Planting apple trees

[Scott K]

I am going to my cabin this weekend to plant a few apple tree's. I have planted some in previous years, but between the deer, and the lack of rain, I havent had much success in keeping them alive.

They will be in an area, that most likely wont get watered very often, other then rain, and maybe a once a month, trip there.

With the lack of watering, would it by wise to have them in a partially shaded area, so the soil stays a little moister?

Or plant them in full sun? Any other tips that may help them survive? I have fence to put around them to keep the deer, and other critters out.

[Nainoa]

When it comes to deer, I've found that one tall fence is less effective than 2 short fences. (They had the idea of possibly getting stuck between them.

The ideal would be a 4 foot fence and a 3 foot fence, spaced 3-4 feet apart with raspberries growing in the middle of them.

I would personally go with two, 50" rabbit guard fences, burried 6 inches into the ground and then put raspberries (Domestic store bought, or wild black caps if you can find them) growing in the middle.

The Raspberries will in time come to use the fences as guides containing them and giving them structure, while also serving as a spiney deterant.

You could do the same thing with wild prickly ash, but they have no addition value and are frustrating to work with when transplanted wild.

When it comes to location, while you don't want blazing sun on an open plain, Apples actually don't like having "Wet Feet" They tend to prefer well drained soil as it is.

Almost all plants prefer morning sun to afternoon. So if you're going to choose a spot for partial shade, worrying about water... I would choose a spot that has good morning light, right up to early afternoon and then evening shade.

Then I would mulch it like crazy... Including finding a newspaper that uses organic soy inks (Most do and you can find out by a quick call), shred it up in a paper shredder and put that down 2 inches thick as the first layer of your mulching system... This will help keep the base soil level moist, without keeping the bottom roots drenched.

Also when you plant, in accompany to the standard fruit tree fertilizer, that you probably already have bought, I would go and get something high in phospherous (Like you would use for garden flowers) Both Miracle Grow and Shultz make one... Shultz "Bloom Plus" is the highest phospherous number.

When you dig the initial hole to plant them in, and water the hole, sprinkle some of the phosphorus rich fertilizer on the sides of the hole before planting.

This will encourage root growth in the first year, and a broad root base will help the apple trees to grab a more diverse range of soil moisture through the season.

That's at least what I'd do ^^^^

[Scott K]

Thank you for the detailed info. I will try all of this.

[Nainoa]

No problem... One thing I've learned over the years is that it's something new EVERY YEAR, everywhere I've lived or at least put down some roots in my life has been where Forest Meets field, and this always means, WOODCHUCKS, Coons and Deer. (Well and skunks too to be honest)

One thing to be mindful of, if you do choose to involve some brambles in your perimeter, if you decide to go with locally transplanted black cap raspberries, make sure you go with mature ones.

In the early spring deer will tend to make snacks of the young growing tops of forest black caps before the shoots harden into thorny canes.

Assuming your county extension is cleared for it (Which it should be, but I'd check just to be sure) you can also go with Gooseberries)

Gooseberries won't help you the first year, but they'll be productive in year 3 and 4.

Prime Jim and Pime Jan black berries will grow anywhere in Zone 4 and the deer should ignore them as snack potential since they won't be habituated toward them like they would be towards local black caps

Those are just your "Alternatives" to the easy bramble cover of plain old Domestic Raspberries you can buy in soil packed cains at the nursery.

Something else to keep in mind down the line when the apple trees start producing is to plant sunflowers near by.

True sunflowers are Mildly alleopathic so you don't want to plant them too close... BUT one of the big problems with Apple trees are insects. Well the sunflower attracts many of the insects that prey on unripe apples, and they will actually hold straight wars with each other on the sunflowers, while leaving the Apples as a secondary consideration.

You'll have to do something like that in order to have ANY harvest, once the trees come to maturity, there isn't an insecticidal soap in the world that will handle a full month of rains and still work against insects.

Heck I have a hard enough time keeping them off the 9 apple trees in my orchard and I can straight up SEE the trees out my bedroom window!

[delcecchi]

Apples want pretty near full sun. Make sure the fence is significantly higher than any snow drifts. I found that one out the hard way this winter when the bunnies took all the bark off an apple I planted like 5 years ago, starting like 3 feet off the ground.

You may not need to spray if it is a long way from other apples and you practice good sanitation. If cedars are in the area, look for varieties that are resistant to cedar apple rust.

Dwarf and Semi Dwarf trees are easier to pick and prune.

[eurolarva]

Most nursery's sell white trunk protectors for younger trees. I would get these as well. We have three apple trees that are 5 years old and when we take these off something keeps chewing on the trunk.

[Nainoa]

I had some black corrigated plastic tubing left over from the old place, so I moved it up with me and used it as a tree wrap.

