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[Dave]

I'll say a word or two If you see a fence sitter like SpikeRoberts, just grab his shirt and pull him over to our side and ducT tape him in Let's not make this forum like the DNR Forum. Keep some humor in our lives, too. My views are not in order of importance. I'm just going to write

Grants from OEM's were sent to some ATV clubs in MN. The thought was billroads placed on highways (in strategic spots, and I believe Spider Lake was one) expressed "Stay on the trail".

ATVAM newspapers (and other newletters from other OHV groups)always state the same thing (stay on the trails.)

Some riders do stop others on trails to point out the consequence about going off the trails.

Was IS acceptable damage? A trace of a track is damage in the opposing side's eyes. That's not rational to me.

What is a wetland??? We had this discussion in great length last year over on the DNR Forum , which included that John Reynolds guy from MRR. (He logs in as "john_fishes on the DNR Forum). Not all wetlands are sensitive and need protection. Nobody ever did clearly define a "wetland" because there are hundreds of definitions. Which do we use?
A "wetland" to the opposing is just that, anything with moisture; even after it just rains and it congregates on trails. I think there has to be some "relaxing" on their definition of damage and wetlands. Like the Dr. Waters who has the land near the Snake River where a trail is proposed. 100 feet of vegetative buffer is not enough????? Our DNR isn't that dumb. Mr. Waters bought land close to state land just like the people's homes near airports. The "Sink Hole" shown in the paper is only about one acre of land.

MANY businesses up north promote ATV riding. It's what pays their bills during summer months. Up north businesses need that.

Riding during hunting hours. Not an excuse but, I view it the same as speeding on a highway. People will do it. In our area, 9 miles east of Mille Lacs, last season was the most I ever saw a CO. He did tag some for riding hour violations. I also view a hunter who walks 30 yards from my stand, at 6:50 am, the same type of, I'll just say, disturbance. I've had deer under my stand when a wheeler rode by. (I'm about 75 yards from the designated ATV trail) Deer stayed put, no problem. Not saying an excuses. People should abide by laws. I do.

I think allowing "cross country" travel at the start of the ATV creation was handled OK by the DNR. They saw a need for ATV trail systems in the future. It's much easier, for everyone, to place trails in already open to riding than try to reopen areas further down in time. Now, the trail proposals are, I believe, completed. Trails would've been opened and other areas closed as trail systems grew. The "scramble areas" now are overcrowded. Riders need to spread out.
There is only two areas I know where riders really congregate, Spider lake and Red Top.
"Cross country" travel does not really really exist in my eyes. There is no ATVer that is going to take off across a section of forest. The expensive machines would get damaged and so would the rider. Not saying afew wouldn't do this. The opposing makes it appear that cross country travel is a normal occurence. It's not.

Will trails systems work 100% to keep straglers of nonriding areas. I'd be lying if I said yes. You know it won't. Just like any other law; poaching, speeding, littering.
Will it help? I belive it will. It'll spread 'em out over the state. Many south central and southern riders travel up north. Trails are proposed in southern areas too and that would open it up so as many riders won't go up north.

Challenge areas like spoke about in the paper is what some areas ned. They spoke bad about it in the paper but that's what it's designed for OHVers. Red Top, a designated area, and it still gets covered as damage.

Put into perspective, 1500 miles of trails accounted for less than .5% of state land available to MN. Yes, half percent.

There's tons more oil and gas being dumped (dripped) from outboards in lakes than ATVs. Anyone can realize that.

The market is driven by 'utility" machines, ot sport machines. Utility machines aren't any louder than a lawnmower. Much much quieter than piped trucks we pass everyday on our streets.

Designated trails are closed from Nov to April. That's 5 months out of 12 already.

Iride the Red Top trail quite often. Usually don;'t see a walker and nobody has ever flipped me the finger in 20 years. Never confronted by hunters when I see 4 out of 5 groups with one in that area.

