Shock colars for dogs?

[bigdog]

I have a Tri-tronics, I think it is a Upland model. Had for 3 years but haven't used it yet. Bought it mainly for the feature of a locator beeper that you could activate remotely. Debated using it on my last dog but after researching the collars and knowing that I can loose my temper at times, decided to have a pro introduce the dog and myself to the collar. Talked at length with Tom Dokken but didn't have the funding so the collar is still on the shelf.
My advice is to know yourself and spend the time learning how to train using the collar before trying it out, or invest in the Pro rather than risk ruining the dog.

[This message has been edited by bigdog (edited 01-12-2004).]

[Teach-D]

Whitetip is exactly correct. I do not think that people that use these devices in any way harm the dog's, (or at least 90% of them). I have been hunting with people that have them on their dogs, and people that don't have them on. Yheir is not a huge difference in the field. My cousins that are avid hunters have used them but no longer do. They still hunt with people that do it is a personal choice. If you work with the dog enough no matter how "knuckleheaded," the dog is a collar as this is absolutely unnecessary. Ninety percent of this is obedience training at a very young age, NOT hunting training obedience training. The hunting part of things have been there and will be there. I live in South Minneapolis and have a black lab that I have trained myself. Ninety percent of the training was done in the city limits taking the dog for walks on a leash and getting the dog used to commands that would be used in the field, (only a couple to keep it simple). I spent a day or two exposing the dog to gun sounds and equating that sound to fun, animals, retrieving, etc. Shock collars are not bad, but by no means are necessary!!

[LABS4ME]

Teach...describe "Harm"? Wanna come over and see my "Harmed" dogs? I train with a collar and occassionally I have to hunt with a collar and no matter what any one wants to say, the fact remains you WILL have a more dependable dog! Period! Why do all the reputable trainers use them? It's not to cookie cutter the dogs through a program... you'd actually do that without a collar and blame the faults on the dog. A lot of dogs that go through finished training will hav 6-12 months in with a pro, so it is not a short cut. Plain and simple in the WRONG hands, it can be a tool which is mis-used. But to blame it on the e-collar is like blaming a skil saw for cutting off your finger, when in reality it was you who wasn't using it correctly.

I know this is a fairly futile attempt to sway those who don't know the merits of a collar... but educating yourself on them and their use would be beneficial before faulting those who do use them. To generalize or styereotype (you stated 90%)all who use them and say they inflict pain and/or harm shows your complete ignorance on the subject...Some people will hold their dogs to a higher standard and demand excellence. I have friends who do not use collars and while their dogs are good hunters they by no means are in the truest sense "finished". even one break a day in the field can mess up an afternoon's hunt as birds bust out of range but 90% of the day went well...still doesn't sound all that successful.

Carry On! Ken

[This message has been edited by LABS4ME (edited 01-13-2004).]

[Teach-D]

Labs4me, I agree with you don't be so defensive!! I never said I had a problem with these devices. I said I think these devices in no way "harm" a dog, unless obviously it is used in the wrong manner. It seems to me you may be ASSuming that I have a problem with people using these as training devices. That is absolutely NOT the case! From my experiences in the field with my dog and other, "professionally," trained dogs that have these devices on it is six of one and a half a dozen of the other, (if you know what that means). It means they are not tatamount to having a great dog. I understand "professionals" use them I grew up about five miles from a well renowned trainer, (actually has many articles in local outdoors periodicals) that does use them. I have no basis to question the fact that he does use them and why he chooses to use them. I do know this if enough time is spent with the dog and some basic things are done with the dog at a young enough age these devices are absolutely not necessary. What did people do before these were invented? I am sure the quality of hunting dog before these things were invented pales in comparison to present time field "wizards" ?? In fact I will have one wrapped around my dogs neck when we are afield next year, if things go as planned I can have her make me a sandwich and fetch me a soda after the hunt!!

[duckbuster]

Teach: The bottom line is this: Things get better with time!!! Dogs are better today because of them, it's just that simple!!! Yesterday's baseball player would not be in the same class as today's. Rocket Richard would not be in the same class as Marian Gaborik. If you truely believe that a dog without the use of a collar is going to be as good as one with then I'm sorry to inform you but you are WRONG!! It isn't even close.