I've had them in desperate winters work on the tree wraps or the white tree guards... But this last winter, even with a rabbit apocalypse going off in my woods... They never once got through that black tubing.

Not sure what the cost difference is between that black tubing and the regular white stuff though.

In a pinch you could also wrap it in chicken wire. Just make sure there is a good gap between chickenwire and tree trunk so they can't get near the bark at all etc...

[Nainoa]

Something else to consider that is very important with apple trees is making sure you are pairing with the right cross pollinators.

Just to make sure you're not glossing over it... But Apples will do MUCH better when cross pollinated by a sympathetic cultivar.

For instance, Honeycrisp, does better when crossed with Golden Delicious or Red Rome, than say another Honeycrisp.

You also want to hedge your bet's here... Because you don't want to buy just any old apple tree... If you were to say plant a Macintosh with a Honeycrisp... The two BARELY pollinate at the same window in time and soil temp... So you might have entire years where they just miss each other on flowering.

A lot of times you hear people talk about how "Apple trees take a year off of producing."

While this can be true for very mature apple trees... In middle aged and young apple trees, it's often simply the case that they set a poor amount of fruit because they were planted with a poor cross pollinator, and the two only had a few days of mutual pollination as one was coming out of flowering while the other was coming in etc...

End of the day, do a little research on what types to cross pollinate with what types...

[Dotch]

Much of the taking a year off of fruit production can also be traced to environmental factors. For instance, if the fall is dry, you have a heavy fruit set that year and neglect to water the tree, expect your production to be off the next year particularly if the spring is also dry, pollination is disrupted by cold conditions (lack of insect activity), frost nips the blossoms off or both. These factors were primarily responsible for the short apple crop in this area last year not only for individuals but in orchards as well. Keep in mind, bees and flies are mobile and carry pollen with them. How far depends on the species and temperature. How well the cross pollination works could also depend on what kind of apples and flowering crabs may also be in the area for some folks. Interesting to note that pears are not necessarily one of the honeybees favorites. Can't say I'm surprised as the flowers smell like some of the liquid fly bait we use. There do tend to be a lot of flies on them however.

Some info on adapted varieties for growing zones:

http://fruit.cfans.umn.edu/home-fruit/applespears/

Some info on pollinating bees:

http://fruit.cfans.umn.edu/pollination/

[Nainoa]

Good points all!

Crab apple is something to strongly consider. Crab apple is sort of the Promiscuous cheerleader of the apple pollinating world.

Putting one of those in the wild apple plot is a quick and easy solution to a lot of cross pollination problems.

[Scott K]

How far apart can they be and still pollinate well? 100 yards? to far? I was thinking of planting a couple on each end of my land. I could do a crab apple.

[Dotch]

Should be fine. They're pollinated by insects. They'll find 'em when they bloom.

[Scott K]

Well I bought 3 Honey crisp, and one flowering crab apple. I will be planting them Saturday, I bought the fertilizer, and bought the Shultz's bloom plus. I will pick up some plastic drain tubing for them after I plant them. I hope they take off this time. Is it better to plant them in the fall, or spring? I was thinking of planting more either this fall, or next spring, to get a variety out there.

Thanks everyone for the great info!

[Dotch]

Either time of year should work. One potential advantage to fall planting is the trees are able to make use of spring moisture right out of the chute. Watering them in, protecting them from varmints and as Nainoa pointed out, mulching them so they survive to that point would be crucial especially as one moves north. That said, I don't recall planting any of our fruit trees including my beloved peach tree here in the fall. One problem has been finding the varieties I want in the fall locally. Sometimes there may be some buys especially in the TC but here we kinda see the same trees that no one bought in the spring or selection is limited to varieties we already have. I like seeing what I'm getting and picking what I like as far as structure, roots and shape as opposed to what someone ships. Others may be fine with that but if there's a problem, I'd like to be able to discuss it face to face rather than deal with the run around on the phone.

[Nainoa]

Spring is way better for planting since it will give the apple trees the full growing season to establish themselves and root in. In fact a lot of reputable nurseries won't even sell you bare root apple trees this far north after say mid June.

When it comes to distance you can plant them from each other. While they will pollinate at rather significant distances. (I've had a mature tree pollinate with another mature tree from up to 100 yards away before) It's also worth noting that apples release ethylene compounds into the soil in an effort to sort of "Communicate" with each other (For lack of a better term)

A Juvenile Apple will flower later if another apple tree is farther away.

If they are say 100 feet apart they will flower for the first time sooner than if they are say 100 yards apart.

100 feet apart they might (For example) flower in year 4... But 100 yards apart, they might not flower until year 6.

At least this is what was explained to me by an old woman with a bottany degree earned in the 1950's)

One of the things that is nice about planting them in an intelligently spaced stand is that when they flower they make a really beautiful space.