Parents are/should be resposible for kids behavior, even on machines.

Tickets should be issued but by who? You know the COs are being pounded already with duties. How does our lakes become trash sites? The CO's can't be everywhere.

Policing others is hard. (Like policing the speeder that just passed you on the highway.) Can something be set up?. Possibly. It's been talked about before. Hard to give "authority" to a public volunteer "officer", (like me, a regular rider) to give out citations. A lot of red tape in the government.

Hmmmm.....my fingers are getting sore. I have to quit for awhile. This is too long already. Thanks.

[Dave]

Oh, one more thing before I forget. MRR members (and others like them) were included in the trail planning process with the DNR. The DNR thought some of "their" proposals/ideas were not very rational in regards to sharing the forests. Those people stopped coming to the meetings. The trail process continued. Their choice to drop out.

The Moose Walk trail proposal that instigated the lawsuit against the DNR from MRR, was halted because the trail still consisted of a "wetland" (again, what IS a wetland) size of .25 acres. Not very rational in my eyes.

Rare butterflies have been brought up also. But, MRR guys must have some rare insects in the grill of their trucks at times. I don't see them putting their keys away to protect those. That's waaaay overboard for me.

[SpikeRoberts]

Robert, Dave, & Benny,
I appreciate the respectful responses and will take your posts into consideration as I continue to ponder this issue. You've each provided some good points to think about. For now I'll probably remain on the fence and give it a wait and see (please don't try to pull me off and duct tape me though )
By the way, Birkenstocks make for some great footwear but they really aren't very practical in the woods (my attempt to keep things light as well)

Spike

[Dave]

Fact....over 16 MILLION acres of state forest land and OHVers use less than 1%. Does this put it in perspective?

[vikingtom]

Let's put it this way. 50 percent of the time an atv rider will see a mud puddle off a trail. Bet ya he goes mudding. Then someone goes by and says to hisself "self that look fun" self comes back and says" self, you're right" Ya tear it up and don't fix it and there it sits. I have a atv, and if someone tears my driveway up. Out comes the rake and the rat IS going to fix it.

[Dave]

vikingtom, as an ATVer, I can understand the frustration about the driveways getting ripped some. I don't really have a solution. Maybe, make it legal to go up the ditch and around the driveway?? That may present a hazard for vehicles (autos) on the road thou. Any suggestions you see besides eliminating ditch riding?

[Ely Lake Expert]

I am amazed how fired up some of you guys are about this topic. I ride my wheeler alot and I don't think they do near the damage some people say they do. If someone went and rode around on your nice lawn and ripped it up I would understand why you would be [PoorWordUsage]ed,but people riding on trails in the country should be allowed to have there fun. I will admit if I see some mud I am gonna hit it and play around in it. It does not damage the environment like these"green people/tree huggers" think.

Everyone has there own opinion, just some of them I don't agree with.

I live not to far outside Gilbert where a new atv park was put up. It opens this summer and what I have seen of it, it looks nice. I hope there aint gonna be people out there complaining about it. Things like this should be fun for people who use and they should respect it. For the people against it, they should mind their own business because we don't bother them when they are having their fun.

Ely lake expert

[Dave]

No disrespect ELE, but, if you see mud where you're not suppose to be, please try and stay out. That's why we're in the mess we're in. That Gilbert OHV site is pretty cool. You'll turn red but it has some challenging stuff.