[scotty18]

duckbuster, Whoa there big fella. Do I understand you correctly? A dog using a e-collar is better than a dog without a e-collar????????????????? I thought it was training than made dogs better? When I say training I mean all the basic skills done the old school way, with collar and leash. Sounds like your saying all that hard work me and my trainer put into my dog could have been avoided by straping on a e-collar. I've been there once. NO THANKS. I'll just stumble around with my "poorly" trained dog. MY Llewellin was conditioned to the collar, for one thing, recall. In 25 hunts this fall I gave him one shock. That's all, just one. I attribute that to good training. My dogs no where near being finished, We're going back soon to continue training. One thing that won't be done is using a e-collar. One thing we agree on is a e-collar is a tool and can be abused just like any tool. I'm not going to use one because I'm putting time in to train my dog right!

Scotty

P.s. my dog picked up whistle commands without any training. Pretty smart dog!

[LABS4ME]

Teach...I apologize, after re-reading your post I see that you started out saying that collars are O.K., it's just with all your 90% stats along with the post going in the direction of no collar, in my simple little mind it seemed to be an all negative post. Again sorry, but to others who bash them my post stands!

Scotty you kill me...you are against the collar for a past mishap, but you stated you collar conditioned this dog and you did use it once this fall...but now it seems you again are against them, what gives? You gave the perfect scenario for collar use right there! Conditioned for one thing in which the dog is lacking, used sparingly and probably for an immediate correction. Now you say you aren't going to use it any longer, and I'm sure you won't attribute any of the dog's success in training to the time you used the collar. Just good ol' school training, sounds fairly hypocritical. I still don't get how people training without the collar feel choke collars, pinch collars, check cords, sit sticks, the back of the hand etc. are more humane than an e-collar. Ever stap a choke collar or pinch collar on your neck take off running and have a friend hammer you at the end of a rope? I've nicked myself at all levels of my collar and would do so again, but I'll never put a choke collar on my neck. If your dog doesn't need any of these tools and only needs a little sittin' down talkin' to, get me one of his pups, cause we can all use one of those!

Plain and simple if the "ol' school" approach was by all standards better...that would still be the way the MAJORITY of dogs are trained. I'm not saying you can't do it without the use of an e-collar...but you WILL be doing it more humanely and with better efficiency with a collar.

Good luck! Ken

[This message has been edited by LABS4ME (edited 01-13-2004).]

[This message has been edited by LABS4ME (edited 01-13-2004).]

[scotty18]

Labs4me, I think sometimes I should reply after my afternoon nap, then the stuff I write looks a little more coherent. Your right. I will still strap the e-collar on for hunting. I still think you will get a better dog if you put the time in "old school" then do the e-collar. If you have read my other posts, then you probably understand why I don't like to use e-collar. Now I know what you're saying about choke collars,etc. I probably shouldn't keep bringing my Llewellin pup up as an example because he does so well. I've never seen a dog pick up on new commands and different training so fast before. I don't know it I got that one in a million dog or if setters are just that smart. I grew up with labs and chessies. This is my first dog other than a retriever, so I just don't know.I had coon hounds for a while but they don't count. When we are at the trainers and he shows us something new to do, I swear I still don't believe he picks stuff up so fast. I've given up trying to teach him new stuff while out hunting. He usually teaches me. I'm convinced that it's my dogs willingness to learn and his intelligence that makes it so easy. I'm sure I'll never get this lucky again. By the way, I'll put you on the list for puppies. I did do my homework on this breed before I bought him. I won't get into bloodlines here, but Count Noble is in there and he does take after uncle Hank. Ok that's enough. I have to get back to work. I try not to stir stuff up to much, but when someone writes you'll get a better dog using a e-collar I can't help myself.

until next time,Scotty

[LABS4ME]

Atta boy Scotty! Good Post....just trying to clear the air...You're right, collars WILL not make a good dog, they only help in re-inforceing the good ones!