When we moved out here to the 10 acre ponderosa and I put in the first orchard (About the same time my wife found out she was pregnant with our first) I specifically planted a bunch of dwarf apples and plums, along with rhubarb, raspberries and blue berries so that it almost makes a triangular enclosure, with a view of sunset over the ridge.

I figure either it will be my meditation spot or 12 years from now when my daughter is convinced that I just don't "Understand" her, she'll have a beautiful flowered grove to retreat to each spring.

[Dotch]

In the fall you are likely to only find containerized trees like we see locally. There are some increased risks with fall planting as one moves north but when it's done properly, those risks can be minimized. With some of the deals one runs across, the rewards may be worth the additional risk. As I've always been advised by my resident nursery person, save your receipts.

[Bowfin]

In planting apple trees which may not get watered, not get much tending and may experience browse:

I've dumped a bag of black dirt in hole to mix with native soil to increase soil moisture holding capacity if soil is droughty. Plant at the same depth as the root collar or same depth as grown in the pot but leave a depression so surrounding water will drain into root area.

Found that a fence at least 5 foot high is a must to protect from deer.

Found that white-corrugated tubing is a must around the stem to protect from rabbits and mice. White is much preferred over black as black will really heat up during spring days which may cause water to start flowing up the trunk prematurely in the spring during the day - then temp drops below freezing during spring nights causing water to freeze and the bark to burst (i.e. sun scald)

I prefer spring over fall planting so tree will root in and become stable before soil freeze (higher clay soils can actually push root ball out of ground sometimes with a fall planting).

I've had good survival with crab apples in wooded situations using the above methods.

[delcecchi]

Some Apple varieties are more prone to every other year bearing, especially if thinning the fruit is neglected. The setting of flower buds is triggered by excess sugar. If all the sugar from the leaves is going to make fruit, then few flower buds will be made for next year. I have observed the biennial bearing many times on my apple trees because I am not very diligent at thinning, to put it mildly. It is hard to remove like 2/3 of those cute little baby apples.

I wasn't good at growing carrots or beets either.

[Scott K]

Well I planted 4 trees, in pairs of 2, with the pairs about 100 yards apart. I will probably add a couple a year, as long they show signs of growing. I put up just 1 barrier fence around each tree, about 3 feet out from the tree. I am planning on doing more, more didnt have any more fencing. I will be back to check on them in a few weeks, and hopefully they take off.

[delcecchi]

I don't know about there, but here in Rochester you have until winter to protect them from thumper and bambi and mickey (he isn't a vole, but that I don't know of any movie voles.)

[Nainoa]

Yeah the only time, outside of winter, that you really have to worry about rabbits going after fruit trees is during an extreme drought.

They'll tend to go after blue berry bushes first, but when low growing foliage starts to go dormant in dry conditions, they'll turn to the bark of moisture rich trees like apples, peaches and plums.

[Scott K]

Well right now my biggest concern is a wildfire. I dont think my fence will protect the apple trees from a forest fire. It is about 20 miles north right now. But I am watching it closely.

[flipper]

Yeah the only time, outside of winter, that you really have to worry about rabbits going after fruit trees is during an extreme drought.

They'll tend to go after blue berry bushes first, but when low growing foliage starts to go dormant in dry conditions, they'll turn to the bark of moisture rich trees like apples, peaches and plums.

My apple trees must be extry tasty. I have witnessed the bunnies going after them any time of year and not just under drought conditions. Hardware cloth around the trunk is a MUST in my opinion for the first several years.

As for Bambi, he seems particularly fond of Honeycrisp trees, again year around.

Good luck with your trees!

[Nainoa]

Yeah wild fire is a really controversial topic when you think about it. I mean our forests essentially need wild fire in order to maintain a healthy and diverse eco system. But with all the fragmentation of land ownership we have now it causes so much property damage.

I have a stand of pines on my property here that has been ignored by all previous homeowners since 1972. The forest floor is littered with fuel for a fire.

Last fall someone drove down the dirt road that rings it and pitched out a cigarette butt. I just happened to be out in the woods and saw it, so I got it before it could potentially light. But I'm seriously thinking about biting the bullet and raking up some of the needles and hand picking the deadfall.

If that stand was to light, there's no way it wouldn't make it up to the house.

[Scott K]

I was going to bring this up last week, but forgot to, I planted 4 trees, 2 of them took off well, all blossomed and look like a healthy tree, the other 2 look like sticks, with possibly buds starting to form on the branches. Should I be concerned with the 2 that didnt take off? Should I replant them? Is it to late to re plant them? Give them more time?

This was from 5/25 weekend. I do plan on going back up in the next couple weeks, and hope the other 2 took off.