[Benny]

Dave , your not just kidding about turnning red.As I said in an earlier post, I grew up riding in those mine areas and still have ore stains on the wheeler.I never made it to Gilbert but we did make it to Chisholm one year just by taking a whole bunch of different mine roads.Many of those roads inter conect even between the different mining companies.Some people down here in the cities don't realize the extent that the mines are and were up on the Iron Range.I grew up in Pengilly it is 25 miles west of Chisholm yet we were able to get there with only a few public raod crossings, which were illegal to cross at the time with a running motor.You had to shut it off and push the bike across the road, try that with those 600 pound machines!!
Benny

[Benny]

One thing I do want to stress to anyone who is going to ride the minning areas up there!
Some areas are OFFLIMITS don't ride there if the park service blocked it off.There are a few areas that are national parks,we don't need to show the world that some ATV's can't stay out of the closed parks.
But also as important, there are MANY dangers in those areas.Like 800 foot sheer drop into a 500 foot deep mine pond.Old abandoned equipment that will jump out at you when your going 70 mph.Be smart and ride safe, find a spot that looks to be envirnmentaly safe to rip around in but make sur you know the area before just ramming through.
I have seen a 1985 ATC250R go over one of those cliffs, lucky for the guy we knew of a navy seal who still did some diving and he got his wheeler back.It cost him some cash though.
Be safe ,Benny

[This message has been edited by Benny (edited 03-04-2002).]

[Surface Tension]

How many of you guys ride your ATV during Grouse season? What goes there your mind when you pass a hunter thats on foot? Does it bother you? Cuz when you do it just screwed his hunt up. Why dont you stop and tell him you dont give a crap either? Do you teach your kids this is the way to hunt?
I dont like people that road hunt from cars either but at least there not ruining someone else's hunt. Please dont give me the line that it realy dosent hurt anything to have a wheeler drive by,it's BS.
If our DNR hasnt the balls to ban ATV's during hunting season I wish they would do the same a deer and limit the hours you can ride. You cant ride a ATV on WI. state land. Is this what we need? The anti's have enough to bitch about and you ATV hunters give them more.
P.S. I own 3 ATV's .

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 03-05-2002).]

[Dave]

Come on now Surface Tension, try and use some calmness here. It's been good till your post. What goes through my mind? "Hmmmmm, he's hunting around here, I'll go somewhere else."
Are you talking about just riding past the hunter or possibly hunting from the ATV; which is illegal? (you went right into road hunting from a vehicle so I'm not sure your meaning) Would it screw up your hunt if I walked past you on the trail? I bet it would a lot more cause if I was walking past, the grouse wouldn't be there for you later for sure.
I often see grouse while riding. They sit along the edge. Some flush and go 20 yards. Some just tuck in as I ride by. I walk back to watch them sometimes and they sit there. Sure, some even fly off farther into the woods. What kind of talk do you mean?

There's already a time restriction to ride during deer season. Before and after legal shooting time and 11am-2pm.

[Surface Tension]

Dave I am calm. Being passed by an Atv is the single most complaint by hunters. Please dont try and blow it off as no big deal. Not to mention the fact it's unethical to shot game while riding one. Of coarse only people that ride ATV's to shot game will argue that point. Note I dont us the phrase hunt from ATV's. You ask what do you do if passed by some one walking? I havent had any one that dumb try it.

Yes I know snowmobil's and ATV's can only operate between 11 and 2 while during deer season.Thats what I would like to see for ATV's during small game season also. Its either that or the DNR will ban them all together. Which I dont want to see happen.
Until the ATV's stay off the trails during Grouse season you will not have the support of the Sportsmen.

[Dave]

KGM, that's the real question about "what is" a wetland's state of protection. And, one that I'd trust the DNR to decide.

Surface Tension, sorry, but I'm having a real tough time folowing what you're trying to say.

You're right, I think it's unethical to shoot from an ATV.

You wrote: "You ask what do you do if passed by some one walking? I havent had any one that dumb try it."

What are you saying? I asked if someone walked past you on the trail while you were hunting. What do ya mean nobody has been dumb enough to try that. You think everyone should "hang back" so you can walk the trail first while hunting? What if you met someone coming from the opposite direction? Do you dam them out for ruining your hunt? Maybe the guy doesn't even want to hunt that area and is just walking through. Would you have a problem with that?