Good Luck! Ken

[Guest]

This topic is widely debated amongst hunters every where. I have been down both roads, to collar or not to collar. I had a Brittney that was my best hunter for both grouse and pheasant. It was my "best friend", we played and hunted. I bought another brit and was the worst dog ever bred. Bought a collar and used it the Wrong way and ruined the dog beond repair. Now I have a yellow lab, went back to being the "Friend" and has worked out great. I do use the collar on her while hunting to correct bad behavior(ie chasing deer), but on the lightest setting. There are times that collars are good, but don't misuse them for it WILL ruin your dog. I have seen it in my dogs and in others. Used correctly it will help in training, the best thing is to make a friend out of the dog, make it so it is fun to retrieve and hunt not a chore. Lets don't even go in to kennels or house dog.

[Guest]

Trained a couple of labs without collars, the second one was a real workhorse - the kind of dog everyone liked, friendly, fantastic retriever, birdy... Even with him, there were some times when I wished I had a way to "reach out and touch him". At the time, there was no money for a collar, so that was that. That dog's been gone for years now, and my hunting partners still talk about him, and what a pleasure he was.
My current lab is now 4, and I was starting to experience some of the same "selective hearing" issues that I remembered so well. At some times, when he thought the distance was safe, he would simply ignore a command, or worse yet, lift his leg on the nearest bush and go about his business. Obviously clear and knowing disobedience.
Close the distance by even a little, and suddenly the hearing returned, and he would rush to heel - effectively foiling any attempt to give him a little "come to Jesus" talk. He is one cunning devil! Forget check cords - he figured those out years ago.
Finally broke down and got a collar last spring - a cheap one that had a decent range and a fairly good warranty. After a brief period of conditioning, and testing the thing out on myself at various ranges and various settings, I tested it out for real.
Worked like a charm. The look on his face when he decided to head out with the neighbor dog - ignoring the whistle - was absolutely astonishing. The first time, he couldn't believe it - came back right to heel, and when he decided about 20 minutes later to "make a break for it" keeping a shed in between us to shield his movements, he got caught a second time.
What I couldn't believe was just how good that pooch's hearing really was! Suddenly, he could hear a quiet "come" from distances that I was amazed at.
Basically, I use the collar in limited circumstances, to accomplish specific goals, and have been pleased. While he sometimes wears the collar during fetch sessions, I haven't nicked him during that activity, and don't plan on doing so. The collar also has a tone on it, and I have been pleased with being able to get the dog's attention without whistling, yelling, or nicking him. He knows to look at me for further instruction when the tone goes off, and we can go after partridge and pheasants far more silently.

[duckbuster]

Scotty: You did understand me correctly. A dog being trained with a collar will in the end be a better trained dog because of it. Using a collar is a type of "training". All the hard work you are putting in with your dog is wonderful, in no means do I want to diminish your work. What I'm trying to say is the work with a collar will be done crisper, cleaner and with every bit as much go as a dog without the use of the collar.

There is one thing I don't understand from your side though. You say you won't train with a collar but yet you put the collar on the dog when you hunt. This doesn't make sense to me. If your willing to nick the dog during a hunt why not during training?

I appreciate the civil banter on this subject, please don't take my thoughts personally.

I'm still waiting for an e-mail from you by the way.

[scotty18]

Duckbuster, Don't worry about offending me, like I said I'm participating on these topics to learn. I have learned a lot expecially the e-collar topic. Ok as far as what I meant about training was we did all the basic obedience and the start of the field work with leash, check cord, etc. Then my trainer and I did some e-collar conditioning. I am still a little afraid of what happened to my other dog. At that time I only felt confortable using my e-collar for one thing, Recall. With all the information I'm getting I have started to rethink my position on collars. To be honest with you, I think I can finish my dog without one. But only because my dog is easy to train. We are going back for more work this month. I will be going back with a more open mind about collars.

Scotty

[scotty18]

duckbuster, you have mail!

[scotty18]

Ok now that you guys have opened my mind a little, I have some questions. Beeper vs bell. This fall I put a bell on because my dog is mostly white and after it snowed my dog was like a ghost in the woods. But it seemed like the sound of the bell would flush already spooky grouse? Also I see some of the new e-collar come with a "page" button. That sounds interesting. Anybody use one?

Thanks,Scotty