round goby, and zebra mussels. But these species cause havic in our waters. Everyone is talking about how bad the bighead carp is. But do you want them around because they are a good fight? These species are here to stay. But that doesn't mean that they are good for the waters that they are in. Now I am going to college so I can work for the DNR. I want to work in the fisheries department. I love anything related to biology, hydrology, and etc. I'm not one of these people who say things blindedly. I've studied the effects of fish on habitat, I use to fish for carp. They're a lot of fun. I always thought, what the big deal with carp. But now that I've research, I can understand now why people from the fisheries department look down on carp. mnfisherman, I don't appreciate being called ignorant. Yes, we disagree on the subject. But we are both intitled to our opinions. And just because we do disagree doesn't mean you have to insult anyone how does disagree with you.

[Aquaman01]

Hmm. I suppose that when looking at the tone of the original thread-starting-post, there was no way to avoid the confrontational tones this thread is taking on. Too bad.

I was trhinking about this today, actually, while driving back from a small lake near my home. This small lake (750 acres or so, I think) had those "sportfish restoration project" signs on it, and we did in fact catch fish. My kids and I caught several 1-2.5 lb. LM bass, a couple of nice sunfish and several junior versions. Fish were caught and I was happy...until I thought about it and noticed something was missing.

We had trolled cranks, 3/4 oz. spinnerbaits, 3-wayed spoons at various depths. We had hung a sucker under a bobber 3' down in 6' of water right next to a stand of bullrushes, a fat timberpile and a rip-rap wall. Sun and shade. Shallow and deep. Fast and slow. Not a single pike. Zero.

We had crawlers sitting on the bottom actually TRYING to catch a small bullhead for free bait and kept getting bass. Lots and lots of skinny bass. I'm not complaining - a 3 year old girl gets to handle a tail-walk from a 2 lb. LM bass on a snoopy-pole!? Dad likes that! But....

Resource management is great, and I suppose our increased demand for gamefish opportunities creates the need for stocking programs, but I feel that humans make very bad gods.

Invasive species suck - they make problems. Now those dang silver & bigheads are comig upriver and the proposed solution is a big electric wall. Grrrr. Truly a choice between the Devil & the Deep Blue Sea.
On one hand we have a nasty, invasive piscean echo of the Killer Bee making it's way upriver to devour our plankton and compete with native fry for food. Gotta be stopped.
On the other hand we have the remaining spawing and migration patterns (that haven't already been gummed up by the lock & dam system). These will also be halted by this funky cross between "shellds hooldin' ah sextee pahrrsint, kup-tinn" and the Berlin Wall.
Will boating over this thing charge my batteries, or just make me sterile?

Anyway - the point I'm almost making here is that any tampering can go bad - whether it's a lake engorged with skinny bass, or a river where the carp outnumber the suckers (native "bottom feeding trash fish" that are supposed to be there) because the waterways are too polluted to sustain the suckers. Humans make very poor gods.

Me? Heck, I'll fish any species - I don't care. I get kind of annoyed though, when I'm fishing for cutbait (suckers, mooneye, sheepshead) and the darn smallies won't leave my bait alone! Pesky things.

Rob

[Guest]

High-ball and MedicineMan,

You say you have every right to your opinion, but it would seem we do not!

High-ball, I read that article in the Star Tribune too and got a completely different take on the subject. Did you read the part about how the Carp wasn’t solely to blame? It would seem Bullheads (a native species) are also part of the problem. Plus, did you read the part where they said this is the third time they have “tried” to reclaim the lake. Seems to me its not working, maybe they should come up with a new plan instead of wasting taxpayer money on a doomed project.

MedicineMan, I hope you can lean from this example and become a better DNR Officer than the ones we have now. As to your non-native argument, most lakes are managed in this state with non-native populations of Game fish. It would seem that the word you are struggling to come up with is ‘Undesirable’ and the problem you are having is there is now a small group (and growing) of people who desire to catch Carp. I think the DNR will have to come up with a management plan for them in the future, don’t you? I wonder what they will blame poor water quality on when they can’t blame the Carp anymore?

Jim C.