[SpikeRoberts]

I don't have anything new to add to the discussion at this time but I want to commend all that have been participating in this thread for their level-headed and thoughtful responses regardless of their particular stance. The discussions here are far more reasoned and reasonable than those on the DNR site. It proves again what so many others have said about the quality of fishingmn.com and its members.

[Ely Lake Expert]

Dave,

I guess I did not read everything you did. If there is mud I shoud stay out of I do stay out. I was being more general. I just like mudding. When ok, I always hit the mud.

Surface,

Sometimes I do ride the wheeler during grouse season, but where I ride it is either private or very untraveled public land were I know the people with hunting shacks. If by chance I do see someone on the trail, I turn around to go somewhere else and let them have that trail. As far as wheeler scaring birds and ruining a hunt, I don't believe it. I have gone by places, came back 5 minutes later and shot birds. I don't think wheelers scare them one bit! They hide in the brush when the hear one or fly then come back, thats all.

Ely lake expert

[Surface Tension]

Dave, If I drive to a trail head and there's a car parked there it means someone is hunting that trail and I move on to the next trail. Why would anyone hunt a trail with someone else on it? Would I bitch someone out if they were to walk past me, by all means. Not only is it not safe, its unsportsmen like. When someone is hunting I stay clear of them. Are you saying its ok to crowd or walk up and pass someone hunting?

[Guest]

Actually, I'm rather surprised that ATV use is that restricted during deer season (I don't deer hunt). Sounds like everyone agrees that that's a good law. And, I doubt that ATVers would put up much of a protest if there were some hours of operation restrictions on state land from October 1 to November 30th.

However, I think this type of restriction could be taken further. How about all boaters can use paddles only during daylight hours because I think canoers number one complaint would be boats with motors.

Trust me, if groups like the MRR get an inch they will take a mile. Just keep thinking about scenarios like this, and you'll imagine one that could affect you as an outdoorsman. That is, of course, unless your outdoor activities involve nothing motorized, no firearms, and no fillet knives. Then you have nothing to worry about.

[Dave]

ELE, was just making sure you stay out of trouble

Surface Tension, we probably come from two different hunting ground type? Mine is 9 miles East of Mille Lacs. Plenty of state forests. And, plenty of hunters.

The area where everyone parks is actually a parking lot. So, everyone has to start at the same point. Some go around the swamp to the right, some to the left. Some walk the forest road south deeper and then go north. Some start from the north and go south. We all meet at one time or another. The only way to get back deeper, besides walking,
is to drive an ATV on the forest roads. (The gates are closed to regular auto traffic during those times)

If you'd dam someone out for walking in the forest hunting and they happen to come up on you, I guess we really are different. How do you know they weren't there first and came (walked) a mile or so? I would NEVER chew someone out for being out hunting in the same woods as I. I don't own it. I think that's ridicules. And, I don't know anyone who can see through the woods to the other side.

There's also more to hunting than walking on the trail.

[SpikeRoberts]

Bornofice,
I need to respectfully disagree w/ your post. I participate in activities that involve firearms, outboard motors, and filet knives and have absolutley no worries that tougher restrictions on ATV travel would have any effect on these activities.
Every issue needs to be discussed in terms of its own particular merits, good or bad. Bringing facially invalid, irrelevant slippery slope arguments into the ATV discussion offers no value to the debate at hand. Rather, it only obscures the real issues and prevents the search for resolutions to the legitimate concerns raised in the wake of the rise of OHV use.
Only when (probably never) and if someone raises questions about the general use of outboard motors outside the BWCA, would it be appropriate to discuss such a matter. Before that happens, dragging it into the ATV argument is nothing more than irrational fearmongering.

[Biggestfish]

I was not going to reply, But these groups like MRR DO want to limit all forms of motorised activities. Yes this is a debate on ATV use, and bringing up the use of filet knifes is a bit far out, I think Bornofice was just trying to make a point. But beleive me these groups really dislike any activities were firearms are involed. And we have to all stick together... Boat owners, snowmobile owners, ATV owners, firearm owners, and the list goes on. All in all we have one thing in common a love of the outdoors. I beleive there is a solution that would make everyone happy. IMO a trail system would be a good start, If that was done the rest of the forest area could be closed to ATV use. That also would make catching the outlaws much easier, Everyone would know if a ATV was is the right area or not. Everyone has to remember that if you are out on public land you may have to share you day with someone else using the same land.

------------------
Just having Fun.
Love to Fish.

[Dave]

The inclusions of any gas powered recreation examples is relevant to this ATV discussion, I think. Basically, Bornofice is recommending to look at the main source of the ATV opposition, MRR. I dont have MRR's URL handy here but, if you look at their main purpose, it is for Peace and Quiet. And, you will be asking for help from some of us sooner than later.

ATV use does need some more control/enforcement/education. How do we do it? Suck up all the OHV money for enforcement and how would the trail system be built? No trail system equals crowded areas which equals possible problems.

Biggestfish, the intent of the legislators was exactly that. Leave forests open so it's accessible to trail building easier. Get a trail system in place (which we yet don't have because of opposition and lawsuits, etc, etc). After people have a place to go, areas could start to be closed off if needed.

ATVs are not going away.

[Surface Tension]

Dave where I hunt were there isnt crowds. If I see someone I know where they came from. We dont walk up on people hunting here. I guess im lucky to hunt where I do. Bornifice is right about groups tring to take away what we have. We do need to stick together but the way ATV's are allowed to operate during Grousr season is a hard pill to take. I feel ATV's already queered that for me. Get ATV's off the trails during small game season and I with alot of other sportmen will join your fight.
Thanks for letting me express my view.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 03-06-2002).]

[Dave]

That's the difference, Surface T. We're use to seeing quite a few people, strangers at that, while out in the woods. I haven't had the luxury of knowing, "who's who", vehicle wise. We have met some guys over the twenty years in this section of forest and have became good friends during the season.

ATVs are a common sight in our area. Just different parts of the state I guess.

[Guest]

I really think outcome on this issue will be determined by the actions of a few people, and once again it will be that small group of 'rule breakers'.

Both my father and father-in-law are farmers, and every winter deal with the same issue. They can either work with the local snowmobile club and let them run the trail accross their land, or they can turn them down. If they allow the trail, it is posted, and hopefully people with stay on or near the trail. Unfortunatly it also brings more traffic. If they don't allow the trail they don't have the traffic, but for some reason a virgin hayfield is just too tempting for those few snowmobilers. Then, after a few people ride around in the field others feel they can too and not feel bad about it.

The same thing is going to happen here. The majority of riders are responsible. They stay on the trails or in fairly stable areas. But there is a small group that thinks they can go anywhere. And there is the group that thinks that if they see tracks, and somebody else went there, then it is OK for them to go there. Eventually there will be an uprising. Yes, there might be ~150,000 ATVs. But there are millions of Minnesotans that do not have one. All they see is the damage left behind from the few trouble makers.

The problem with the question of 'What is a wetland?' is that with out really knowing the entire area, you cannot determine if it is a 'fragile' wetland or just a small marsh. Two wetlands may look very similar, but one might have a direct tie to another body of water.

The DNR has a difficult task. Instead of just a trail system. I would like to see a trail and AREA system. It would have trails through most of the park, but have other areas of the park that were open to all ATV traffic. You would need to stay on the trails eccept in the designated areas where you could roam around a little bit. These areas could be on a 5 year rotation (5 on/10 off) to allow regrowth and repair. There would be other areas of the park that would be foot traffic only.

There does need to be some balance in a resolution, but that balance I think will could be push the MRR's way if a few trouble makers can't control themselves. Even if a great trail system was established there are the few that feel they need to go off the trails to have their fun.