[This message has been edited by Roughfishman (edited 10-07-2003).]

[Crawlerman]

Another thing on the matter is Carp have actually been USED by the DNR to control Eurasian water milfoil. Like it or not, most of the lakes in the metro area are infested with EWM to some extent or another; many of which SO bad it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to boat much than less fish in these lakes. In my opnion using carp to solve this problem is a LOT more natural than using chemicals.

[Guest]

Medicine
nice to see you do in fact have a relatively open mind on this subject. I personaly have no qualms with management of our environment in a responsible way with regards to native species and other 'outside' influences. As you rightly state, carp are there to stay and need proper regulation and monitoring. If, and I accentuate the 'if', they are responsible for environmental damage and an no other factors can be determined ( which I'm sure you realise would be very hard to pin down in such a way ) then appropriate steps should be taken.

Finlly it always puzzles me that peole take out their disagreements on the animal itself - nobody asked a carp where it should live.

Good luck on your course - and the same for your fishing
Cheers
Steve

[High-ball]

Medicine Man where are you going to school at. Im currently going to school for a degree in wildlife law enforcement. just curious.... To the rest of you I have caught many carp as a young child...and i do agree they are fun. And you also made a good point that carp and other rough fish are only a small percentage of the habitat destruction.thanks for the discussiion thoe..it was interesting hearing the other side

------------------
"keep your line wet and your gun on the shoulder"

[TonyCarpBoy]

There seems to be no room for a centrist view here. I am FOR native species and I fish for obscure or small or rough native fish because it gives me enjoyment. I WISH there were never invasive exotics. I dislike the fact that our waters are so damaged that we have to blame a single species for the problems. Humans are pretty stupid.

If you want to hate an exotic or two, hate Brown and Rainbow trout. Oh, did j'yall forget that they are no where NEAR native? They out compete native fish in areas that they are introduced (suckers for example). Wild populations (naturalized fish) will never leave the waters they are in now. I feel bad for the natives that will never have a chance to live. lol If you hate carp, you should hate smallies, brownies, rainbow/steelhead and even walleyes, depending on the water you are on.

BTW, I have no bad feelings for anyone here, I just like a good debate.

Tony

[TonyCarpBoy]

Hey medicine man - That is cool that you are going to school for such things. I was a biology major at the U of M and spent my last summer semester at the College of Biological Sciences Itasca Field Station. We radio tracked fish and a variety of small mammals, did metabolism work on forest plants and collected/studied herps and mushrooms. It was a great program. I though I wanted to do urban ecology graduate work after that but thought better of it.

The season is quickly waning but we should go fishing next spring when the spring madness begins.

Tony

[mnfisherman]

It is very unfortunate that the for the same reasons that the carp was brought to the US it is now hated for (The ability to adapt to new environments, the ability to grow very large in a relitvely short amount of time, etc.

[mnfisherman]

medicine man,

do not blame the carp for being here. Blame the dnr officers that came before you. They intentionaly brought carp and distributed them in the lakes.

Instead of saying how bad the carp are maybe you should promote them like the dnr officers before you!!! You said yourself that there is no getting rid of them so why not utiliize them as a chalenging and hard fighting sportfish?

[High-ball]

Thanks for the discussion boys. I now know the otherside of the story.

------------------
"keep your line wet and your gun on the shoulder"

[Roughfisher]

Hey, let's not forget about another AWESOME exotic species: The Ringneck Pheasant! Competition with the pheasant has almost caused the extinction of the Greater Prarie Chicken, but we don't try to systematically eradicate them. Personally I would rather be hunting Greater Prarie Chickens than pheasants, but some people love their exotic pheasants and I respect that. I love carp, and I love carp fishing. I think that in small, eutrophic lakes that have become ecologically unstable because of pollution combined with carp infestation, some form of control would be in order. Clean up the water to the way it used to be, and native buffalo, carpsuckers, and redhorses would drive the carp to extinction in these lakes and streams. Knock out the dams so the rivers can scour themselves back into riffly, silt-free water and watch the carp disappear. Sure, you'll never get rid of them completely, but you will make their habitat very small.